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Did Angel do a good thing letting Darla and Drusilla have a killing spree??
- Thread starter Joshua
- Start date
He was wrong. He shouldn't solve problems like this. If you solve them like this, new problems appear. For example Darla and Dru got stronger and stronger with every lawyer. It makes it harder for Angel to kill them. Wolfram and Hard will still exist, it doesn't matter if you kill a couple of lawyers. So it was a mistake, even if I really enjoyed this scene. I could understand him and I would probably done the same. :O 
Anya2012
Floppy, hoppy, bunnies!
He was wrong. Even Darla and Dru were shocked that he locked them inside. They might have been evil, but they didn't deserve it. What Angel did was inexcusable.
Hale Caesar
Sunnydale Nerd
Why is everyone in this thread forgetting that Angel was getting mind raped by Darla and was descending into darkness? He wasn't in his normal state of mind...you can compare what Angel did to what Buffy let Spike to do her in season 6, neither character was really themselves
brinkster130
[No message]
Evil Angelus 95
[No message]
O
OpenYourEyes
[No message]
bespangeled
Excellent!
brinkster130
Riley's BFF
I wouldn't say it was a good thing he did but you have to remember that Angel was in a dark place because of Darla and those lawyers. I don't particularly feel sorry for them, they knew what they were signing up for when they started working for W&H; you can only play with fire for so long before you get burned.
In the end, Angel ended up sending a pretty clear message to W&H; he let them know that they weren't untouchable simply because they were humans. Up until that point they had been taking advantage of and counting on that.
In the end, Angel ended up sending a pretty clear message to W&H; he let them know that they weren't untouchable simply because they were humans. Up until that point they had been taking advantage of and counting on that.
Willow My Love
Scooby
Exactly. I love the last part of what you said. It's what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words. I think that W&H really got a taste of how powerful Angel can be too.
But in terms of right and wrong? He was wrong.
SlayerFest
[No message]
Gum Gnome33
"Well, yeah..."
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2011
- Messages
- 1,148
Did he do a good thing? No. In the first place I don't care that they were "evil" lawyers; they were human beings.
But even if you want to consider whether they "deserved" it: some, like Holland Manners, were directly orchestrating and taking part in plots which got innocent people killed as Angel pointed out. Others were just sheep following the herd until pay day to put food on their tables. Do we have the right to judge them for being followers during reigns like Holland's? Yes. Kill them? No. I've always thought W&H, with the exception of the Senior Partners and the other key players, was a study in the grey areas of morality and just how far human beings are willing to go to survive in any climate. It's bleak, sure. But look at Ats season 5. When Angel is CEO, he supposedly gets the entire firm operating in the direction of the good, like a well oiled machine. And sure they're different employees by the time that happens after the beast had killed the former ones, but where do you think the Senior Partners found them? Same place as they found all of their other employees. In short, having W&H in the show serves to remind us that people can be manipulated to do both good and bad things depending on what will serve them best. It takes heroes to say no sometimes. The lines aren't so clear in the real world; it's not "do this and someone dies," but there are decisions to be made which could hurt or harm fellow citizens of the Earth, and humans aren't immune to overlooking these things as we well know. I believe that this is the unpleasant truth which the writers were hoping to represent, (albeit on an extreme level), with the lawyers at W&H.
So considering all that, it's of course horribly wrong and immoral that Angel would directly allow Dru and Darla to kill human beings. Angel would tell you that himself, and so would the people who respect him the most.
But even if you want to consider whether they "deserved" it: some, like Holland Manners, were directly orchestrating and taking part in plots which got innocent people killed as Angel pointed out. Others were just sheep following the herd until pay day to put food on their tables. Do we have the right to judge them for being followers during reigns like Holland's? Yes. Kill them? No. I've always thought W&H, with the exception of the Senior Partners and the other key players, was a study in the grey areas of morality and just how far human beings are willing to go to survive in any climate. It's bleak, sure. But look at Ats season 5. When Angel is CEO, he supposedly gets the entire firm operating in the direction of the good, like a well oiled machine. And sure they're different employees by the time that happens after the beast had killed the former ones, but where do you think the Senior Partners found them? Same place as they found all of their other employees. In short, having W&H in the show serves to remind us that people can be manipulated to do both good and bad things depending on what will serve them best. It takes heroes to say no sometimes. The lines aren't so clear in the real world; it's not "do this and someone dies," but there are decisions to be made which could hurt or harm fellow citizens of the Earth, and humans aren't immune to overlooking these things as we well know. I believe that this is the unpleasant truth which the writers were hoping to represent, (albeit on an extreme level), with the lawyers at W&H.
