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Debate of the week #1

What do you think of Scoobies' behavior when Buffy returns to Sunnydale ?

  • They felt abandoned, I understand them.

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • They have good reasons but they are too hard with Buffy

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • I don't understand them at all... #TeamBuffy

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
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#1
We inaugurate a new type of subject ! The debate of the week ;)

The principle ? We find a subject and discuss it in joy and good humor obviously. One argues as much as possible in the light of news / replicas and other elements given in the series or books or comics.

I declare open this first debate of the week : Is the Scooby-gang too hard with Buffy when she comes back after running away at the end of season 2 ?

It's up to you to debate !
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#2
I think the only one who is really hard on Buffy is Xander, and even he is hurting. The rest are doing their best. Willow is clearly going to apologise when she finds Buffy packing her bags again.

I refuse to vote. #TeamBuff&Will
 

flow

Scooby
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#3
Ohhhhh....that is complicated. I think, there are misunderstandings because of non-communication.

Willow restored Angels soul. She did that using a spell, that was dangerous for her. The spell must have worked, for all she knows.

The next Thing, that happens, is, that Buffy has disappeared, Angel has disappeared and the world has not ended. She has no clue, why Buffy is not talking to her, although, Angels soul was restored.

As far as Buffy is concerend, Willows last message to her was "Kick Angel`s ass". Buffy must think, that Willow is not going to do the spell again. She kicks Angel`s ass, because there is nothing else, she can do. And then his soul is restored in the very moment, where it is too late for her to safe him. She has to run a sword through her ensouled boyfriends heart instead of through an evil soulless vampires heart. She must feel betrayed. She obviously does feel betrayed. That is why she runs away, without leaving them a message.

The misunderstanding is - I hate to say it - Xanders fault. I do understand why he changed the message, Willow gave him and I believe, that he was right doing it. But the lie created a rift between Buffy and Willow and also probably between Buffy and Xander, because from Buffys point of view he belonged to the "Kick his ass"-Team and Buffy might even suspect, that he knew, Willow would try again, to restore Angel`s soul.

Xander on the other hand backed Buffy up in a fight and saved Giles life. He is the only person in the Buffyverse, who is fighting at Buffys side with no supernatural powers or fighting experience at all. He is nothing but a normal High-school senior. Still he fights. He does, what he is told. He enters a mansion, that is full of vampires and saves Giles life. And then ? Nothing. Buffys gone. No word. No thank you.

Yes, I understand, that they feel abandoned. I also understand, that Buffy feels betrayed.

The misunderstanding remains unsolved until season7. That is, what is really sad.

flow
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
I quite like you, Flow!

Professor Walsh

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Black Thorn
#4
Yes, communication, or lack thereof, is the be-all and end-all of this. They're just kids, muddling through, trying their best to make sense of a freaky world. I'm rubbish at taking a clear stand in questions like this, I can see why they react as they do while rolling my eyes and wanting to shake some sense into them.

This is how we are, though. So many conflicts, every moment of every day, happen because we are not communicating freely with each other.
 
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Black Thorn
#5
I think it was lack of empathy or understanding that brought it about moreso than lack of communication. Everyone assumed they knew what it was to be the slayer and how she felt simply because they were hanger-ons. No one was looking at it from Buffy's point of view, only from their own. That's not a communication issues.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
#6
I do not understand where they were coming from with the Welcome Home party; the context very obviously did not call for that. I think they should have tried to talk with her about it in a more civil, sympathetic way, but if that did not work, they should have dropped it. I don't think the Scoobies or Joyce had any right to call Buffy out for running away or be rude to her. When one of them has to kill the love of their life to save the world, they can bitch to her about being selfish. And yes this was all mostly Xander but Willow did not handle it well either. And Cordy had to jump in at the worst time possible and be Cordy.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#7
Now, I love Buffy, but I sometimes feel the show focused too much on her pain at the cost of the other Scoobies. In Prophecy girl, Willow has a breakdown after seeing the murdered students and the Three Little Pigs cartoon. Then she is almost eaten by a hentai monster that was scary enough to give Alyson nightmares. She used the memory of it to bring forth her "frightened face" in future episodes. Yet, it is Buffy who gets PTSD, breaks contact with the other Scoobies and comes back to scare them all with her cold and off-putting behaviour.

