• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

"Deceleration of involvement" S5 or S6?

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
The narrative was that it was meant as a punishment to Angelus to make Angelus suffer.

Angelus and Spike are completely different and happen upon their souls under completely different circumstances. Nevertheless, Spike admits in both Beneath You ("Angel.. he should have warned me") and Never Leave Me ("It's been so long since I had one") that he sought out his soul largely underestimating the impact it would have on him or what having a soul even meant. Having a soul did make Spike suffer.
So essentially Spike committed an act of self-harm in order to make himself more "acceptable" to Buffy, despite him not having a problem being soulless in the preceding seasons and ultimately is rewarded for said act of self-harm. This is the rub of it, they can't have it be a terrible punishment for Angelus and then treat it like a romantic gesture for Spike.

That aside, the soul was seen as a punishment for Angelus but that doesn't have to mean it's automatically a punishment for every other vampire.
I disagree. Vampires and souls are not supposed to mix. It's why the gypsies gave Angelus a soul because it is the worst punishment they could think of. They don't want to make him a better man, they want him to suffer with torment. Angel just made the best of a bad situation but that doesn't negate the fact that the situation was designed to be bad.

The writers can't give one narrative for the soul eg it's a punishment, and then try and tell a contradictory narrative eg it's a romantic gesture, just because it suits them

It's similar to the narrative they tried to pull with magic. In Season 4, magic is a metaphor for Tillow's relationship. The stronger their relationship becomes, the more ambitious their spells get. In Season 6, magic is a metaphor for drugs but then that doesn't apply in the next season. If magic = drugs which is the narratve we were given in Season 6, then Tara was Willow's pusher all the way back in Season 4 as she was the one encouraging Willow to try harder spells.
 

vampmogs

Potential
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
412
Age
31
So essentially Spike committed an act of self-harm in order to make himself more "acceptable" to Buffy, despite him not having a problem being soulless in the preceding seasons and ultimately is rewarded for said act of self-harm.
1) Spike didn't know that the soul would cause him so much suffering. He says this repeatedly in S7. Soulless Spike just felt it was something he had to have to make Buffy want him but he admits that he had no idea what he was really asking for and couldn't anticipate what it would do to him.
2) Would this surprise you? What exactly about soulless Spike's behaviour was ever particularly healthy? That doesn't make it bad writing.
3) It's still better to suffer with remorse then be a remorseless killer

I disagree. Vampires and souls are not supposed to mix. It's why the gypsies gave Angelus a soul because it is the worst punishment they could think of. They don't want to make him a better man, they want him to suffer with torment. Angel just made the best of a bad situation but that doesn't negate the fact that the situation was designed to be bad.
Yes but why is he suffering with torment? Why is it the worst punishment they can think of?

Angel: No conscience. No remorse. It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things that I have done... and care.

Gypsy Man: You don't remember... everything you've done for a hundred years. In a moment, you will. The face of everyone you killed... our daughter's face... they will haunt you, and you will know what true suffering is.

Spike:
You had a soul forced on you. To make you suffer for all the horrible things you did.

The soul is a punishment for Angel because it makes him feel remorseful for all the crimes he committed. If Angel had risen from his grave and immediately been given a soul there'd be no remorse, no guilt, no torment, because he'd have yet to have committed any atrocities. It's only because he killed without remorse for 100 years that the soul is a punishment for him because it gave him back his conscience and guilt and he then had to live with what he'd done. So why would a soul automatically be a punishment for a vampire if they hadn't hurt anyone yet? That doesn't make any sense.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Only your last paragraph makes sense to me.

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
1) Spike didn't know that the soul would cause him so much suffering. He says this repeatedly in S7. Soulless Spike just felt it was something he had to have to make Buffy want him but he admits that he had no idea what he was really asking for and couldn't anticipate what it would do to him.
2) Would this surprise you? What exactly about soulless Spike's behaviour was ever particularly healthy? That doesn't make it bad writing.
3) It's still better to suffer with remorse then be a remorseless killer
Whether Spike knew of the suffering it would cause him or not doesn't negate the fact that it is in essence an act of self-harm and one of which he is ultimately rewarded for. It's no different than if someone decided to carve the initials of the person they loved into their arm with a knife, it might be done with romantic intentions but it is still in essence an act of self-harm.

