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Did Angel betray the mission by moving to Wolfram & Hart?

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Allegedly, the move to Wolfram & Hart was so the gang could fight evil from inside the belly of the beast. But we all know that Angel only took the deal so he could help Connor have a normal life.

Now, Angel isn't a fool. He knew that accepting Lilah's offer was probably not the best idea in the world. But he accepted it anyway; and in doing so, he disregarded the safety of his associates and put the mission in danger. How on earth could he make such an error in judgement? How could a leader throw caution to the wind and make a deal that pretty much screws Angel Investigations?

How is it that a teenage Slayer can put aside HER feelings, killing the man she loved, yet a centuries-old vampire can't/won't do the "right" thing?
 

Fool for Buffy

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I know he said he wanted to destroy evil from inside the beast, but it was more than that. These people had tortured him for four years and now were giving him everything. He had to find out what that meant. He knew that he could still do good, but he also realized just how big picture things had gotten. I feel like he almost saw it as a responsibility to take it.
 
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
Never thought of it this way, but it makes so much sense! Thanks for the insight (:
T
thrasherpix
Interesting take

Spanky

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RomanticSoul

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Angel only signed off on the deal to save his son. You will probably find plenty of parents who would do the same. As for putting his associates in danger because of it, that was their choice not his. From what I remember each member could have declined joining. They were shown what departments they would be running but as Gunn said after coming back from the White Room, he was doing this whether the rest would or not. And before anyone mentions the mind wipe, Fred was still kind of iffy on joining even after it had gone in effect. So clearly they had all their free will intact.

I don't see how it put the mission in danger. There was never any stopping W&H short of closing all access to Earth from all other dimensions.
 

BuffyBot22

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Angel did this to save his son. He did not directly put anyone in danger by doing this.
Everyone involved had a choice in if they wanted to join W&H

However, if Buffy had chosen to not kill Angel, the entire would have been sucked into hell.
She had to kill him and she knew it, no matter how much it hurt.

Now when Buffy had a chance to save her sister, she took it.
The logical thing to do here would have been to kill Dawn. Just kill her before even The Gift happened, but in Buffy's mind Dawn is her family.
And in The Gift, Buffy did something somewhat illogical. She sacrificed herself so Dawn could live, but by doing so she left Dawn with no family (bc Hank sucks) and left Dawn and all of her friends defenseless on a hell mouth.
Now, I think what Buffy did was heroic and beautiful, but it definitely had consequences and it was all to save her family.
Just as Angel decided to save his family for the consequences of working for evil W&H and wiping his friends memories.
 

RomanticSoul

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Now when Buffy had a chance to save her sister, she took it.
The logical thing to do here would have been to kill Dawn. Just kill her before even The Gift happened, but in Buffy's mind Dawn is her family.
And in The Gift, Buffy did something somewhat illogical. She sacrificed herself so Dawn could live, but by doing so she left Dawn with no family (bc Hank sucks) and left Dawn and all of her friends defenseless on a hell mouth.
I see it differently. The illogical part of The Gift was Buffy stopping Dawn from sacrificing herself. The ritual had already started and Buffy didn't have her ass-pull-that-shouldn't-have-worked revelation yet. But she still wouldn't let Dawn jump, thereby condemning the world (including Dawn) to die. Buffy made an active choice to not save the world. And The Gift was easier than Becoming in so many ways. In Becoming she had to 'kill' Angel because he had no clue what was going so therefor couldn't make the choice himself. In The Gift Dawn had made the choice to sacrifice herself, all Buffy had to do was stand aside and let her do it.
 

BuffyBot22

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I see it differently. The illogical part of The Gift was Buffy stopping Dawn from sacrificing herself. The ritual had already started and Buffy didn't have her ass-pull-that-shouldn't-have-worked revelation yet. But she still wouldn't let Dawn jump, thereby condemning the world (including Dawn) to die. Buffy made an active choice to not save the world. And The Gift was easier than Becoming in so many ways. In Becoming she had to 'kill' Angel because he had no clue what was going so therefor couldn't make the choice himself. In The Gift Dawn had made the choice to sacrifice herself, all Buffy had to do was stand aside and let her do it.

No, I think we see it the same lol. Buffy should have just let Dawn jump in it. I agree with that.

You may not agree about the other part of killing Dawn before it got to the point of The Gift, but that would have been viable option. Just not one I think Buffy would do unless she absolutely had no other choice.
 