Willow had two substitute parental figures. The first one, Giles, mostly ignores or scold her. Jenny, on the other hand, appreciates Willow and lets her teach the computer class. Then Jenny gets brutally murdered by Angel. That does not stop Willow from risking her life twice to save Angel's soul. After all this, Willow does not even get to know that Buffy is all right after she wakes up from her coma. When Buffy comes back, it takes Willow almost 24 hours to sort out her feelings and speak honestly to Buffy. A horrible friend indeed...

I don't see Willow as being angry at Buffy at all. After Angel comes back from Hell, Willow immediately forgives Buffy both for keeping to herself that the spell she risked her life to cast worked and for keeping Angel's return secret. Not even Jesus would be so understanding....
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
#8
They were way too harsh on Buffy.
I felt so bad for Buffy in Dead Man's party. No one knows what she was going through except the viewers and Xander was very very awful in that episode. I'm team Buffy.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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#9
I tend to side with the Scoobies and Joyce during this episode. While I agree that attacking Buffy in such a public way was pretty crappy (and they probably were a bit too harsh on her) I understand their grievances and frustration with her, and I think everything had to come out in order for them all to move on.

Dead Man’s Party quite brilliantly showcases what happens when friends are not only separated for long periods of time but have feelings of resentment bubbling beneath the surface. I think the thing to remember when viewing this episode is that while we the audience know what Buffy’s been through and where she’s been and that she’s been fine, the Scoobies don’t. All they know is that Buffy went to kill Angel and then disappeared. She left with no warning, no explanation and no goodbye. They have watched Joyce and Giles stress themselves to the breaking point for months, they have seen Giles flying all over the country trying to find her and, as Willow points out, they also needed her over the summer, not just as the Slayer but as their friend. Who knows how many sleepless nights they spent, wondering where she was, worried about whether or not she was even alive.

As for Joyce, god knows what she endured over that summer. Her child was missing and she had no idea where Buffy was, if she was safe, if she was alive. Her misdirected anger at Giles is perhaps unjustified but very understandable, as Giles did help to hide a significant part of Buffy’s life from Joyce. And yes, Joyce told Buffy that if she left the house to not think about coming back, but honestly, I really don’t think she meant it. She had just been bombarded with a huge revelation and she was trying to get her daughter to talk to her, trying to keep Buffy safe, and Buffy got physical with her and stormed out. Joyce said what she did in the heat of the moment, never believing that Buffy would actually disappear. At the very least Buffy could have contacted her mother to let her know that she was alive and safe. I cannot imagine the pain and terror Joyce went through during those months, the anguish she would have felt at not knowing what happened to her daughter. No parent should have to go through that.

I know Buffy was going through a lot at the end of Season 2. Having to kill Angel right after he was re-ensouled must have been devastating. But in her grief, she acted incredibly selfishly. She just left, without thought to what her disappearance would do to everyone. She gave no thought to her mother, her friends, her Watcher and she let them believe the worst for three months and then returned, expecting everything to fall back into place. Not bloody likely.

Really, everyone kind of sucked in this episode. The Scoobies inviting everyone to Buffy’s house without checking with her sucked, as did their very public ganging-up on her (even if what they had to say to her was completely warranted). Buffy believing that everything could go back to normal and not even considering the hell she’d put them all through sucked. Joyce confronting Buffy in front of everyone sucked. Everyone just kind of sucked.