Giving Spike a soul was the writers trying to pull a get out of jail free card after the AR. They wrote themselves into a corner (because in general a character doesn't get any love form the audience for committing rape) and they realised they needed the audience to sympathise with Spike in Season 7 so they gave him a soul and trotted out the "he's different now" lines.

Yes but why is he suffering with torment? Why is it the worst punishment they can think of?

Angel: No conscience. No remorse. It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things that I have done... and care.

Gypsy Man: You don't remember... everything you've done for a hundred years. In a moment, you will. The face of everyone you killed... our daughter's face... they will haunt you, and you will know what true suffering is.

Spike:
You had a soul forced on you. To make you suffer for all the horrible things you did.

The soul is a punishment for Angel because it makes him feel remorseful for all the crimes he committed. If Angel had risen from his grave and immediately been given a soul there'd be no remorse, no guilt, no torment, because he'd have yet to have committed any atrocities. It's only because he killed without remorse for 100 years that the soul is a punishment for him because it gave him back his conscience and guilt and he then had to live with what he'd done. So why would a soul automatically be a punishment for a vampire if they hadn't hurt anyone yet? That doesn't make any sense.
Lawson seemed to have a remnant of soul left in Why we Fight after Angel turned him and he was miserable. Vampires and souls are not supposed to mix because a soul goes against a vampire's nature.
 

vampmogs

Potential
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
412
Age
31
Whether Spike knew of the suffering it would cause him or not doesn't negate the fact that it is in essence an act of self-harm and one of which he is ultimately rewarded for.
In Innocence Angel groans "Oh no..." when he realises he's losing his soul. In Enemies Angel, Buffy and Giles prevent Faith from successfully removing his soul. In Eternity Angel is horrified when he realises that Rebecca has drugged him and is going to make him happy. In Epiphany Angel is momentarily horrified when he expects to lose his soul after sleeping with Darla. In AtS S4 Angel is at first adamant that Angel Inc. cannot remove his soul to bring forth Angelus and then later begrudgingly agrees under the condition of course that they restore his soul after getting the intel they need. In Smile Time Angel is reluctant to pursue a relationship with Nina because he fears it could one day lead to perfect happiness and him losing his soul etc.

In your eyes, is Angel therefore not committing an act of "self-harm" every time he prevents his soul from being taken or expresses a clear desire to keep his soul intact? Angel's soul may be a curse but Angel also very much wants his soul and both BtVS and AtS depict it as a bad thing if the curse is broken. Which of course it is because without his soul Angel would be a mass murdering demon again. So I'm afraid I don't understand your moral objection to Spike choosing his soul when Angel chooses his soul all the time? It may cause him suffering and remorse but Angel undoubtedly prefers that then being a killer again. So of course it's a good thing that Spike chooses his soul over being a monster and the series is right to depict that positively.

By AtS S3 Darla also wanted to keep her soul and was heartbroken that she'd lose it once Connor was born because it would mean she couldn't love her child. Again, the series presents this as a tragedy, not an act of self-harm. What was an act of self-harm was Darla, literally, shoving a stake through her chest out of love for her child, and the series depicted that as a good and selfless act too.

Giving Spike a soul was the writers trying to pull a get out of jail free card after the AR. They wrote themselves into a corner (because in general a character doesn't get any love form the audience for committing rape) and they realised they needed the audience to sympathise with Spike in Season 7 so they gave him a soul and trotted out the "he's different now" lines.
They didn't write themselves into a corner. They thought up of the soul plot prior to even coming up with the idea of the AR. Whedon knew from the very beginning of S6 that Spike's arc would end with him getting his soul so that was a decision made long before the AR was even thought up. Whereas the AR wasn't an idea until later in the season and was actually a reaction to some of the audience sympathising with the character too much. You're putting the cart before the horse. Spike is even written as leaving to go get his soul at the end of Seeing Red, the same episode the AR happens in, so the soul plot was already in motion before the episode had even went to air. Audience reaction had nothing to do with it.

