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Did Angel know what would happen as a result of the gypsy curse?

telperion66

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My limited understanding is that Angel had no idea that he would lose his soul if he ever experienced a moment of true happiness.

I was curious if anyone knows whether he was indeed aware that he would turn evil if, for example, he slept with Buffy?

If he wasn't aware, it must have come as a hell of a shock when it happened! 😮
 

nightshade

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Black Thorn
No I don't believe he was aware, I don't think anyone was except for Uncle Enyos who then told Jenny after it had already happened.
 

Angel6

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I think he must have been or the curse would be pretty useless. I think he didn’t know that being with Buffy would make him perfectly happy, and when he is lying with her after they have ‘made love’.

For the first time in his unlife he feels like someone accepts him, knows him, and loves him anyway, especially it being someone so pure and righteous.
 

vampmogs

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Yeah I definitely don't believe he had any idea. If he had, then he wouldn't have slept with Buffy in the first place.

In fact, AtS proves that Angel remained pretty in the dark about the curse for a long time after BtVS Season 2. Until "Epiphany" Angel was still under the illusion that merely having sex with someone would cause him to lose his soul. It wasn't until after he'd slept with Darla that he came to realise it wasn't the act of sex itself but rather how perfectly happy and content he'd felt with Buffy afterwards that triggered him to lose his soul.

So I think Angel was as in the dark as the rest of us. He feels his way along trying to understand the curse. And as Jenny wasn't even aware of the specifics of the curse until Uncle Enyos told her in "Innocence", I'd be willing to bet that it was even kept secret from most of her clan as well.
 

Spanky

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Of course he didn't know. The whole point of the curse was to make him suffer. But that's also why the curse would no longer work after the first time.
 
Angel6
Angel6
The suffering is that he can never allow himself be happy? Surely the gypsies don’t want angelus to be free again?

Ceadsearc03

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I don’t think he knew. It seemed like he thought having his soul WAS the curse - doomed to an eternity of guilt. As was pointed out above, even Jenny said something along the lines of “I didn’t know this would happen.” (As in, she didn’t know the details.)

I guess he could have known that happiness would revoke the curse and didn’t realize Buffy would make him that happy, but I never got that impression.
 

thetopher

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He didn't know. If he had known he would've shunned people a lot more than he did during the past century.

As it is he was content to hang on the fringes of humanity; sometimes lurking in a demon infested hotel, or getting drunk in Vegas or being an unwashed shlub who went to all those Manilow Concerts.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I don't think Angel knew the curse could be broken otherwise he would've probably tried to break it in the early days.

Also, it's possible that it wasn't necessarily about Buffy herself that caused the curse to break and she was just coincidental. By the time Buffy had appeared on the scene, Angel had his soul for over a century, though he still felt guilt over his past misdeeds, he wasn't tortured by it to the extent h used to be. Therefore, Buffy was a distraction that made Angel feel happy and he lost his soul because his guilt was no longer at the forefront of his mind. Had Buffy appeared decades before, sleeping with her might not have removed Angel's soul. Post-Buffy, Angel is wary about getting too close to someone again in case he loses his soul again.
 
Angel6
Angel6
Yeah your right actually he would’ve sought happiness in those early days.

Spanky

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@Angel6 They gypsies (and the show) didn't distinguish a difference between souled Angel and unsouled Angel. They wanted the soul to punish him and if he ever felt human and forgot about the soul punishment he would lose it. They wanted the vampire to suffer, so that he would not live as a 'human'
 
Angel6
Angel6
I agree they didn’t differentiate, but they surely wouldn’t have wanted him to become Soulless again and seek vengeance/ commit more atrocities would they? I always took it as their intent for the immortal guilt and burden to be the punishment.

Spanky

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@Angel6 "but they surely wouldn’t have wanted him to become Soulless again and seek vengeance/ commit more atrocities would they?" Not according to the show. According to the show they wanted him to suffer. Him finally feeling normal, feeling human and then that being taken away from him would make him suffer more. They didnt care about him committing more "atrocities" they only cared about vengeance.