So considering all that, it's of course horribly wrong and immoral that Angel would directly allow Dru and Darla to kill human beings. Angel would tell you that himself, and so would the people who respect him the most.
HisMrs
Scooby
I totally agree. It wasn't a good thing, but in my eyes, I saw it as them getting what they deserved. Those lawyers used Darla and Drusilla to play with Angel's head and wreak havoc with his life, so he let them wreak havoc with those lawyers. It was pure karma coming back to literally bite them in the ass.
It was wrong since it didn't solve anything. None of the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart were indespensible, so its not like their deaths were gonna bring down W&H or anything. He did it just because he could. Had Lindsay not been there, perhaps he wouldn't have done it.
That being said, if it wasn't for Lindsay being a fool, neither Drusilla or Darla would have been there. Shame he got away while people who probably had less to do with the matter didn't. Though I don't think any of the employees at Wolfram & Hart were oblivious to it's wrongdoings, so I suppose it was Karma, as HisMrs said
I don't think he did a good thing, but I don't think it was all that bad either. At the end of the day, it was Darla and Drusilla that killed them, not Angel.
That being said, if it wasn't for Lindsay being a fool, neither Drusilla or Darla would have been there. Shame he got away while people who probably had less to do with the matter didn't. Though I don't think any of the employees at Wolfram & Hart were oblivious to it's wrongdoings, so I suppose it was Karma, as HisMrs said
I don't think he did a good thing, but I don't think it was all that bad either. At the end of the day, it was Darla and Drusilla that killed them, not Angel.
The Scourge
Scooby
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2011
- Messages
- 543
- Age
- 30
It was wrong, but given Angel's state of mind it was understandable. Those lawyers at Wolfram & Hart are worse than most of the monsters Angel slays, but count on the fact that they are rich and human to get away with their crimes.
I'm probably going to be the only one who says this, but I dont think he was wrong. If they had been demons that were locked in and killed no one would have questioned Angel's morality.
The human's that worked at W&H, no matter if it was the CEO or the receptionist, they all knew what type of work went on there. They all contributed in some way to evil. The fact that humans have a conscience makes it worse in my opinion because they make the conscious thought to go into work and make deals with demons, or set evil creatures free.
What other way is there to deal with evil like that. The police couldnt arrest them, they would never face any jail time because human laws arent made to deal with that supernatural aspect of the show. Killing them took out a threat, even if it was only for a short time, because doing something is better than doing nothing at all and letting them get away with it.
The human's that worked at W&H, no matter if it was the CEO or the receptionist, they all knew what type of work went on there. They all contributed in some way to evil. The fact that humans have a conscience makes it worse in my opinion because they make the conscious thought to go into work and make deals with demons, or set evil creatures free.
What other way is there to deal with evil like that. The police couldnt arrest them, they would never face any jail time because human laws arent made to deal with that supernatural aspect of the show. Killing them took out a threat, even if it was only for a short time, because doing something is better than doing nothing at all and letting them get away with it.
Aloverssoulz
Potential
It was a good thing. Wolfram & Hart were trying to make Angel go crazy, ruining his life, turned Darla evil again and they weren't going to stop. Angel should have started killing off the firm as soon as he found out they were working for demons.
The lawyers being human shouldn't factor into anything. "They have souls, they shouldn't die!" that makes them bigger monsters than the demons and vampires they work for. Evil demons and vampires are born (or reborn) the way they are. Calling them "evil" because they like to eat living flesh is wrong because it's in their nature. Like a lion or shark. The humans at WR&H choose to do what they do because they like being pr**ks. Sadists that get off on seeing other beings suffer. Selling babies, using living awake people as limb transplants, being partners with whichever demon came out with cancer (according to Hamilton) etc. Pre-chip Spike was more human than they were.
Their race shouldn't have stopped Angel from cutting through them with his Broadsword. They were fighting on the side Angel and co. were against. They should have been killed along with the demons.
The lawyers being human shouldn't factor into anything. "They have souls, they shouldn't die!" that makes them bigger monsters than the demons and vampires they work for. Evil demons and vampires are born (or reborn) the way they are. Calling them "evil" because they like to eat living flesh is wrong because it's in their nature. Like a lion or shark. The humans at WR&H choose to do what they do because they like being pr**ks. Sadists that get off on seeing other beings suffer. Selling babies, using living awake people as limb transplants, being partners with whichever demon came out with cancer (according to Hamilton) etc. Pre-chip Spike was more human than they were.
