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Defending Spike's Actions in Seeing Red

Faded90

Scooby
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But my point is, even if he realised it was her in 5 seconds, he did not agree for her to open his shirt beforehand so that is just like touching someone inappropriately but then them realising it is their partner, it is still not right because they sexually touched them without the other person's permission.
People in sexual relationships very rarely ask for permission. Almost no one asks ‘can I open your shirt?’. Sexual relationships just don’t work like that
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Can you please explain because even though Spike's actions are more extreme and aggressive, (as I have previously stated) Buffy still assaults Spike.
Buffy does not attempt to forcibly and without consent have sex with Spike. Her actions are in line with abuse. Spike attempts to forcefully and without consent have sex with Buffy, his actions are in line with assault. Buffy abused Spike. Spike assaulted Buffy. The actions and means by which the encounter is carried out changes the definition of the act thereby the way we view it.
 

Wezza Wozza

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People in sexual relationships very rarely ask for permission. Almost no one asks ‘can I open your shirt?’. Sexual relationships just don’t work like that
I think that sounds very dodgy. If you don't ask for permission/consent when in a sexual relationship, then how do you know if the person is consenting or is just going along with it even if they do not want to?
 

AstridDante

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So how did Buffy know Spike was consenting when she was invisible, Spike did not know it was her there, and she pinned him up aggressively against the wall and undressed him?
I said Buffy behaved badly in Gone but they had just been having sex. It is not an akin situation to Seeing Red. It is more akin to Dead Things when Buffy said stop bit Spike f**ked her anyway
 

Wezza Wozza

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Buffy does not attempt to forcibly and without consent have sex with Spike. Her actions are in line with abuse. Spike attempts to forcefully and without consent have sex with Buffy, his actions are in line with assault. Buffy abused Spike. Spike assaulted Buffy. The actions and means by which the encounter is carried out changes the definition of the act thereby the way we view it.
Buffy throwing Spike against the wall and opening his shirt without permission is not "forcibly"?
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
If you don't ask for permission/consent when in a sexual relationship, then how do you know if the person is consenting or is just going along with it even if they do not want to?
Wow. Okay, I am not going to touch that one. LOL.

Buffy throwing Spike against the wall and opening his shirt without permission is not "forcibly"?
Sex. You missed the word sex. Buffy does not attempt to forcibly have sex. Read the whole thing. Don't cherry pick.
 

Wezza Wozza

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I said Buffy behaved badly in Gone but they had just been having sex. It is not an akin situation to Seeing Red. It is more akin to Dead Things when Buffy said stop bit Spike f**ked her anyway
I know Spike's actions are more extreme and aggressive but there is no denying that Buffy does also commit acts of assault even if they are not as extreme as Spike's
 

Faded90

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How is unconsensual sex funny?
Because you are calling spontaneous sex assault. Which is just completely ridiculous. Sex can be spontaneous and it’s fun, it’s not all asking for permission every single time. It’s insanely naive to believe that people ask for permission. I’d say 99% of sex is started without asking for permission and it’s still perfectly consensual
 

Wezza Wozza

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Because you are calling spontaneous sex assault. Which is just completely ridiculous. Sex can be spontaneous and it’s fun, it’s not all asking for permission every single time. It’s insanely naive to believe that people ask for permission. I’d say 99% of sex is started without asking for permission and it’s still perfectly consensual
So you are saying that there is a grey area between consent and permission for sex?
 

TriBel

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I really think Spike was just out of his mind desperate to make a connection with her the only way they had up to that point, through sex.
I don't disagree but, without making light of, or trivializing, or condoning what happened in SR, you could make a similar comment about Buffy in OMWF, Smashed and Gone. She was also desperate to "connect", to feel" and wasn't going to let anything stop her. Spike didn't say no but what do you suppose would have happened if he had?

And it wasn't the only way they had to "connect". They connected through shared experience in Bargaining (until the Scoobies intruded and made it all about them). Initially, he wants to share his world with her (he even shares his booze) but she won't share hers with him. The AR is on him...he should have left. However, he asks her to leave him alone in OMWF and she doesn't. He says he's vulnerable because of his feelings for her but she ignores them. I'm not making a direct comparison - just saying the structures are similar.

I don't think it's an *abusive relationship...I think it's a selfish one. The difference is he's selfish partly because he feels self-less (neither man nor monster - he has no identity); she's selfish because she's fearful of becoming self-less (of losing hers).

Dead Things is - odd. IIRC, she's about to leave but changes her mind and climbs the stairs to the balcony. Before that, there's an exchange between the Scoobies which is almost like a Greek chorus...and it's full of sexual imagery (references to lubricating, in the groove, nectar (birds&bees) and glasses that need filling 🙄 )There's a certain inevitability to it all and she seems to be in a liminal state...not fully present. I think perhaps it's suggesting she's drawn there by something innate but not under her control...as though she's submitted to a "Cerebral Dampener" of her own making (does she know he's there...can she sense him?) I actually think the text's suggesting her "don't" is an after-thought (she doesn't really mean it...which would be a problem for me in real life but less so in a text) and she's shown enjoying what happens. I think she's gone "Beyond the Pleasure Principle." What we're seeing is a struggle between the two opposing drives - Eros, the life drive which is to do with self preservation ("don't") and Thanatos - the death drive or self-destruction. I think she's succumbing to Thanatos - you could make the same argument of her handing herself into the police. In both cases, imprisonment or expulsion by her friends (nice - locked away or set free) there'd be some relief from being the Slayer.

So...I can't actually defend Spike in SR because the AR is on him...at the same time, I think they're both victims...not of each other but of Western Philosophy. It's a text...what happens in a text won't always stand up in a court of law.

*Looking at it objectively. He's a vampire who murders humans; she's a human who murders vampires...can it get much nastier...or physical?
 
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