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Dawn

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
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Messages
7,252
Sineya
I feel for Dawn in the Series . She finds out that she wasn't real for most of her life & being 14 & already inscere was really out there .
Plus & I thinking here Buffy & Dawn didn't get along at first . The reason I saying that is I don't think pre Slayer Buffy would have
done anything with a much younger sister & after becoming a Slayer would have hidden what she was from her as well as her Mom .
And losing her whole family in a number of months I have to say it a bit of a shock she didn't have a breakdown .

And the way she acted in the 6th season . Her sister who died to say Dawn didn't want to be around her . Of course she would act out .
People a lot older would have done the same thing if the person they loved was acting like that . Plus we saw hardly anything about how she was around people beside Buffy & Buffy friends .
 

Faith 2019

Woman verses Woman
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I feel for Dawn in the Series . She finds out that she wasn't real for most of her life & being 14 & already inscere was really out there .
Plus & I thinking here Buffy & Dawn didn't get along at first . The reason I saying that is I don't think pre Slayer Buffy would have
done anything with a much younger sister & after becoming a Slayer would have hidden what she was from her as well as her Mom .
And losing her whole family in a number of months I have to say it a bit of a shock she didn't have a breakdown .

And the way she acted in the 6th season . Her sister who died to say Dawn didn't want to be around her . Of course she would act out .
People a lot older would have done the same thing if the person they loved was acting like that . Plus we saw hardly anything about how she was around people beside Buffy & Buffy friends .
I have to agree with you. She was 14 years old, but, she was the key too and was really a few days to a few weeks to a few months old until Buffy died to save Dawn. When Buffy came back alive, all talk about Dawn being the key was dropped. Second, all her friends she hanged around with were already Buffy's friends so she really did not have friends her own age. I blame how she was written into the series then the character development or the actor.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
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7,252
Sineya
IT healthy for people to have friends her own age but Dawn had none except her sister friends who were 4-5 older then her & had adult lives
The only friend we see that Dawn has was Janice Penshaw who was attacked by a vampire & then her family moved.
 

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
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Black Thorn
I thought Michelle was a great actress on the show, especially considering her age. She has a genuine and vulnerable way of portraying Dawn that I can empathise with. I like her more as the show has distanced itself with time too. She's realistic as an awkward teenager without pulling the awkward teenager card out for the obvious, other than maybe the scene with Xander where she has some ice cream on her face.

I tend to like characters a bit more when the boring default opinion is to hate them. Why so much fervent hate for a fictional character anyway? They're not real.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
That one thing I never could understand . Dawn was acting like a real child but people wanted her to be like the rest of the cast when it
would have been so wrong to do so . Michelle was a great actress on the show, There no real reason to hate her but people just do.

It a bit like Kennedy . A lot of people hate her . But in that case they hated her for replacing Tara so there a reason there .
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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There no real reason to hate her but people just do.
I disagree. The whole of Season 5 revolved around Dawn and how she was sooooooooo important to Buffy. Buffy seemed to become bitchier and Dawn was clearly written to be a younger character in the first few episodes so to have a teenager acting out those scenes was just awkward and cringeworthy eg the ice cream scene. Season 6 was a bad season for Dawn, I don't think it was entirely Dawn's fault as there were other things as well, but it just seemed like she made Buffy's life a lot harder than it already was. None of the scoobies really helped Buffy in Season 6 (with the exception of Tara but that was late into the season), but it just seemed like Dawn wasn't even trying to help out at all, she was all "me, me, me".

It a bit like Kennedy. A lot of people hate her . But in that case they hated her for replacing Tara so there a reason there .
I think people hated her for her general attitude and personality rather than just the fact she was replacing Tara. Kennedy started aggressively pursuing Willow from the moment she arrived despite it being clear that Willow was still grieving Tara.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
How was Buffy acting bitchy?

DeadlyDuo

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@NeonSlayer I was flicking through "Real me" and Buffy's attitude just seemed kind of bitchier compared to the earlier seasons, especially in regards to Dawn. Also when she punches Spike in the nose AFTER he's given her the information she wanted and he told her to lay off the nose, it just seemed an unnecessary thing to do.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
I disagree. The whole of Season 5 revolved around Dawn and how she was sooooooooo important to Buffy. Buffy seemed to become bitchier and Dawn was clearly written to be a younger character in the first few episodes so to have a teenager acting out those scenes was just awkward and cringeworthy eg the ice cream scene. Season 6 was a bad season for Dawn, I don't think it was entirely Dawn's fault as there were other things as well, but it just seemed like she made Buffy's life a lot harder than it already was. None of the scoobies really helped Buffy in Season 6 (with the exception of Tara but that was late into the season), but it just seemed like Dawn wasn't even trying to help out at all, she was all "me, me, me".
QUOTE]