Their race shouldn't have stopped Angel from cutting through them with his Broadsword. They were fighting on the side Angel and co. were against. They should have been killed along with the demons.
I agree with everyone who says that the W&H lawyers knew what they had signed onto and that they were fighting on the 'wrong side' so to speak... but even though in a way I suppose they had it coming (since as mentioned by Brinkster they just blindly trusted that Angel wouldn't harm them due to their humanity) I'm going to say that it was wrong what he did.
Not necessarily because I felt that the Wolfram and Harters were shiny beacons of humanity, deserving of a second chance (whether or not they deserved to be brutally murdered is up for debate however), but because by condoning their murder Angel sunk to their level. He was no better than them.
He made a point, he made it well I suppose, and he was clearly going through a bad time... but ultimately he chose to have those people murdered. Even if he didn't kill them himself he was every bit a part of it and that choice was his personal judgment, passed on people whom - the majority of them - he didn't know and had no idea if they had ever had a hand in what WH had cooked up for him. He might have assumed that they were 'bad people', just as it is often assumed the demons have no souls and are awful beings, but it doesn't mean that it is so and in the definitely gray universe of Angel I think he was aware of the fact that his choice wasn't the morally speaking the right one.
He could have changed or saved lives, he didn't... he stood aside because he felt they had it coming. Even though I'm a fan of "the end justifies the means" I will quote Trotsky here and say that "The end may justifiy the means as long as there is something that justifies the end..."
The end: a room full of dead people (only two survivors, though Angel didn't know of course that two would be spared) and two blood-thirsty vampires on the loose and ready to terrorize an entire city. ... to me it equals great story-telling but it doesn't not make for a justified ending when you think in terms of Angel's choices and what he could have tried to do.
If nothing that we do matters... then all that matters is what we do...
Not necessarily because I felt that the Wolfram and Harters were shiny beacons of humanity, deserving of a second chance (whether or not they deserved to be brutally murdered is up for debate however), but because by condoning their murder Angel sunk to their level. He was no better than them.
He made a point, he made it well I suppose, and he was clearly going through a bad time... but ultimately he chose to have those people murdered. Even if he didn't kill them himself he was every bit a part of it and that choice was his personal judgment, passed on people whom - the majority of them - he didn't know and had no idea if they had ever had a hand in what WH had cooked up for him. He might have assumed that they were 'bad people', just as it is often assumed the demons have no souls and are awful beings, but it doesn't mean that it is so and in the definitely gray universe of Angel I think he was aware of the fact that his choice wasn't the morally speaking the right one.
He could have changed or saved lives, he didn't... he stood aside because he felt they had it coming. Even though I'm a fan of "the end justifies the means" I will quote Trotsky here and say that "The end may justifiy the means as long as there is something that justifies the end..."
The end: a room full of dead people (only two survivors, though Angel didn't know of course that two would be spared) and two blood-thirsty vampires on the loose and ready to terrorize an entire city. ... to me it equals great story-telling but it doesn't not make for a justified ending when you think in terms of Angel's choices and what he could have tried to do.
If nothing that we do matters... then all that matters is what we do...
When I watched that scene, I was like "yesssssss! gg angel". I don't know, but I don't feel like saving them was Angel's responsibility. If he had sent Dru and Darla after them it would have been different, but all he did was let it happen. After everything W&H put Angel through, I completely understand that he wasn't tempted to put his own life in danger to save them.
The massacre left Dru and Darla stronger, but they would have killed someone anyway, and if it wasn't W&H, it would have been someone innocent.
And even though he didn't hurt W&H as a firm, he thought he would get rid of Lindsay who held a grudge personally against him and had a special interest in the Darla case. Also, he might have taught W&H a lesson about not playing with things they can't control, and he showed them that Darla & Dru wasn't on anybody's team.
I'm not sure about my point of view, but I understand Angel and would probably have done the same in his position.
The massacre left Dru and Darla stronger, but they would have killed someone anyway, and if it wasn't W&H, it would have been someone innocent.
And even though he didn't hurt W&H as a firm, he thought he would get rid of Lindsay who held a grudge personally against him and had a special interest in the Darla case. Also, he might have taught W&H a lesson about not playing with things they can't control, and he showed them that Darla & Dru wasn't on anybody's team.
