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Defending Spike's Actions in Seeing Red

Spanky

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That's what I am trying to say. Spike and Buffy instigated sex through aggressive contact so Spike in the bathroom scene may have thought that Buffy being aggressive, trying to push him off, was the same as those other occasions when she was pushing and hitting him.
Understand. Though the difference is that they broke up and were no longer a couple. He was trying to 'force' them back together.

So how did Buffy know Spike was consenting when she was invisible, Spike did not know it was her there, and she pinned him up aggressively against the wall and undressed him?
Because within the span of a few seconds he was aware and went along with it. The other scene went on for a longer duration. Had Spike not figured out what was happening and Buffy continued to silently force herself on him, despite his protests against it, it would have been just as wrong.
 

Wezza Wozza

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Understand. Though the difference is that they broke up and were no longer a couple. He was trying to 'force' them back together.
It doesn't matter that they were not a couple. They didn't establish themselves as a couple before they first had aggressive sex so it makes no difference.
 

Wezza Wozza

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Understand. Though the difference is that they broke up and were no longer a couple. He was trying to 'force' them back together.


Because within the span of a few seconds he was aware and went along with it. The other scene went on for a longer duration. Had Spike not figured out what was happening and Buffy continued to silently force herself on him, despite his protests against it, it would have been just as wrong.
It doesn't matter how long it took him to find out it was her. That is just like saying you can quickly touch someone inappropriately before they consent to it even if, had they known it was you, they would consent to it.
 

Spanky

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It doesn't matter that they were not a couple.
Not according to Spike either.

That is just like saying you can quickly touch someone inappropriately before they consent to it even if, had they known it was you, they would consent to it.
But in Smashed they set the ground rules and what was acceptable in terms of sexual behavior. That episode was prior to the Gone episode wasn't it. And no, it's not just like that. It's not like that at all.
 

Wezza Wozza

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Not according to Spike either.


But in Smashed they set the ground rules and what was acceptable in terms of sexual behavior. That episode was prior to the Gone episode wasn't it. And no, it's not just like that. It's not like that at all.
That is what I am saying! Buffy was in the wrong and so was Spike. Couple or not, the act is still assault on both sides.
 

Wezza Wozza

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Yes I did. This is exactly what I said look " That is what I am saying! Buffy was in the wrong and so was Spike. Couple or not, the act is still assault on both sides."
 

Wezza Wozza

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Look at what you said. Do you see the difference?
The rest of the line was irrelevant to my point so I only selected the part which I wanted to highlight. Even if you include the rest of that line, it doesn't contradict my point.
 
Spanky
Spanky
But there is a difference between assault and abuse. That's where you changed your words.

Faded90

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There’s a HUGE difference between being a sexual aggressor and being a rapist/attempted rapist.

The biggest difference between Gone and Seeing Red? Seeing Red has Spike clawing at her clothes, her screaming no and having to physically kick him away from her. Gone has Buffy teasing Spike, him realising it’s her and then they have consensual sex, he tells her to leave and she again tries to tease him. The scene then flips to Buffy complaining that he kicked her out so we KNOW that when he drew the line and said no she left. Spike didn’t, Buffy drew the line and he carried on trying to physically rip her clothes off and telling her he’ll ‘make’ her feel it
 

Wezza Wozza

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There’s a HUGE difference between being a sexual aggressor and being a rapist/attempted rapist.

The biggest difference between Gone and Seeing Red? Seeing Red has Spike clawing at her clothes, her screaming no and having to physically kick him away from her. Gone has Buffy teasing Spike, him realising it’s her and then they have consensual sex, he tells her to leave and she again tries to tease him. The scene then flips to Buffy complaining that he kicked her out so we KNOW that when he drew the line and said no she left. Spike didn’t, Buffy drew the line and he carried on trying to physically rip her clothes off and telling her he’ll ‘make’ her feel it
1. Buffy aggressively ripped off Spike's clothes and actually succeeded so they both did very similar things here. 2. Someone can still be a victim of sexual assault even if they do not scream out loud as they may feel threatened or nervous to do so. 3. When Buffy was "teasing" Spike, he did not know it was her so could not consent to it even if he consented after she had already done it.
 

Wezza Wozza

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The rest of the line was irrelevant to my point so I only selected the part which I wanted to highlight. Even if you include the rest of that line, it doesn't contradict my point.
I apologise, I did not see my change in words but all the same, a male committing an act of abuse or assault is the same as if a female did it.
 

Spanky

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Buffy aggressively ripped off Spike's clothes and actually succeeded so they both did very similar things here.
Very similar things, but different. One was abusive action in a relationship, the other a sexual assault after the relationship ended. Neither one saw what they were doing as "wrong" though.
 

Faded90

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1. Buffy aggressively ripped off Spike's clothes and actually succeeded so they both did very similar things here. 2. Someone can still be a victim of sexual assault even if they do not scream out loud as they may feel threatened or nervous to do so. 3. When Buffy was "teasing" Spike, he did not know it was her so could not consent to it even if he consented after she had already done it.
She didn’t ‘rip’ his shirt. She opened it. But he’s not a victim of sexual assault, we see them having consensual sex. He wasn’t nervous, he realised it was her within about 5 seconds. Honestly I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here though
 

Wezza Wozza

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It does not matter if they were in a relationship (which was toxic by the way) if you are being abusive in or outside a relationship, it is still abusive.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Yup. You're right.

Wezza Wozza

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She didn’t ‘rip’ his shirt. She opened it. But he’s not a victim of sexual assault, we see them having consensual sex. He wasn’t nervous, he realised it was her within about 5 seconds. Honestly I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here though
But my point is, even if he realised it was her in 5 seconds, he did not agree for her to open his shirt beforehand so that is just like touching someone inappropriately but then them realising it is their partner, it is still not right because they sexually touched them without the other person's permission.
 
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