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Did creating Dawn give Joyce the tumor?

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Topher30, Mar 25, 2016.

  1. Topher30

    Topher30 Townie

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    Hi, I'm new to boards but a long time Buffy fan. Anyway, I'm rewatching season 5 at the moment and I've always wondered, did the monks creating Dawn give Joyce the tumor? I don't ever recall her having any problems pre Dawn and as it's said many times, magic always has consequences. I mean, turning the key into human form messed with everyone's memories so maybe it damaged Joyce's brain when Dawn was created. Maybe a stupid question but it's something I've always been curious about
     
  2. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think so. I think Joyce's death was supposed to represent the fragility of life and Buffy's lack of control of real life. In the storyline I think they wanted Buffy to grow up and losing a mother who took care of her and gaining a sibling who needed who care pushed her into adulthood. If Joyce had been around to comfort Buffy in season 6 instead of Dawn being around to place more demands on her Buffy may not have been as depressed.
     
  3. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    No.

    This is something that I will never believe, because it was never mentioned on the show. I think if this was supposed to be the reason Joyce was sick, it would have been a huge deal and a huge storyline. It's something that would have created a huge conflict for Buffy - having to protect the reason her mother is dead. That would have been a massive storyline.

    But it wasn't even mentioned on the show, even as a passing thought.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand why people can come to this conclusion. I just think that, had Joss and the writers wanted this to be the reason Joyce was sick, a bigger deal would have been made.
    The characters would have at least have brought it up, even as a theory.
     
  4. Professor Walsh

    Professor Walsh Feminist slayerette

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    Black Thorn
    Looking at the lack of parents in the lives of the core cast, it is real life causing the absentness. I think that supports what the above posters have written.
     
  5. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I don't know that I believe it, but there is a case to be made for it. It would actually great for Dawn to have some sort of emotional breakdown about it now to Buffy, like she's been harboring guilt about it all these years.
     
    Topher30 likes this.
  6. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

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    I don't think so.
    I get that, from a narrative perspective Dawn arriving means that Joyce 'has to go'. So then Buffy transitions from teen daughter to young adult parent.

    But in-verse? Nothing to suggest it.
     
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  7. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I wouldn't say nothing. The fact that Joyce gets a brain tumor after having her brain messed with unnaturally, the fact that when she has her first "spell" she recognizes that Dawn isn't really her daughter...
     
    Iwearthecheese: Fair point. :)
  8. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    I can maybe believe that Dawn's arrival exasperated an existing condition within Joyce, but I don't think it caused it completely. I think if that were the case, someone other than Joyce would have shown symptoms. Everyone's memories were tampered with, after all. I find it hard to believe that only one person would have had that sort of reaction - unless there was some other underlying factor.
     
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  9. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    But more than that it played with the physiology of her entire being. She was implanted with memories of being a mother and giving birth, yet at the very end she still knew 'she's not mine is she?' or words to that effect. So her memories were telling her one thing, and her body and natural instinct was telling her another. She was in essence torn in two. I think it's a valid reason why some could see it as the tumor was a side effect of the spell.

    I don't think that way... I don't think they would have the balls to have written it that way.
     
  10. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I think whether it was true or not, SOMEONE in that group would have thought about it and brought it up at some point.
     
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  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    It would affect Joyce more than anyone else because she was the one with the memories of giving birth to Dawn.. and all of those wacky women things that come with pregnancy, and how it changes you etc. So it only affecting Joyce could make sense in that regard as well.
     
  12. Topher30

    Topher30 Townie

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    First of all, thanks everyone for your replies and views! Second, I saw someone mention that someone in the gang would have mentioned it but would they have? They all have a lot going on and by the time most of them realize Dawn was created by the monks, Joyce has already been in and out of the hospital with her issues so they (anyone not named Buffy or Giles) probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. I'm not saying it happened but it's just always been something I was curious about
     
  13. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I think it's an interesting theory and there are clues that might link to it, but I believe simply, that Buffy being the chosen one gave her a lot of power to fight on the side of good. I always found it the ultimate tragedy that Buffy saved so many lives in being the slayer, but the one person she could never save was her mother, who dies of natural causes. Nothing the slayer could do would prevent it.

    I think had Dawn been the cause, this death would have been less poignant in that regard, because it would be another mystical death. Yeah sure, there would be the link to Dawn and the guilt surrounding that, but the fact that the death is natural really hits home the point that Buffy is still just an ordinary teenage girl.
     
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  14. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    I think that something this big, something this important and horrifying - Buffy being made to protect and love and save the being whose entire existence is responsible for the death of her mother - would never be inferred or suggested or implied. I think it would be pointed out in flashing neon lights, if this is the way Joss and the writers wanted this to play out. I just think that this is something too big to be hinted at and left for the fans to discuss and come to their own conclusion.

    Like I said, I can certainly see why someone could possibly come to that conclusion - it is a very big coincidence after all - but we're not talking about whether or not Spike and Buffy boinked in 'Chosen' when the screen faded to black. That wasn't integral to the plot and story of that episode. This has major ramifications to both Buffy and Dawn and will continue to effect them for the rest of their lives. But it never, ever comes up.

    As for it not occurring to people because of everything else going on, one of those people was Giles, the man who actively recommended killing Dawn to stop Glory and was mad and upset that Buffy wouldn't have even considered it. He's a smart man, he's pragmatic and practical, able to make the tough decisions. At the point of Joyce's death, he knew about where Dawn came from and why she was here and why Glory wanted her. I find it hard to believe that a man like Giles - or even a woman like Willow - wouldn't have made a connection between a tumor on Joyce's brain and memories being implanted in everyone's mind to explain Dawn. It just doesn't seem plausible to me.
     
    gite63: Horrifying, that's the word.
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  15. Topher30

    Topher30 Townie

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    Yeah Giles was the only one I was really coming up with a hard time figuring out why he wouldn't have mentioned it. The only thing I can think of is that maybe he thought it would distract Buffy from the most important task at hand, stopping Glory.
     
  16. Smile Time

    Smile Time Fuffy Apologist

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    Sineya
    Considering the sequence of events afterwards, probably.

    However, I can't say that for sure because no one ever confirmed it.
     
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  17. Foxy

    Foxy I am cookie dough!

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    Sineya
    Very interesting theory, I like it
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    I'm somewhere in the middle. I think Joyce had a pre-existing brain tumor that would have taken maybe a few more years to really take effect. Just that the monks scrambling her brain speed up the whole process. I know that there are some fast growing tumors but with Joyce it went from zero symptoms to 100 in record time.
     
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  19. Chartreuse

    Chartreuse Townie

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    I actually wondered why that wasn't brought up by one of the characters, but then again they didn't know about Dawn until later. In S/5 E/8 Buffy's mom first found out about the tumor and Buffy's doctor was asking about exposure to power lines etc...and then Buffy wanted to do a healing spell as was advised against it - I feel that had Tara and Willow known, they might have thought in that moment that her tumor was mystical and could have been cured with a spell. I was always a little pissed at the monks for messing with people's memories if that was the case.
     
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  20. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Yeah, you'd think that she must have been genetically predisposed to the cause of the tumour for the tumour to actually manifest? Like you say, we don't know whether it would have shown up at some point in a reality where Dawn didn't exist, and we'll never know.