• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:

    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!

    2. Fourteen thousand people can't be wrong.

    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.

    4. See 1 through 3.

    Come on, register already!

Question Darla and Connor

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
So, I have a question to run past you guys. We have been shown that vampires can love. In the words of Drusilla, they can love well, if not wisely.

Now we know that Angel rejects this idea, and as Angelus , he seemed incapable of loving anyone. However, we have other examples with James and Elizabeth, Drusilla and Spike, and of course, Spike and Buffy.

I feel that Darla did love Angelus. As evidenced in The Trial, she loved herself more and was willing to leave him to die to save herself, but she has shown IMO a very strong attachment to him. Julie Benz has said that to Darla, Angel is her soulmate. She was deeply broken up when she lost him, and I honestly feel she loved him very much.

Now in Lullaby, she discovers that she loves Connor more than anything, and she realizes that’s it’s Connors soul that allows her to feel it. She’s afraid she will kill him when he’s born, and she loves him enough to kill herself to let him live.

What I’m wondering is, would she really have killed him when he was born and she survived? Do you think it’s possible, seeing how in her own way, she loved Angelus, that she could still love Connor?

I just don’t see why she wouldn’t have some attachment left for him. He is her son after all.

What do you guys think?
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,615
Location
Australia
It's of my personal opinion that without a soul, Darla is like Angelus. She doesn't love. She doesn't feel. She has no empathy and no moral compass. During The Trial she is human, she has a soul, and so she does feel for/love Angel at that point. But as we see in flashbacks of their earlier relationship, she views Angel more as her "mate" rather than as a "lover" and she is perfectly willing to leave him to die in order to save herself (evidenced when she hits him over the head and leaves him in a burning barn with Holtz and his men closing in).

Vampires can and do love but Darla and Angelus don't, not without souls, and so I believe that Darla would not have felt anything for Connor once he was born, unless they found some way to give her a soul. She probably would have tried to eat/kill him, even more so if she saw how much Angel loved him.
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
During The Trial she is human, she has a soul, and so she does feel for/love Angel at that point. But as we see in flashbacks of their earlier relationship, she views Angel more as her "mate" and she is perfectly willing to leave him to die in order to save herself (evidenced when she hits him over the head and leaves him in a burning barn with Holtz and his men closing in).

When I referenced the Trial in my OP I meant this Particular flashback. Her sense of survival is stronger than attachment.

I don’t think she’s like Angelus really. I think he surpassed her when it came to cruelty, she looks surprised quite a bit on how monstrous he is. Don’t get me wrong, they are definitely a match made in hell, but In every flashback she seems much more emotionally attached to him than he is to her...she’s genuinely devastated when he is souled, and she even takes him back hoping to rekindle their relationship during the Boxer Rebellion. She left the Master to be with him, and centuries later she’s willing to once more try to bring him into the fold ( btvs episode Angel) she even tells Buffy that she loves him.

Now, It may be that her love Is not love in the sense that we know it, but I think we see many examples that Darlas weakness seems to be Angel.
 
Their relationship is fascinating to me :)
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,615
Location
Australia
Their relationship is fascinating to me :)
Oh me too, they are my second-biggest OTP in the 'Verse because of all the different sides and aspects to their relationship.

I do agree that she seemed more attached to Angelus than he to her, but I still don't personally believe that it was love. I think she saw Angelus as her equal, her partner, her "mate", and she bonded to him and definitely found him to be exciting and challenging. But without a soul she never loved him, at least to my mind.

-EDIT-

And whoops, just realised I mis-read your original post re: the Trial, my bad, I thought you were claiming that she did love Angelus.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,358
Age
21
Sineya
I don't believe what she felt for Angelus was love, rather admiration and attraction. And as evidenced by that, I just don't think she had the qualities that are necessary to love a son. Nothing she shows capable of feeling is selfless or caring. I don't actually know that she would have eaten him, but if she didn't she probably would have abandoned him. And in my opinion that's how it should be. It means she made the right decision and had a purpose. I prefer an inspiring sacrifice over a pointless tragedy any day.
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
25
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
I think Darla didn't love at all without a soul. It's something which made her and Angelus well matched. They both rejected love, and had a mutually beneficial partnership.

Angelus killed all of his family when he was turned, but tortured his father the most because he had always disproved and scorned Liam. Darla, likewise, knows that without a soul, she would attempt to destroy the person she loved the most - Connor - like she attempted to destroy the person who made her feel the most - Angel - after being turned a second time.

It's also important to note that, as humans, both lacked the love they desired. Like Darla says, the way vampires were as humans determines their actions and personalities as vampires. What's interesting about Darla is that, despite scoffing at the idea of love, she still craved complete adoration and attention from The Master and Angelus, which is the soulless equivalent of desiring love.

When Angelus was close to her, they both reveled in destroying lives together and living out their sordid affair, but when Angelus gained a soul, she was extremely upset and told him to leave her forever. However, when she learned that Angel loved Buffy, she swore that she had been loved by Angel first, and became obsessed with Angel again.
Darla mourned the loss of Angelus's companionship and the power she used to have over him, because she's selfish and possessive. She hated that Buffy got a part of Angel she never had, and, in her mind, she turned that jealousy (a very soulless trait) into a matter of love. She spends seasons waxing poetics about how she loved Angelus because she likes to romanticize her past (which Angelus and Spike did as well). Deep down, Darla knew she'd never loved him. She was moved by her human desire to love, which wasn't possible as a vampire, and got twisted into a possessive and attention-seeking behavior.

