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Question Did Buffy love Spike?

Was Buffy in love with Spike?

  • Yes - I watched while the show aired

    Votes: 28 23.5%
  • Yes - I watched after the show aired

    Votes: 30 25.2%
  • No - I watched while the show aired

    Votes: 25 21.0%
  • No - I watched after the show aired

    Votes: 22 18.5%
  • Maybe - I watched while the show aired

    Votes: 6 5.0%
  • Maybe - I watched after the show aired

    Votes: 8 6.7%

  • Total voters
    119

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
And I'll end up by saying that if you do not want any problematic elements in any pairing/character, then I don't get how you can enjoy anything
I think there's just certain degree of problematic that a person can actually enjoy by watching chatacters overcome the obstacles and such. Angel/Buffy had that I think and it still was complex and believable without being violent. I guess what people are trying to say that the show glorified and justified the abusive toxic relationship and domestic violence which is not a good thing and I can see where they're coming from. The outcome of presenting such relationship should have been different.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
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Messages
737
Location
France
I think there's just certain degree of problematic that a person can actually enjoy by watching chatacters overcome the obstacles and such. Angel/Buffy had that I think and it still was complex and believable without being violent. I guess what people are trying to say that the show glorified and justified the abusive toxic relationship and domestic violence which is not a good thing and I can see where they're coming from. The outcome of presenting such relationship should have been different.
Except that I don't think the show ever shied away from showing the ugly aspects of this relationship - hell, it was the first thing that they did ( Fool for love, Crush). I kind of see it as a reverse Buffy/Angel, for which we were first meant to root for before poiting out the icky/dark aspects of the relationship ; Buffy and Spike start as a "no no" before we get to see Spike's twisted infatuation evolve into something deeper and "purer".
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
we get to see Spike's twisted infatuation evolve into something deeper and "purer".
I think it was unhealthy for most people to see Buffy comforting him after s6 fiasco I get that. That whole approach was a big miss in a lot of aspects. Still I see their interactions in S7 as a religious experience for Spike. Buffy being the God figure and Spike doing all the basic things all religious people do actually. That's how I saw it at least. But that's not love. It's just another form of obsession not as destructive but still delusional.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
It’s worship.
thetopher
thetopher
Worshiping a person he doesn't really know.

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
@Mrs Gordo It’s worship.

Exactly. You can see religious patterns in his behaviour. Well pretty much the same with kids and parents. Kids screw up and then they do things expecting the parent's approval. They look up to them as religious person looks up to God/Goddess/Flying Spaghetti Monster etc. and expect that all will be forgiven if they just perform a ritual or say a prayer. In this case it was the soul and etc.
 