Lawson seemed to have a remnant of soul left in Why we Fight after Angel turned him and he was miserable. Vampires and souls are not supposed to mix because a soul goes against a vampire's nature.
Angel explicitly tells Lawson that he doesn't have a remnant of a soul - "I don't think it works that way, son."
 
Last edited:

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
1) Spike didn't know that the soul would cause him so much suffering. He says this repeatedly in S7. Soulless Spike just felt it was something he had to have to make Buffy want him but he admits that he had no idea what he was really asking for and couldn't anticipate what it would do to him.
2) Would this surprise you? What exactly about soulless Spike's behaviour was ever particularly healthy? That doesn't make it bad writing.
3) It's still better to suffer with remorse then be a remorseless killer



Yes but why is he suffering with torment? Why is it the worst punishment they can think of?

Angel: No conscience. No remorse. It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things that I have done... and care.

Gypsy Man: You don't remember... everything you've done for a hundred years. In a moment, you will. The face of everyone you killed... our daughter's face... they will haunt you, and you will know what true suffering is.

Spike:
You had a soul forced on you. To make you suffer for all the horrible things you did.

The soul is a punishment for Angel because it makes him feel remorseful for all the crimes he committed. If Angel had risen from his grave and immediately been given a soul there'd be no remorse, no guilt, no torment, because he'd have yet to have committed any atrocities. It's only because he killed without remorse for 100 years that the soul is a punishment for him because it gave him back his conscience and guilt and he then had to live with what he'd done. So why would a soul automatically be a punishment for a vampire if they hadn't hurt anyone yet? That doesn't make any sense.
In a sense you can if it makes more sense to you see both ensoulments as especially karmic punishments - and I love that Damage shows that. Angel in Damage says he couldn't take his eyes off his victims that he say breaking them apart both physically and psychologically as meticulously as he could as art, as proof of his genius and he derived pleasure from it and his dominance of them. He was a sadist in every sense of the word. Angelus voices a similar sentiment in Fool For Love so he was destroyed by those who devised the most painful, sadistic punishment they could devise.

Spike was obsssessed with slayers and there's more than a hint he got off on fighting and killing them but as Nietzsche pointed out you become what you fight and I don't think that just happens with monsters. Spike's inability to leave Buffy alone resulted in Angelus, in being chipped, in the break up of him and Dru, in her getting under his skin and he inflicted on himself something that changed him. Angel stans also say Spike doesn't feel enough guilt but he experienced pain to get a soul and risked his unlife, however 'selfish' his reasons - IMO they're a mix of selfish and unselfish - he wanted something from her but he also didn't want to hurt her again over something he knew he didn't understand. He felt the pain but it became manageable because Buffy understood why he did it. It's also I think an act of self actualisation and self awareness - he knew that he'd changed as a result of the chip and couldn't carry on as he was in the limbo between man and monster and choose to restore the man as he realised he needed to acknowledge that part of himself that had never entirely gone away. He didn't know how much it would hurt but he managed to find a way through that with acknowledgement from Buffy and find a way of integration. Angel did to but because he didn't dictate the terms of his own ensoulement he will always need a degree of torment to maintain his status as a champion and he's heroic because he accepts this. Spike is heroic because the man in him never died and he went through so much to regain his humanity. Angel and Spike aren't the good one and the bad one - they just make/made different sacrifices.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
Whether Spike knew of the suffering it would cause him or not doesn't negate the fact that it is in essence an act of self-harm and one of which he is ultimately rewarded for. It's no different than if someone decided to carve the initials of the person they loved into their arm with a knife, it might be done with romantic intentions but it is still in essence an act of self-harm.