Like Darla, with a shared soul, says in Lullaby, she'd never loved anyone until Connor and knew, quite rightly, that she'd destroy him (possibly without even killing him) if she reverted to her soulless self. Connor being Darla's child was a perversion of her body, and nothing else. A vampire isn't supposed to have children or to love them, and Darla would've responded brutally to Connor without a soul. Let's not forget that before Connor developed a soul, Darla tried to find a way to kill him.

TL;DR: Darla without a soul never loved anyone, and with a soul, loved Connor. Her soulless actions are motivated by self-interest (to live, to be turned, to exact revenge, and to have Angelus as her plaything again) which sometimes came across as romantic, but that's just the way she spinned things. She would've 100% killed Connor. Angelus didn't give a damn about his son on in season 4 either, despite all the love he had as Angel.

And I need to sleep so I'm not sure how fluent or relevant this was.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,043
Location
Texas
Black Thorn
Like Darla, with a shared soul, says in Lullaby, she'd never loved anyone until Connor and knew, quite rightly, that she'd destroy him (possibly without even killing him) if she reverted to her soulless self.

I agree with this. At the end of the day the person with the best perspective on Darla and her ability to love (with or without a soul) is Darla herself. As a human and as a vampire with Connor's soul she has the memories to draw from of how she felt when she was a soulless demon and I believe her if she says that she wouldn't be capable of loving Connor.

In the comics, Spike, now ensouled, tries to tell Buffy that as a demon he couldn't love, not really and he calls it a bastardization of love. (Buffy tells him it's not true but, again, I believe Spike here).

Darla, Angel and Spike are the only vampires in the verse who have been influenced by a soul and can give us perspective on what it means to love with/without a soul so I tend to believe them when they say as demons, they couldn't love. I believe them more than Dru who has never felt what love is like with a soul.

Darla mourned the loss of Angelus's companionship and the power she used to have over him, because she's selfish and possessive.

I agree with this as well. Angelus is Darla's most precious possession.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,036
Age
74
Location
rome, georgia
Now we know that Angel rejects this idea, and as Angelus , he seemed incapable of loving anyone. However, we have other examples with James and Elizabeth, Drusilla and Spike, and of course, Spike and Buffy.

James and Elizabeth obviously loved each other, and Spike was capable of loving, both Dru and Buffy. Joss confirmed that some vampires are capable of loving, but it is extremely rare. Darla was attracted to Angelus as a lover, but I would call that more lust than love. Dru was devoted to "Daddy" in the same way that a puppy is sometimes devoted to its master, even though that master as often abuses it as cares for it. (Come to think of it, that more accurately describes Spike's relationship with her more accurately than love, doesn't it?) I don't think that that could be called real love.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,611
Age
31
So, I have a question to run past you guys. We have been shown that vampires can love. In the words of Drusilla, they can love well, if not wisely.

Now we know that Angel rejects this idea, and as Angelus , he seemed incapable of loving anyone. However, we have other examples with James and Elizabeth, Drusilla and Spike, and of course, Spike and Buffy.

I feel that Darla did love Angelus. As evidenced in The Trial, she loved herself more and was willing to leave him to die to save herself, but she has shown IMO a very strong attachment to him. Julie Benz has said that to Darla, Angel is her soulmate. She was deeply broken up when she lost him, and I honestly feel she loved him very much.

Now in Lullaby, she discovers that she loves Connor more than anything, and she realizes that’s it’s Connors soul that allows her to feel it. She’s afraid she will kill him when he’s born, and she loves him enough to kill herself to let him live.

What I’m wondering is, would she really have killed him when he was born and she survived? Do you think it’s possible, seeing how in her own way, she loved Angelus, that she could still love Connor?

I just don’t see why she wouldn’t have some attachment left for him. He is her son after all.

What do you guys think?

I don't think Darla would've killed Connor, but the fear that she might was enough for her to sacrifice herself rather than risk it. In nature, animals have an instinct to protect their young, some animals have even shown the capability to mourn despite not having "souls" by human definition and some have been shown to mate for life. Because Connor was the first of his kind (a human child born to vampire parents), there is no way of telling how things would've gone afterwards because it's never happened before. Darla could've been really protective of him or she could've killed him.

The only thing that is certain though is that, if Darla had kept Connor, then she would use him to keep Angel tied to her.

It would've been really interesting to see Buffy's reaction to Connor. Angel left her because he couldn't give her children and wanted her to have a normal life, yet here he is now fathering a child with his ex. Darla would certainly rub it in Buffy's face.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
1,364
Age
27
Location
United States
It would've been really interesting to see Buffy's reaction to Connor.
I am disappointed that we were robbed of onscreen scenes between them.

Angel left her because he couldn't give her children and wanted her to have a normal life, yet here he is now fathering a child with his ex. Darla would certainly rub it in Buffy's face.
It would kind of be like the Angel episode again, but without guns.
 
Top Bottom