That being said, at the very least, this episode clears the air. Everyone gets their grievances out and once the big confrontation/showdown happens, they all move on quite happily. So, as uncomfortable and awful as certain events in this episode are, they had to happen in order for the characters to move forward and once everything has been said and done, the characters are able to heal and regain their relationships and friendships with Buffy.
 
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WillowFromBuffy
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#10
There is an old saying: Talk is cheap until you have to buy it back.

Joyce said she would throw Buffy out of the house if she left and Buffy had every reason to assume she was going to do what she said because after all, if you can't trust what someone says, you can't trust that person at all. There is no question that Buffy had to leave to kill Angelus without wasting time on an explanation and there is also no question that the harangue she would have gotten from Joyce would have been more devastating than moving out, which is what Buffy understood was going to happen anyway. The idea that people say things in the heat of the moment and therefore should be excused cuts no ice with me - the only thing generating the "heat of the moment" was Joyce because she wanted to turn Buffy's life into a game of dominance and submission with Joyce being dominant and it had to happen right now. Joyce had a pattern of being oblivious to everything so there was never going to be any point in talking to her. Joyce bluffed about throwing her out of the hose. Buffy called her bluff. Game over. Maybe if Joyce had told Giles or the scoobies that she threatened to throw Buffy out, they would have understood.

The scoobies never give Buffy a chance to explain what went on and why she left. They do know there were no further attacks by Angelus and the world did not get sucked into hell, so whatever she did was successful. No one has the right to demand someone stay with them without a contractual arrangement like being married to them. Maybe if they were concerned about the stress Joyce was under, they could have talked to Joyce or had Giles talk to her but nobody seemed to get beyond saying, "Poor me, she's gone". Joyce would have gotten notice of Buffy's expulsion, so she should have known about that at some point after she left. Maybe it would have been less stressful for the scoobies if she had told someone she was going but they would have tried to drag her back. Buffy had some thinking to do and when the thinking was of this nature, the first thing to do is get rid of all the people.

The best thing to come out of this is that Pat gets a shovel through the eyes - she has to be one of the most hated characters in the 'verse and she deserves it, giving bogus advice to Joyce and treating Buffy like a particularly stupid lapdog when she does return. The confrontation happens and no one moves on. No doubt Joyce blames Buffy for killing Pat. Do we ever see Joyce apologising for the chaos she caused with the mask in the first place? No, she thinks she can do no wrong. The scoobies show themselves to be the kind of "friends" who will point out everything they see as a failing in the loudest voice possible. Do they apologise for blasting Buffy? They seem to have the socialist attitude that they need Buffy therefore Buffy must do what they want. Everybody plays nice afterwards but we are beginning to see the Scooby edifice start to crumble here. Later on in "The Yoko Factor", we see Spike assess the situation correctly and he finds it easy to turn the scoobies against one another because the stresses in their relationships are obvious and easily exploited and they have never healed.
 
Spanky
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#11
When the public confrontation was going down, some party guests were even leaving because of how inappropriate the situation was. It seems like they had more respect for Buffy and wanting to give her some privacy than her actual friends did.

The originally planned meal would've been the perfect time for the scoobies to air their grievances and it seems like Buffy was even planning to use that occasion to clear the air, she asks WIllow and Xander at the party if everything was okay between them and they just brushed her off. The scoobies were the ones who decided to throw a party at Buffy's house without Buffy or Joyce's knowledge. Joyce invited Pat probably so she had someone to talk to whilst Buffy and her friends partied.

Joyce was scared of doing the wrong thing around Buffy in case she took off again which is the only reason why she allowed the party IMO. Seeing Buffy packing her bags brought everything to the surface. Willow and Buffy were clearing the air AWAY from the party until they were interrupted. It's very likely that after talking, Buffy would've put the bags away but was interrupted before she could do so.

Xander was totally out of order that episode though, he's the only one who didn't have the right to go at Buffy like he did. Willow screwed up by standing Buffy up, but at least she made an attempt to make things up with Buffy before the big showdown. Xander made no such effort.