Giving Spike a soul was the writers trying to pull a get out of jail free card after the AR. They wrote themselves into a corner (because in general a character doesn't get any love form the audience for committing rape) and they realised they needed the audience to sympathise with Spike in Season 7 so they gave him a soul and trotted out the "he's different now" lines.



Lawson seemed to have a remnant of soul left in Why we Fight after Angel turned him and he was miserable. Vampires and souls are not supposed to mix because a soul goes against a vampire's nature.
I think that having Spike fight for a soul was an attempt to be consistent to what a soul meant and why it was important. The AR was meant to show without it you will hurt people whether that's your actual intent or not because you lack true 'for whom the bell tolls' altruism. The seeking a soul wasn't get out of jail free it was making an attempt to seek redemption and show that while already in jail.

Lawson IMO had nothing to do with who sired him but the man he was before he was turned. Angel who would know better than anyone rejects Lawson's part of the soul theory with 'I don't think it works like that'. It fits better with 'through a glass darkly' theory of vampirism relation to humanity. In laymen's terms Liam was a bad person - i.e. a selfish drunken womaniser who became a heartless sadist on a turning into a vamp, William was morally neutral - a frustrated romantic misfit with no real moral compass - nice but not good - who became a violent, anachistically rebellious but intensely loyal and passionate vampire, Lawson was a good man. If Liam was motivated by rebellion, hedonism and wanting for greater adventure and freedom, William for romantic love and social validatidation then Lawson was motivated by duty and altruism and perhaps a bit of moral superiority all of which are linked to the superego and conscience and the soul. Removing his soul made him empty because all his mortal motivations revolved around it and there was no one to give something to replace it with. Had he encountered someone like The Master he might have gained an evil religious purpose but he didn't.

I think you just see the Buffyverse mythos in very simplistic terms because you don't want to deal in complexities and enjoy watching more fun just enjoying what you enjoy.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,675
Location
Manchester
Removing his soul made him empty because all his mortal motivations revolved around it and there was no one to give something to replace it with.
I agree. A vampire desires pleasure - it's Id driven. Liam gets his pleasure in transgressing; he's in a battle with his father (and if I'm not mistaken, doesn't much care for his homeland). Conversely, Lawson gets his pleasure from being a patriot - (patriot late 16th century: from French patriote, from late Latin patriota ‘fellow countryman’, from Greek patriōtēs, from patrios ‘of one's fathers’, from patris ‘fatherland’). Lawson fights for the fatherland. The symbolic father is the superego - it's also known as "the Law". It's there in his name - Lawson's a patronymic name, a name based on the given name of one's father, grandfather or an earlier male ancestor. Actually "son of Lawrence" (I think) but in this case literally "son of [the] Law. "Why We Fight" is an over-coded title - it's the name of Capra's documentary/propaganda series justifying the US's involvement in the war - it's also a reference to Oedipus.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
I just think Spike was better off soulless, the Spuffy storyline dragged him down, and that there were other ways he could've been used. Out of the 6 male Scooby characters that appear on the show, 4 of them develop a sexual interest in Buffy, that's essentially 2/3 of the male cast. Buffy falls into that stereotypical pit of having almost every male character being attracted to the female lead.

I much prefer Spike and Buffy as frenemies. I get why people would ship the notion of Spuffy (you put two characters together acting antagonistically towards each other and people are going to ship them) but the way the actual relationship played out, the way the writers tried to retcon it as being a thing in the earlier seasons (The Lovers Walk Sprusilla break up is the TRUE version and not the crappy Spuffy retcon version in Fool For Love), Spike was better off without the Spuffy millstone around his neck.

Though there is an inevitability to the AR given the lack of boundaries in the Spuffy relationship, it was still unnecessary and there were other means to get to the same story point "Spike decides to get a soul" without resorting to that. The other characters were thrown aside and objectively under a bus to make Spuffy work. Season 7 wants the audience to feel sympathy for Spike so Whedon having a hissy fit that people sympathised with him in Season 6 seems counter-productive to that. A character whose POV has some validity, even if they are ultimately in the wrong and the show displays that, is more interesting than a "X is wrong and Buffy is right, end of conversation" take on it.