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WolfOnyx

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This is a good question and there really is no good answer to it. The take down the system from the inside argument doesn't work because the system is so thoroughly corrupt and evil. Even if they didn't know that before taking the offer, which they bloody well should have, Wesley's inability to burn Lilah's contract should have been a final, conclusive sign for anyone who was still unsure. It can't even be called a mistake because he made the decision actively, at least having a indication of what he was doing. At the very best it might be argued that his intentions outstripped reality, Angel actually seeming to believe that he would be able to use the system for good. If so, the kindest thing that might be said about him is that he was too much of an idealist. Which still doesn't change all that happens. It is a good point about Buffy and furthermore we also have Spike, who has no real mission or reason to good aside from his love for Buffy and Dawn, even after getting a soul, going against his selfish tendencies and taking part in acts that can be called "good", such as protecting Dawn, with mixed results, and helping to save the world more than once, on one occasion when he was full-on evil without even the controlling factor of the chip. It may be odd to say but in some ways Spike without a soul, both with the chip and without, behaves in more heroic manner in some instances than Angel with a soul. The right thing for the wrong reason still being the right thing and the wrong thing for the right reason still being bad.
 

RomanticSoul

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You may not agree about the other part of killing Dawn before it got to the point of The Gift, but that would have been viable option.
Oh I agree with that too. However I think that would be a measure of last resort. If you are 100% sure there is no other way, then yes.

It is a good point about Buffy and furthermore we also have Spike, who has no real mission or reason to good aside from his love for Buffy and Dawn, even after getting a soul, going against his selfish tendencies and taking part in acts that can be called "good", such as protecting Dawn, with mixed results, and helping to save the world more than once, on one occasion when he was full-on evil without even the controlling factor of the chip. It may be odd to say but in some ways Spike without a soul, both with the chip and without, behaves in more heroic manner in some instances than Angel with a soul. The right thing for the wrong reason still being the right thing and the wrong thing for the right reason still being bad.
You mean the soulles Spike who abandoned Buffy in Becoming when she looked to be losing to Angelus, therefor condemning the world to go to hell? What a hero. The soulles Spike who harbored dangerous demon eggs that would kill people? How nice of him. The soulles Spike who worked with Adam? The soulles Spike who killed slayers, the very people protecting the Earth from being destroyed? The soulless Spike who...I think you get the picture. And if you are a comic reader there is also S8 where a souled Spike could have come in sooner and let everyone know about Twilight being Angel but he was more concerned with getting his big dramatic entry than he was the world. Canon doesn't support your view I'm afraid.

And you can never compare Angel and Spike (or Buffy and Spike) in that regard. He's not the central figure, the hero the story is about. He will never be put into the situations Buffy or Angel are put in. It's easy to come off better when those things are never asked of you. When you never have to make these choices where the outcome is either bad or worse but never good. And Angel usually, unlike Buffy, didn't get magical deus-ex-machinas to help him solve the problem. Angel is the more adult show for a reason.
 
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thetopher

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I think its fair to say that Angel was disillusioned with the mission by the end of S4; he'd lost one of his closest friends, alienated from his son (and has to make a faustian pact to save him), and he'd just seen what one of the supposed 'Good guys' (Powers that Be) was like up-close; a maggot-infested piece of crap that tried to justify mass-murder and ritual sacrifice as 'part of the greater good'.

Then the people who had spent years going after him seemingly throw up their hands and go 'okay Angel, you win, we're in actual retreat here, have this place'; so Angel might've wanted to capitalize on his single victory (given what Jasdelia said about predestiny/ no choice) and try to make a difference on a much larger scale; otherwise what's the point.

That's basically Angel S5 summed up in one phrase; there's always a reason, but really, what's the point?


How could a leader throw caution to the wind and make a deal that pretty much screws Angel Investigations?

All the members of A.I got in the limo seperately from each other; all of them accepted the W&H offer separate from Angel's own decision to (especially Gunn & Lorne). They are automomous beings and their own choices should be reckognized, right?
 

MarieVampSlayer

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I like that the writers took it there but yes I always felt it was somewhat of a betrayal of the mission for them to take the offer. I can understand why Angel took it, because I would have done the same thing for my son. I can understand why Wesley took it because he had already shifted to the dark side in a way and was living in a more gray area. I can understand Lorne's motivation because he was never doing thing for the mission like the others. I find it hard to see valid motivation on Gunn and Fred's part. Especially Gunn, because S1 and S2 Gunn would never get along with the big and powerful evil. I believe that if Cordy had been there, she would have refused the offer. It would have been interesting to see her at odds with Angel maybe running the AI with Gunn. She would not understand his motivation until Origin when she remembers Connor. That would have made more sense to me than what we got!
 