I don't see Buffy becoming bitchier . You have to remember she lost her mom & that must have really shook her up .
And in Season 6 Dawn was a mess to begin with . Her Mom dead . Her Dad didn't want her & Buffy was dead but she had to
prentine she was alive. And the only people she could talk to was her Sister friends who had their own problems .
And lets not forgot Buffy wasn't really there for most of the season . The whole letting Spike beat on her just so she can feel
& I surprised Dawn didn't hurt her self by acting out . Inatead she wanted Buffy back but she didn't know how.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
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Messages
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Sineya
I don't see Buffy becoming bitchier . You have to remember she lost her mom & that must have really shook her up .
And in Season 6 Dawn was a mess to begin with . Her Mom dead . Her Dad didn't want her & Buffy was dead but she had to
prentine she was alive. And the only people she could talk to was her Sister friends who had their own problems .
I disagree. The whole of Season 5 revolved around Dawn and how she was sooooooooo important to Buffy. Buffy seemed to become bitchier and Dawn was clearly written to be a younger character in the first few episodes so to have a teenager acting out those scenes was just awkward and cringeworthy eg the ice cream scene. Season 6 was a bad season for Dawn, I don't think it was entirely Dawn's fault as there were other things as well, but it just seemed like she made Buffy's life a lot harder than it already was. None of the scoobies really helped Buffy in Season 6 (with the exception of Tara but that was late into the season), but it just seemed like Dawn wasn't even trying to help out at all, she was all "me, me, me".



I think people hated her for her general attitude and personality rather than just the fact she was replacing Tara. Kennedy started aggressively pursuing Willow from the moment she arrived despite it being clear that Willow was still grieving Tara.
.
 

NeonSlayer

Potential
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@NeonSlayer I was flicking through "Real me" and Buffy's attitude just seemed kind of bitchier compared to the earlier seasons, especially in regards to Dawn. Also when she punches Spike in the nose AFTER he's given her the information she wanted and he told her to lay off the nose, it just seemed an unnecessary thing to do.
That wasn't Buffy being bitchy. That was her Slayer Spidey sense rubbing against the monk's spell. She was the only one who could feel that something was different. Something deep in her knew Dawn wasn't there before, that she'd been inserted into her life. In No Place Like Home when Buffy did the "pull back the curtain" trance and realized Dawn was part of a spell, she wasn't shocked or disbelieving. Her immediate reaction was "You're not my sister" and threatened her to leave her family alone. It's like if she always had her own room at boarding school them woke up one day with fake memories of Kathy having been there since she was 5 years old.

Buffy was plenty aggressive towards Spike in s4. She said more than once she should gag him. She made fun of Drusilla dumping him. In Doomed Xander & Willow said they brought Spike along because if he's left alone he'll try to stake himself and she asked "And that's bad because?" Spike was an unrepentant mass murderer who even in s4 teamed of with the Big Bad. By The Real Me it had only been 3 months since Spike tried to tear apart the Scoobies. And in this episode he's the ex of the vamp who kidnaps her little sister.
 

DeadlyDuo

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That wasn't Buffy being bitchy. That was her Slayer Spidey sense rubbing against the monk's spell. She was the only one who could feel that something was different. Something deep in her knew Dawn wasn't there before, that she'd been inserted into her life. In No Place Like Home when Buffy did the "pull back the curtain" trance and realized Dawn was part of a spell, she wasn't shocked or disbelieving. Her immediate reaction was "You're not my sister" and threatened her to leave her family alone. It's like if she always had her own room at boarding school them woke up one day with fake memories of Kathy having been there since she was 5 years old.

Buffy was plenty aggressive towards Spike in s4. She said more than once she should gag him. She made fun of Drusilla dumping him. In Doomed Xander & Willow said they brought Spike along because if he's left alone he'll try to stake himself and she asked "And that's bad because?" Spike was an unrepentant mass murderer who even in s4 teamed of with the Big Bad. By The Real Me it had only been 3 months since Spike tried to tear apart the Scoobies. And in this episode he's the ex of the vamp who kidnaps her little sister.
Spike was in his own home minding his own business when Buffy stormed in demanding information. He gave her the information and she still punched him. Fair enough punching him until she got the information, but the punch after was unnecessary and just seemed like punching him just for the sake of it.

I still say Buffy came across as bitchy towards Dawn. Whether that was her slayer spidey sense doesn't really matter; at that point in time, Buffy didn't know that and neither did the audience. Buffy just seems different to how she was in Season 4, probably as a result of the monks spell, but the spell made her "bitchier" in my opinion.
 