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Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
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Messages
737
Location
France
I think it was unhealthy for most people to see Buffy comforting him after s6 fiasco I get that. That whole approach was a big miss in a lot of aspects. Still I see their interactions in S7 as a religious experience for Spike. Buffy being the God figure and Spike doing all the basic things all religious people do actually. That's how I saw it at least. But that's not love. It's just another form of obsession not as destructive but still delusional.
Then why is it not unhealthy when it comes to Angel and Buffy ? Soulless Angel has done and would've done way worse to Buffy than what Spike did, but she took care of him anyway when he came back and she forgave him. Similarly, his story is very much linked to his idealization of Buffy as the trigger to his redemption (Becoming pt 1 and Amends springs to mind), only he left before he could witness every aspect of Buffy/ see her evolve as a person.
By S7 Spike doesn't blindly worship Buffy anymore : he sees her for what she is, and loves her anyway, the good parts and the ugly parts, and vice versa.
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
Then why is it not unhealthy when it comes to Angel and Buffy ?
Mostly because Buffy and Angelus were not involved. What Angelus was doing wasn't the same what Spike was doing in so many ways. Because at the moment Buffy kinda trusted Spike I think, in a way. So she didn't actually see him as a mortal enemy. When it came to Buffy and Angelus, well she certainly wouldn't come around to his mansion and bring Dawn over for him to watch out for her. So she wasn't expecting that, well 'jokes' on her I guess, cause she should have that's what SR is all about.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
737
Location
France
Mostly because Buffy and Angelus were not involved. What Angelus was doing wasn't the same what Spike was doing in so many ways. Because at the moment Buffy kinda trusted Spike I think, in a way. So she didn't actually see him as a mortal enemy. When it came to Buffy and Angelus, well she certainly wouldn't come around to his mansion and bring Dawn over for him to watch out for her. So she wasn't expecting that, well 'jokes' on her I guess, cause she should have that's what SR is all about.
I get that but I still don't see why Spike gets more shit for trying and failing and overall being 100x better than Angel without a soul while Angel gets to pull a "two separate entities" card ; but then it's the eternal debate regarding the soul issue.
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
I get that but I still don't see why Spike gets more shit for trying and failing and overall being 100x better than Angel without a soul while Angel gets to pull a "two separate entities" card ; but then it's the eternal debate regarding the soul issue.
Oh, I love Spike personally... It may not look like that I guess haha. And I can argue "being better" without a soul because then it makes the whole soul thing kinda useless. About Angel\Angelus I always thought that it has something to do with the curse and it's purpose that it kinda amplifies all the guilt more than even a regular human being would have but I might be wrong.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Satanic Panda
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Black Thorn
Then why is it not unhealthy when it comes to Angel and Buffy ? Soulless Angel has done and would've done way worse to Buffy than what Spike did, but she took care of him anyway when he came back and she forgave him. Similarly, his story is very much linked to his idealization of Buffy as the trigger to his redemption (Becoming pt 1 and Amends springs to mind), only he left before he could witness every aspect of Buffy/ see her evolve as a person.
By S7 Spike doesn't blindly worship Buffy anymore : he sees her for what she is, and loves her anyway, the good parts and the ugly parts, and vice versa.
Because Spike came to Sunnydale, and made it his mission to kill Buffy. How many times did he specifically plan to kill her? Quite a few! But he failed. What a dork.
Angel actually fell in love with her;
REAL love, not the pathetic obsession that Spike eventually fell victim to.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
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Messages
737
Location
France
Oh, I love Spike personally... It may not look like that I guess haha. And I can argue "being better" without a soul because then it makes the whole soul thing kinda useless. About Angel\Angelus I always thought that it has something to do with the curse and it's purpose that it kinda amplifies all the guilt more than even a regular human being would have but I might be wrong.
Well, being better doesn't mean being good. I don't think it renders the soul useless, because as I said, soulless Spike's occasional goodness only goes so far and is very limited.
Interesting point about the curse, I hadn't thought of it.

Because Spike came to Sunnydale, and made it his mission to kill Buffy. How many times did he specifically plan to kill her? Quite a few! But he failed. What a dork.
Angel actually fell in love with her;
REAL love, not the pathetic obsession that Spike eventually fell victim to.
And then he slowly evolved and changed (as characters and people are wont to do) and actually helped her and her family on a number of occasions.
For the rest, I appreciate your opinion but I do believe that both really loved her.
 
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badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
not the pathetic obsession that Spike eventually fell victim to.
it was the same obsession. to dominate over her then he couldn't harm her anymore so that was another way to seek domination

Well, being better doesn't mean being good. I don't think it renders the soul useless, because as I said, soulless Spike's occasional goodness only goes so far and is very limited.
Interesting point about the curse, I hadn't thought of it.
I don't understand what it means then... Sorry maybe I'm missing something about semantics here but bare with me I'm not an English speaker when I translate these words in my language it all means the same "being good". So. Can his actions can really be called goodness, though.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
By S7 Spike doesn't blindly worship Buffy anymore : he sees her for what she is, and loves her anyway, the good parts and the ugly parts, and vice versa.
I'd say that he does; that's his entire arc- a worshipful love story from his perspective. Leaving aside the 'Spike draping himself on a cross in penance whilst Buffy watches' imagery in the second damn episode...