SpikeOrAngel

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It's clear from the dialog that Angel did it for Connor AND he and the group did it to see what Wolfram and Hart's plan was. They were never supposed to give into temptation Fred was the only one who really remembered their mission. Gunn and even Lorne sold out on Day 1. Spike never bought in.
 

Stake fodder

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Allegedly, the move to Wolfram & Hart was so the gang could fight evil from inside the belly of the beast. But we all know that Angel only took the deal so he could help Connor have a normal life.

Now, Angel isn't a fool. He knew that accepting Lilah's offer was probably not the best idea in the world. But he accepted it anyway; and in doing so, he disregarded the safety of his associates and put the mission in danger. How on earth could he make such an error in judgement? How could a leader throw caution to the wind and make a deal that pretty much screws Angel Investigations?
I know Angel did it for Connor, but I think a part of him must also have really believed he could evoke change from within, because even if Connor was no longer in his life, he would still want to make the world better and safe for Connor.

In hindsight, it does seem to be an error in judgment, but it is often the case that it seems better to work with an evil power than to stay outside and condemn it with no ability to influence it (this is a constant in global politics, after all). W&H is so powerful and so constantly thwarts what miniscule AI is doing, that it seems logical to try joining them instead.

From what I remember each member could have declined joining. They were shown what departments they would be running but as Gunn said after coming back from the White Room, he was doing this whether the rest would or not.
I've wondered about this. I know it was the deal, that everyone could make their own choices, but would W&H really have wanted to have just Gunn, or just Fred or Lorne, if everyone else decided against joining? (I can make a case for them being interested in just Wes.) But that's a different question.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Powerful organizations do not welcome change. Wolfram & Hart made the offer because they knew AI was going to remain a pest if they didn't do anything and their offer was made in exchange for a new start for Connor, something they were sure would get Angel's acquiescence.

Angel was offered the job of taking over one branch office of an interdimensional evil law firm (he knew about their influence in Pylea from the Wolf, Ram and Hart books he found there, so he knew it went beyond worldwide) and he would be insane to believe he could effect any change for the better in an organization where he didn't know the organization chart or where he stood in it. The closest he got to the Senior Partners was the White Room and he never managed to make any sense out of it. He may have thought that it was a case of 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer' but the same applies to Wolfram & Hart - they got to maintain surveillance on him and all of the AI crew. No human from AI survived employment at Wolfram & Hart. All of them were seduced by the resources available and none of them made any real change.

Angel did betray his mission in order to save his son. If his son wasn't threatening to shoot up a mall and get killed in the process, he never would have accepted it. Angel was corrupted by the killing of Drogyn in order to join the Circle of the Black Thorn, just like some street gangs require a prospective member to kill someone as a rite of initiation. We could consider this story to be "The Rise and Fall of Angel" because he only succeeded in unleashing hell on Earth in L.A.

They make a big deal about signing away the Shanshu prophecy, but how do you sign away a prophecy? I still maintain Angel signed "Anger", not "Angel" and therefore the signature was not valid. And who cares about Shanshu anyway? Just find another Mohra demon and get its blood on him and live the human life with Buffy that he always wanted. She was destined to die the first time it happened but there was no such problem the second time.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
It does look like he writes "Anger"!

Kendar

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...... I still maintain Angel signed "Anger", not "Angel" and therefore the signature was not valid. And who cares about Shanshu anyway? Just find another Mohra demon and get its blood on him and live the human life with Buffy that he always wanted. She was destined to die the first time it happened but there was no such problem the second time.
Interestingly, in the real world that wouldn't matter. Law and the Multiverse takes fictional situations (usually comics but sometimes TV/Movies) and applies real world law to them. They have a discussion about signatures here. The short version:

"In fact, there is no particular requirement that a signature be one’s legal name, much less written in cursive or the like. Instead, a signature is just a physical record of the intent to make a contract. “The signature to a memorandum may be any symbol made or adopted with an intention, actual or apparent, to authenticate the writing as that of the signer.” Restatement (Second) of Contracts § 134 (emphasis added)."
 

ILLYRIAN

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How many countries state that a person may use an X to signify his (or her) mark. Therefore Angels choice to spell his name wrong is like using an X to signify his intention.
The other way of saying about him spelling his name wrong, where does it state he was a literate person/demon? As even though he had a soul he was still a vampire and therefore a demon.
 
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