I'm not sure about my point of view, but I understand Angel and would probably have done the same in his position.
white avenger
white avenger
This reminds me of an old saying that my grandmother had. In those days, if someone wound up dead in a violent manner, two questions were asked: "Did they need killing?" and "Did the right person do it?" If the answer was "Yes," then the matter was dropped, on the belief that justice had been served. That's an old tradition, almost certainly common in Liam's time, so it would probably apply here and could have even been what Angel was thinking when he did it.
Did the W&H lawyers need killing? If anyone ever really did, they were the ones, so, yes. The real question is, did the right ones do the killing? If you consider Angel as the killer and Darla and Dru as merely the weapons that he used to get the job done, yes. Two "yeses," so justice was served.
Did the W&H lawyers need killing? If anyone ever really did, they were the ones, so, yes. The real question is, did the right ones do the killing? If you consider Angel as the killer and Darla and Dru as merely the weapons that he used to get the job done, yes. Two "yeses," so justice was served.
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
Yes and no. I think there are a few ways you could view it.
Yes because in a sense,he helped to take out some of the more leading figures in W&H. And in general by letting Darla and Dru do what they did, it put W&H under no illusions as to how far Angel was willing to go to stop them if he had to.
No (more of a theory rather than fact) If he had stopped them,it think potentally he could have made more of "friend" out of them,how ever,this would stop quite a bit of the story line,so no lol.
Yes because in a sense,he helped to take out some of the more leading figures in W&H. And in general by letting Darla and Dru do what they did, it put W&H under no illusions as to how far Angel was willing to go to stop them if he had to.
No (more of a theory rather than fact) If he had stopped them,it think potentally he could have made more of "friend" out of them,how ever,this would stop quite a bit of the story line,so no lol.
funsmiley
Potential
Ever since i saw that episode i have been undecided about whether it was right or wrong.
i think yes and no.
I mean the W&H lawyers were evil, its only because they were humans that we veiw it as wrong that angel let them die, had they been demons or vampires questions wouldn't have been raised.
Angel wasn't himself then, darla was messing with him and W&H were really peeing him off.
I personally think he saw them as evil and wasnt thinking about the fact they were human, he treated them as he would have treated evil demons and vampires.
I for one when i watch the episode now always think YEAH!! GO ANGEL!!.
i mean they really did deserve it.
i think yes and no.
I mean the W&H lawyers were evil, its only because they were humans that we veiw it as wrong that angel let them die, had they been demons or vampires questions wouldn't have been raised.
Angel wasn't himself then, darla was messing with him and W&H were really peeing him off.
I personally think he saw them as evil and wasnt thinking about the fact they were human, he treated them as he would have treated evil demons and vampires.
I for one when i watch the episode now always think YEAH!! GO ANGEL!!.
i mean they really did deserve it.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
One of the great parts of any Joss series is that unexpected twists occur in the plot. Angel has no compunctions about about violence against demons. He also isn't a goody two-shoes about letting instant karma take care of anyone who colludes with demons to ruin human lives.
The point has been made that there are other lawyers and some of the people there may not be important, but Holland Manners was one of the corporate leaders and W&H had his stamp on it. I would assume that anyone who got invited to his wine-tasting was one of his proteges, people being groomed to be movers and shakers in the company and his actions did some real damage there.
I would liken this to the Jimmy Dolittle raid on Tokyo in WWII. It did some damage, but for a country that had not been harmed by any foreign power for 2200 years, it served notice that a new era had dawned. And for the viewers, it served notice that they were not about to suffer from predictable scripts.
The point has been made that there are other lawyers and some of the people there may not be important, but Holland Manners was one of the corporate leaders and W&H had his stamp on it. I would assume that anyone who got invited to his wine-tasting was one of his proteges, people being groomed to be movers and shakers in the company and his actions did some real damage there.
I would liken this to the Jimmy Dolittle raid on Tokyo in WWII. It did some damage, but for a country that had not been harmed by any foreign power for 2200 years, it served notice that a new era had dawned. And for the viewers, it served notice that they were not about to suffer from predictable scripts.
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
If that had been Angelus he would have been the only one to get out of the room, because he would have gone in and done it himself. That was just Angel in a slightly bad mood.
So, yes Angel did good causing, not letting Darla and Drusilla kill them. Bet he wasn't too happy to hear two of them were left alive.
I can't remember any questions being raised about 'Rocky' killing all in the building but when Angel does there is a question, curious.
So, yes Angel did good causing, not letting Darla and Drusilla kill them. Bet he wasn't too happy to hear two of them were left alive.
I can't remember any questions being raised about 'Rocky' killing all in the building but when Angel does there is a question, curious.