Buffy says that she 'believes in him' in 'Never Leave Me' and so he holds out for her to save him all through his getting tortured by the First, he stays in Sunnydale simply because she asks, He says numerous times that he loves her and got a soul for her and went through pain and suffering for her, he puts on the murder-coat and goes 'Big Bad' simply because she asks him to get in touch with the dark part of himself, his indifference to the kill-trigger must be in part because Buffy doesn't care about it that much and yet he never questions or stands up to her in any meaningful way (unlike both Angel and Riley have).

That's worship.

And when he says 'I've seen the best and the worst of you' well, he hasn't, that was the demon.
Even if you hold to the 'he's basically the same guy but with added morality' then that morality would radically change how one would perceive all of what had been witnessed in the past.
It would like no other alteration to the mind and memory on earth. So 'he' hasn't seen the best or worst of her, not by a long shot. Her friends have.

I get that but I still don't see why Spike gets more shit for trying and failing and overall being 100x better than Angel without a soul while Angel gets to pull a "two separate entities" card
Because Angel never pulls the 'you stuck a sword in me and sent me to hell' card; he accepts that 'he' hurt Buffy and says no more about it, never playing the hard-done by victim or anything like that. And Amends is about Angel and how he sees himself, not all about Buffy.

On the other hand Spike is a lot more...blame-y and 'give me credit for the good whilst I ignore the bad' in his actions. That's why he gets more crap flung his way, and rightly so given what 'he' did to Buffy mere months earlier.
At least Angel got a hundred years in hell to mull over the damage he did, Spike just comes straight back to Sunnydale without really considering how it might affect Buffy.
 
badsister
badsister
cause she's not a person to him at that moment. she's the means for redemption to feel better about himself. i sound like spike hater but i actually love him. but you can't deny the obvious.

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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Messages
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I don't understand what it means then... Sorry maybe I'm missing something about semantics here but bare with me I'm not an English speaker when I translate these words in my language it all means the same "being good". So. Can his actions can really be called goodness, though.
Don't worry, I'm not a native speaker either and sometimes I have wording issues too.
What I meant was that soulless Spike is better than soulless Angel, and better than how he started out. But if you have to evaluate his morality in the bigger picture, he does not really qualify as "good". Hope it's clearer this way.
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
Don't worry, I'm not a native speaker either and sometimes I have wording issues too.
i feel your pain.

What I meant was that soulless Spike is better than soulless Angel
My bad! Blind person here. A first i've read 'better than angel with a soul'. and was like wHAT.
Yeah but for me that's like comparing two serial killers. like well dahmer was better than bundy cause he really liked puppies. i just don't believe it works like that.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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What I meant was that soulless Spike is better than soulless Angel...

200w.gif


Interesting point about the curse, I hadn't thought of it.
And then he slowly evolved and changed (as characters and people are wont to do) and actually helped her and her family on a number of occasions.
For the rest, I appreciate your opinion but I do believe that both really loved her.
He "slowly evolved" into a domesticated house pet. His character was pretty much DESTROYED, and that is a tragedy.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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Messages
737
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He "slowly evolved" into a domesticated house pet. His character was pretty much DESTROYED, and that is a tragedy.
You mean Spike being love's bitch is out of character ? Lost me there. He was like this with Drusilla, I don't see why he wouldn't be with Buffy. Although I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'domesticated house pet', but I fail to see how he's not the same character as we've seen since his very first appearance (in that regard I mean).
Do you mind explaining how he was destroyed ? I really don't see it.
 

Antho

Scooby
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I get that but I still don't see why Spike gets more shit for trying and failing and overall being 100x better than Angel without a soul while Angel gets to pull a "two separate entities" card ; but then it's the eternal debate regarding the soul issue.
My interpretation :

When we met Angel, he had a soul. Then he fell in love with Buffy, they started a relationship, then he lose his soul, then he became a new person, a new character because Angelus and Angel are different. The name has changed, also the personnality, Buffy (and everyone around her) said that Angel is not himself. The show showed us the differences, so yeah I believe what the show sold to me and it sold that Angelus and Angel are two different entities. If people don't agreed with that, then sorry but they are wrong, because that's not even a question of opinion, that's canon !! That's why Angel gets a card "two personnalities" like you said, that's not the fans who are more nice, it's just what the show showed to us.