"I always took it as their intent for the immortal guilt and burden to be the punishment." And when he didn't feel that, when he was happy and content, and made peace with having a soul again, he would lose it once more.

It's explained in the show.
 

Ceadsearc03

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I think Enyos made it clear all they cared about was vengeance. They wanted him to suffer. As @Spanky mentioned if he no longer suffered he would lose it because they didn’t want him to live as a human. It does seem a bit weird, because then he’s back to being a creature who doesn’t care and doesn’t feel guilt, but I suppose at least he isn’t happy.

I also think that the original elders probably didn’t really think their endgame through beyond vengeance. Clearly, the current clan DID want the curse to hold (and him to suffer), hence sending Jenny.
 

Spanky

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It does seem a bit weird, because then he’s back to being a creature who doesn’t care and doesn’t feel guilt,
Yes, but those with whom he built a relationship would care and they would feel the "death" of the Angel they knew, just as they clan felt the death of their member that he killed. That's some good vengeance there.
Clearly, the current clan DID want the curse to hold (and him to suffer) hence sending Jenny.
And Uncle Creepy, remember he was sent there to avert the situation from happening, not enable it. He was the one that said separate Angel from Buffy.
 

Ann

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Angel didn't know and neither did anyone else. Not even the gypies. Whistler: "No one saw you coming" Buffy and Angel didn't know the consequences of being together in that way, either.
 

white avenger

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If Angel had had ant sort of inkling that having sex with Buffy would cost him his soul, that would have made him (Angel, not Angelus) probably the most evil creature in the entire Buffyverse. In order to accept Angel as the sort of hero that he is depicted as being, we have to accept that he was totally clueless about the situation until after the fact. At least, that's how I've always seen Angel.

As a totally clueless vampire.

(P S- The International Order Of Spike Supporters And Spuffy Shippers paid me $25 to post that)
 

Spanky

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Angel didn't know and neither did anyone else. Not even the gypies.
That's not what they said in the show, though. Uncle Creepy said it was arranged that way. The clan knew what would happen. What Whistler said no one saw coming was the love affair of Buffy and Angel.
 
Ceadsearc03
Ceadsearc03
Well, I would think that meant that no one saw Buffy causing him to lose his soul or him to achieve true happiness even though the clan knew it was possible.

white avenger

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The clan knew what would happen.
I think that it was a case of them knowing that they could somehow restore the soul to a vampire, but either not knowing, bot caring, or both, that, in doing so, they were creating an entirely new being (since according to Whedonverse law, the presence of a soul makes the vampire an entirely new person, no longer responsible gor the sins of his soulless counterpart) who had, in effect, done them no harm whatsoever. At least, I hope that they didn't initially know, because that would make them at least as cruel and uncaring as Angelus ever was. Once the spell was enacted, of course, and it eventually became apparent just what they had actually done, they would have come to realize that they had taken the responsibility upon themselves to have to follow Angel around secretly, assuring that he would never know that one moment of perfect happiness, for fear that Angelus would be unleashed on the world once more. In that sense, it's the classic case of wanting something very badly until you actually get it, then finding out, too late, that having it is more work than it might have really been worth in the first place. Angel may have been cursed with a soul, but the Gypsies were cursed with having to see that he kept it.

They should have just staked him within the first few days after he got the soul, while he was still disoriented and, if he had the same initial reaction as Spike would have when he got his soul, crazy and borderline suicidal. It would have been far less bothersome, not to mention cheaper.
 

Ceadsearc03

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Angel didn't know and neither did anyone else. Not even the gypies. Whistler: "No one saw you coming" Buffy and Angel didn't know the consequences of being together in that way, either.
That’s right! I forgot Whistler’s line. It actually kind of surprised me in hindsight, because I assumed Whistler expected early on he would fall for her. But perhaps he didn’t expect it to be mutual.

Also, Passion has a cut line about how they (Bangel) didn’t know. Granted, it was said by Buffy, but I still think it’s worth noting the writers originally put that in there.
 
Spanky
Spanky
In response to your comment above... true happiness was not the only thing having to do with losing his soul. That's just the one thing fans (and the show) clung onto. He didn't have to have true happiness to lose his soul.
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