We're probably not going to agree but I preferred evil Spike in Seasons 2-4 rather than Buffy-whipped Spike in Seasons 5-7. JM plays him fantastically throughout the series but I think the story does let him down in the later seasons and in some cases, such as with the AR, it is only JM's talents that bring the character through with any likeability intact. The audience could've very easily rejected Spike completely after the AR because of the "rape is a special kind of evil" trope, that would've screwed up Season 7 immensely given Spike's importance in that season, and as it is, the writers kind of sweep the AR under the rug with a "he's different now because he's got a soul" attitude.

As for Angel and his soul, he's come to peace with it by the time Buffy starts so of course he doesn't want to lose it when he has it. However, it should be noted that ANGELUS doesn't miss the soul and is glad to be rid of it. Given that Angel and Angelus are basically treated as two alternate personalities, essentially Angel is the soul and removing the soul is to remove the Angel personality and allow Angelus to run free so of course he doesn't want that to happen. The soul was inflicted on Angelus against his will because that was the point, the soul was supposed to make him suffer. That is why Angel's reluctance to lose his soul (because he already has it) is not an act of self-harm. Spike getting a soul in the first place is an act of self-harm.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
The rape was going to happen sooner than later back then.

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
I just think Spike was better off soulless, the Spuffy storyline dragged him down, and that there were other ways he could've been used. Out of the 6 male Scooby characters that appear on the show, 4 of them develop a sexual interest in Buffy, that's essentially 2/3 of the male cast. Buffy falls into that stereotypical pit of having almost every male character being attracted to the female lead.

I much prefer Spike and Buffy as frenemies. I get why people would ship the notion of Spuffy (you put two characters together acting antagonistically towards each other and people are going to ship them) but the way the actual relationship played out, the way the writers tried to retcon it as being a thing in the earlier seasons (The Lovers Walk Sprusilla break up is the TRUE version and not the crappy Spuffy retcon version in Fool For Love), Spike was better off without the Spuffy millstone around his neck.

Though there is an inevitability to the AR given the lack of boundaries in the Spuffy relationship, it was still unnecessary and there were other means to get to the same story point "Spike decides to get a soul" without resorting to that. The other characters were thrown aside and objectively under a bus to make Spuffy work. Season 7 wants the audience to feel sympathy for Spike so Whedon having a hissy fit that people sympathised with him in Season 6 seems counter-productive to that. A character whose POV has some validity, even if they are ultimately in the wrong and the show displays that, is more interesting than a "X is wrong and Buffy is right, end of conversation" take on it.

We're probably not going to agree but I preferred evil Spike in Seasons 2-4 rather than Buffy-whipped Spike in Seasons 5-7. JM plays him fantastically throughout the series but I think the story does let him down in the later seasons and in some cases, such as with the AR, it is only JM's talents that bring the character through with any likeability intact. The audience could've very easily rejected Spike completely after the AR because of the "rape is a special kind of evil" trope, that would've screwed up Season 7 immensely given Spike's importance in that season, and as it is, the writers kind of sweep the AR under the rug with a "he's different now because he's got a soul" attitude.

As for Angel and his soul, he's come to peace with it by the time Buffy starts so of course he doesn't want to lose it when he has it. However, it should be noted that ANGELUS doesn't miss the soul and is glad to be rid of it. Given that Angel and Angelus are basically treated as two alternate personalities, essentially Angel is the soul and removing the soul is to remove the Angel personality and allow Angelus to run free so of course he doesn't want that to happen. The soul was inflicted on Angelus against his will because that was the point, the soul was supposed to make him suffer. That is why Angel's reluctance to lose his soul (because he already has it) is not an act of self-harm. Spike getting a soul in the first place is an act of self-harm.
Or you could see both ensouled vampires as recovering alcoholics/drug addicts. Angel is the one dragged to rehab and Spike the one who had the moment of clarity and took himself. There are a few visual paralells with Angel and a recovering alcoholic made in City Of (see Passion of the Nerd's guide for that episode and Somnambulist where he also draws parallels). Spike's behaviour at the start of season seven also has addict going cold turkey parallels too - check out Mark Field's 'Myth, Metaphor and Morality' guides for season seven. I too wish that they'd found another way to get Spike to touch the moral event horizon too because it destroyed a lot of sympathy for the character for quite a few people but I'm not sure there was another way.