Concerning Spike. We met him he is evil, soulles, he is in love with Drusilla, so he already showed humans capacity like loving someone. At the end of season 2, he fought with Buffy to stop the Apocalypse (and accessory gets his revenge on Angelus), so that proved he is not any vampire, he is kinda more human than others vampires. Then, he came back in season 4, got a chip and he is forced to change his food. Then he started to fight demons just for the pleasure of a good fight, and step by step, he is in the team of good people. Then he fell in love with Buffy, cried at her death, take care of Dawn after that, and she came back and they started Spuffy. And then we got sex scene, tender moments, unhealthy moments..... but Spike, even soulless, fell in love with Buffy and she fell in love wih him even knowing he didn't have a soul.

So for me, see, I may be more easy on Angel because I don't think Buffy was in love with Angelus, she was in love with Angel, the vampire with a soul ! And Angel and Angelus are not the same person. But it's soulless Spike who fell in love with Buffy and she fell in love with him in return. I can't blame Angel for something he hadn't really done because that was not him, that was not the man Buffy loved. But, for all what happened in season 6, I can blame Spike because he was the same Spike, it was that man Buffy fell in love who did all theses things to her. Like I give the credit to Spike for all the good things he had done in season 5 and 6.

Am I clear ? :( that's difficult to explain but all is clear in my head :D

Maybe my interpretation is not logical but that's how I see things.
 
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brinkster130
brinkster130
I get what you mean.

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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Wasn't he planning on turning her into Drusilla 2.0 ? If it isn't victimizing, that what is ?
First, it's never stated in canon that this is what Angelus was planning to do. It's a fan theory (and a good one, at that, it definitely does make sense) but the point is, he never got that far in the narrative. Also, note the word "planning". If I was planning to murder someone but never got around to it, would I be charged with murder? No.
For the rest, Spike was stuck in a wheelchair, and was basically homebound while Dru and Angelus wrecked havoc. Except for the Judge thing (for which he wasn't even present), he doesn't take part in any of Angel's (and Dru's) actions (killing Kendra, awaking Acathla). Hell, he even lets Giles beat the crap out of Angel, and eventually makes a truce with Buffy to stop him (for selfish motives, but still).
Complicit was the wrong word for me to use, I meant to indicate that both Angelus and Spike try to kill Buffy several times over Season 2. Their actions are completely on par. So, again, by your own logic, Spike victimised Buffy in Season 2 (and, again, I don't believe either vamp victimised her that season).
As for the rest, we obviously have radically different interpretations of what's on screen, and I'm just sick of having to justify myself.
You were the one who jumped on my post in the first place and I never asked you to "justify yourself", I simply refuted your arguments with my own, which is what happens during debates on posting boards.
I'll just say that no, Buffy does not blame herself for the AR, and neither does Spike or anyone else : she just blames herself for the wrong things that she did do, no more no less.
I never said that Buffy specifically blames herself for the AR. But she does accept blame where it wasn't warranted, and allows Spike to blame her for her actions while avoiding blame for his own.
And I'll end up by saying that if you do not want any problematic elements in any pairing/character, then I don't get how you can enjoy anything, not only on this show, but in any entertainment / art work in general.
You are, once again, making assumptions about me and my views. Nowhere did I ever say I did not want problematic aspects in shows, characters or pairings. Problematic aspects are fine. What isn't fine is when shows condone problematic aspects or assign blame where it should be placed. Exploring abusive relationships is fine, it needs to happen to show people the dangers of these relationships. But a show should not condone a victim returning to their abuser, which BtVS does.
I'll say again, I enjoy Buffy and Spike because the problematic things that they both do not only make them believable and relatable characters, but it also helps them grow further as such. I don't want to saintly characters, I want complex and human characters.
Nice dig at the end. Again, no where do I ever say that I want "saintly characters". I just want characters who display abusive behaviour to be held accountable for their actions and not have their victims' pain and trauma shoved aside and ignored.
 
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