NeonSlayer

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Spike was in his own home minding his own business when Buffy stormed in demanding information. He gave her the information and she still punched him. Fair enough punching him until she got the information, but the punch after was unnecessary and just seemed like punching him just for the sake of it.

I still say Buffy came across as bitchy towards Dawn. Whether that was her slayer spidey sense doesn't really matter; at that point in time, Buffy didn't know that and neither did the audience. Buffy just seems different to how she was in Season 4, probably as a result of the monks spell, but the spell made her "bitchier" in my opinion.
How did the audience not know? We watched the first 4 seasons so clearly something inserted Dawn into her family.

I think it says a lot that Buffy's patience towards Dawn increased upon finding out her origin. Had her spidey sense not been pinging, she would've acted more freaked around her instead of less upon learning the truth. The Scoobies didn't instinctually pick up on the changeling situation so acted normal around Dawn as if she'd always been there and it took finding out 5 months later from Buffy that Dawn was The Key to get them acting weird around her. It's like what happened with Jonathan in Superstar when Buffy was suspicious while everyone else was fooled by the spell.

Spike should've been groveling at Buffy's feet for not staking him. He was a soulless demon who slaughtered thousands of people and tried to kill her several times. As a character he's awesome but in their world he's a sociopath on a leash.
 
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Buffy does seem a bit meaner than normal in 'The Real Me' but for perfectly good reason. Almost every episode of Buffy we watch through Buffy's POV - but in this one, Dawn is actually narrating to us. Dawn is telling us the story of her mean big sister (who she is completely jealous of and wants to be like more than anything in the world.) It's the same reason we get ridiculously melodramatic BAngel in 'The Zeppo' - we are within an alternative character's POV and seeing a world we normally experience via Buffy through new eyes. And neither Dawn or Xander are as reliable a narrator as Buffy is. The way Buffy behaves in this episode is not really Buffy as she is - it's Buffy as Dawn sees her. Shouty and bossy and superior and with no appreciation of just how special Dawn is (as Dawn sees it).

I really liked Dawn when S5 aired (once I got over my suspicion both of her and the fact that the show was cheating). I hated her in S6 and then liked her again in S7. Now I love her all the way through - but I do hate the way she gets sidelined as the potentials start filling the house. Early S7 Dawn is my favourite Dawn.
 

DeadlyDuo

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How did the audience not know? We watched the first 4 seasons so clearly something inserted Dawn into her family.
Buffy didn't know Dawn wasn't her sister until she found out she was the key. The audience didn't know how Buffy suddenly had a sister, just that everyone accepted Dawn as Buffy's sister. Buffy's personality changed in Season 5, she was different to how she was in previous seasons., and in my opinion, her personality became more bitchy.

Spike should've been groveling at Buffy's feet for not staking him. He was a soulless demon who slaughtered thousands of people and tried to kill her several times. As a character he's awesome but in their world he's a sociopath on a leash.
By that logic, so is Angel. The only thing standing between souled Angel and Angelus is one moment of perfect happiness, though as we have seen there are also other ways of removing Angel's soul without the perfect happiness clause. Angelus killed Jenny then set everything up to look like a romantic evening so that Giles would find her dead body on his bed. Angel is older than Spike and is more likely to have a higher kill count, that's if he's not too busy psychologically torturing victims into insanity then siring them so their torment would last forever. In Season 2, Angelus didn't want to just kill Buffy, he wanted to destroy her.

Buffy loved Angel even though Angelus was still a part of him. She still loved Angel when he was Angelus (by that I mean she didn't stop loving him, despite knowing she had to kill him), and there is a sense that maybe Buffy was in denial about Angel's past misdeeds. He may have told her what he did to Drusilla and she may have found it hard to hear, but she can't truly feel how Drusilla suffered because that's not the Angel she knows.

Spike's chip made him practically harmless to humans and the scoobies often make a point about it. Spike can't defend himself against Buffy's punches because his chip prevents him from doing so. He was in his own home, minding his own business when Buffy stormed in and started punching him, he gave her the information she wanted to stop her punching him yet she punched after for no other reason than she could. Buffy has killed hundreds of vampires and demons, to them she is something to dread and fear, it's all about perspective.

The blue skinned demon from Season 3 was hired to forcefully remove Angel's soul, the only reason he didn't is because he owed Giles a favour for introducing him to his wife. That demon has at least one loved one (there might even be kids) but clearly is hired to perform shady business. That demon helped the scoobies and Spike helps the scoobies, should the blue skinned demon be "grovelling at Buffy's feet" for not killing him? Who knows what other things he has done.[/QUOTE]
 
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