I get you feel a certain way but that don't make it the truth.
 
S

SpikeRocks

Guest
Here's a message from Joss to fans about Season 6, from the Bronze VIP archive:

exit me, pursued by bear
Posted by: Joss - May 22, 2002, 2:15 AM
There is no bear. That was a lie. But I am leaving [the Bronze]. Just wanted to say thanks for watching, y'all come back, etc... also, I read occasionally that people haven't been as happy with this year (actually, I hear that every year), show's not the same... not from eveeryone, but it comes up, and I just wanna say this: Dis not th' Nox. Say not that I'm not into it, Marti's not getting it done, anything of that sort... Fact is, I'm in this show up to my neck always. Same With Angel and yup, Firefly too. And I've read that I've blown off one for the other -- He's over Buffy, Firefly is just a contractual obligation, he didn't even CREATE the Rockford Files, why's he taking credit for it... I've heard it all. And it ain't necessarily so. Marti (She of the great brain and great beauty) and I shaped this year very carefully, and while we made mistakes (as we do every year), we made our show. We explored what we wanted to, said what we meant. You don't have to like it, but don't think it comes from neglect. That would give me hurty feelings. Next year is gonna be the greatest challenge of my life, but I've got all three shows lined up thematically, i've got amazing writers and stupendous casts, I'm excited. It feels like the beginning. Joss, year one.

Just wait.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,375
Age
39
Here's a message from Joss to fans about Season 6, from the Bronze VIP archive:

exit me, pursued by bear
Posted by: Joss - May 22, 2002, 2:15 AM
There is no bear. That was a lie. But I am leaving [the Bronze]. Just wanted to say thanks for watching, y'all come back, etc... also, I read occasionally that people haven't been as happy with this year (actually, I hear that every year), show's not the same... not from eveeryone, but it comes up, and I just wanna say this: Dis not th' Nox. Say not that I'm not into it, Marti's not getting it done, anything of that sort... Fact is, I'm in this show up to my neck always. Same With Angel and yup, Firefly too. And I've read that I've blown off one for the other -- He's over Buffy, Firefly is just a contractual obligation, he didn't even CREATE the Rockford Files, why's he taking credit for it... I've heard it all. And it ain't necessarily so. Marti (She of the great brain and great beauty) and I shaped this year very carefully, and while we made mistakes (as we do every year), we made our show. We explored what we wanted to, said what we meant. You don't have to like it, but don't think it comes from neglect. That would give me hurty feelings. Next year is gonna be the greatest challenge of my life, but I've got all three shows lined up thematically, i've got amazing writers and stupendous casts, I'm excited. It feels like the beginning. Joss, year one.

Just wait.
Reading that he does come across like he's up his own arse a bit. Given what happens that begining wasn't very long.
Also him ending things in y. If I had been there I'd have been tempted to respond to him that he's a grown man and he should speak like an adult.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,415
Age
38
Didn't seem Joss cared about the feelings of others before and after the show, why should anyone care about his?

My memory is very vague on this...didn't he insult Cruel Intentions as a movie to which Sarah said Joss owed her an apology with flowers? If so, did she ever get it? (Even if I'm remembering it right, it MIGHT have been tongue in cheek, I'm not sure.)
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,375
Age
39
Didn't seem Joss cared about the feelings of others before and after the show, why should anyone care about his?

My memory is very vague on this...didn't he insult Cruel Intentions as a movie to which Sarah said Joss owed her an apology with flowers? If so, did she ever get it? (Even if I'm remembering it right, it MIGHT have been tongue in cheek, I'm not sure.)
This bring it up on the 20th Anniversary Article on the subject. Sarah said she felt it was her best work to date and that for Joss label it as porny was demeaning to her. He owes her flowers and an apology. Link below. It may of been part jokey but I do remember back during S5 time years ago Joss doing an interview and he made a sarky comment about doing the kiddies version of Dangerous Liaisons. That wasn't jokey. It was just after SMG went public saying they shouldn't leave the WB. That must have ticked him off given they were in negotiations with UPN.

 

Synch

Townie
Joined
Mar 19, 2020
Messages
51
Age
43
Here's a message from Joss to fans about Season 6, from the Bronze VIP archive:

exit me, pursued by bear
Posted by: Joss - May 22, 2002, 2:15 AM
There is no bear. That was a lie. But I am leaving [the Bronze]. Just wanted to say thanks for watching, y'all come back, etc... also, I read occasionally that people haven't been as happy with this year (actually, I hear that every year), show's not the same... not from eveeryone, but it comes up, and I just wanna say this: Dis not th' Nox. Say not that I'm not into it, Marti's not getting it done, anything of that sort... Fact is, I'm in this show up to my neck always. Same With Angel and yup, Firefly too. And I've read that I've blown off one for the other -- He's over Buffy, Firefly is just a contractual obligation, he didn't even CREATE the Rockford Files, why's he taking credit for it... I've heard it all. And it ain't necessarily so. Marti (She of the great brain and great beauty) and I shaped this year very carefully, and while we made mistakes (as we do every year), we made our show. We explored what we wanted to, said what we meant. You don't have to like it, but don't think it comes from neglect. That would give me hurty feelings. Next year is gonna be the greatest challenge of my life, but I've got all three shows lined up thematically, i've got amazing writers and stupendous casts, I'm excited. It feels like the beginning. Joss, year one.

Just wait.
Yep, we have plenty of evidence of the S6 situation: Joss out of the show during 1-2-4 months at the beginning of the season (he came back around 6x03 according to Fury) writing the musical; in and out during the rest of the season and again left during Firefly pilot (around March-April 2002).

However, we have less info about S5. At the beginning of the season Joss posted that he'll be MORE involved in the eps he didn't shoot. Later in the season he posted, in a random post, that tomorrow had to run 2 shows. And Steven S DeKnight said, in Reading BTVS book, that Joss was the showrunner, that he was there every day, on the sets, post production etc SDK began working on the show around S5 (also he explained twice that they hired him permanently at the beginning of his episode, Blood Ties, summoned by Joss on the set that day). And Marti commented, about Into the Woods, that Joss was adamant to it because he knows Marti had to know better how the show runs.

On the other hand we have AHannigan comments around Fall 2000 about Joss trying to remove himself slowly of the show and Marti's comments around 2005 about Joss, before he left to write the musical, saying he's gone and his deceleration of involvement/laminated graph (with Joss next to her saying he did the laminated graph).

And the fact that Joss wrote/directed 2 episodes in Jan/Feb and March/April (according to shooting drafts and shooting infos) so... It's near impossible not to be 100% involved at this point (and according to Greenwalt, Joss spat out the whole Pylea storyline) (and by the way he talks about those episodes... It's true).

I asked this to Jane, Marti and Tim and the later answered me (he always answers!) that he had no idea, that he was on the other show (maybe its a corporate responde, idk).
 
B
Btvs fan
For S5 Iv seen a still from Crush (Bronze scene at the start of episode) where Joss is giving James Directions on what to do. So he was about that's for sure

Synch

Townie
Joined
Mar 19, 2020
Messages
51
Age
43
@Btvs fan yep! We also have a pic of him directing (headphones...) in Buffy vs Dracula, evidences of set presence in Fool For Love, Into The Woods (Marti said Joss was on set guiding her during the first few days), Crush.
 
Top Bottom