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Did Dawn create Spuffy?

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
#1
Hi all,

So I have been wondering about this for a while. We have talked a lot about how Dawn's addition to the core group changed a lot of things in the characters life. But do you think that Dawn's presence created Spuffy? Here are my points that could prove that she was at least in part responsible for this paring:

1) Spike and Dawn's relationship proved that Spike could care for someone else then himself (that is human with a soul). We could argue that this was manufactured by the monks who wanted him as an ally against Glory.
2) This is the season that Spike realized that he cares for Buffy. He never demonstrated any real love for her except in a spell. We could argue that this changed after his brain was tempered with.
3) This is the season Buffy kisses Spike for the first time. She would never have even thought about it before because he didn't have any reason to show him he was worthy of that before without Dawn.

So here are my questions:

Do you agree or disagree with any of this?
Do you have any more ideas that could validate this concept?

Let's discuss
 

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
#3
Some would argue that the notion of him being with Buffy was put in Spikes head by Faith's comments to him during the body swap. ;)
I actually don't disagree with that it's more like how Dawn's presence in the show made Spuffy possible for the characters. Before her Spike and Buffy didn't have a common ground or a common love that they share for Dawn!
 

thetopher

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Sineya
#5
Things other than Dawn that made Spuffy 'possible':
- From an outside story perspective 'Lover's Walk' showed the comic potential and human-ish aspects of Spike on his own without Drusilla. It's why he was brought back.
- Faith's heavy flirting during 'Who Are You?' obviously stayed with Spike even into his 'having a soul' phase, referenced in 'Dirty Girls'.
- Riley; to many (including some of the writers) Briley and the lack of sexual chemistry mean that the show went looking for a 'dynamic' relationship that could never be fulfilled by Buffy being with someone 'normal' or human. It had to have a supernatural aspect. So they tried the vampire thing again.
- Demon-Spike's view of powerful women/slayers + the behavioral chip; meant obsession without the means to 'satisfy' that obsession. He could hate but he couldn't kill, he could stalk but never fulfill his desire to conquer and assert his dominance.
This coupled with his romantic view of himself and repeated shocks to the brain led to a Pavlovian 'love' response, probably in an effort to keep the demon sane; nothing to do with Monk-meddling.
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
Good point
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#6
Spike was attracted to Buffy since the first time he saw her (it's how James said he portrayed him) and flirted with her in the lead up to their first fight. "Fe fi fo fum I smell the (menstrual) blood of a nice ripe girl" "You don't strike me as the begging kind" "I kind of like them, they make me feel all manly"

In Out of My Mind it was probably not the first sex fantasy he's had about her, just the first he said "I love you". It was building up to it with his rant to Harmony about how he feels like he's being haunted by Buffy and her shampoo commercial hair.

"Hello cutie" "Hello gorgeous" "What does it take to pry apart the Slayer's dimpled knees?" "Buffy fights the forces of darkness, you're her groupies" "Do you want me to run and tell the Slayer?"

His view of Buffy was different from the rest of the Scooby group. She was the leader, Frontline fighter, demon hybrid, etc. Throughout s4 he made it clear his opinion of Buffy was different than the rest of them. And he knew not to even try turning her against her friends but easily turned them against her.

In Who Are You Faith sexually taunted him in Buffy's body because he was making it obvious he cared what Buffy thought. It was the same with the scene when she mocks Tara for having feelings for Willow.

In Superstar there is the hand going down her chest scene.

In The Yoko Factor he had a weird reaction to Adam asking why he hasn't been able to kill Buffy. It was not offense. It was like he hadn't come to grips with something. (of course the reason he hadn't killed her is she can kick his ass)

In Buffy v Dracula he had a weird tone when he said "You'll never find him in time, not before he gets to her."
 
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#7
From an outside story perspective 'Lover's Walk' showed the comic potential and human-ish aspects of Spike on his own without Drusilla. It's why he was brought back.
Spike was initially supposed to be a replacement Cordelia but, as JM said, due to Spike's inability to be in the sun, he was constantly having to enter scenes in a smoking blanket and the smoke would get too much for everyone so it became difficult to get Spike into daytime scenes.

Also originally, Lovers Walk was supposed to feature both Spike and Drusilla coming back to Sunnydale whilst in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so it was rewritten for Spike to come back on his own. Spuffy was never on the cards at that point, hence why the reasons given for the Sprusilla split are different to the ones in Fool For Love where Spuffy is a thing. At the end of Lovers Walk, Spike fully believed he could get Dru back by showing her that he hadn't "gone soft" which was the initial reason given for their split.

Demon-Spike's view of powerful women/slayers + the behavioral chip; meant obsession without the means to 'satisfy' that obsession. He could hate but he couldn't kill, he could stalk but never fulfill his desire to conquer and assert his dominance.
This coupled with his romantic view of himself and repeated shocks to the brain led to a Pavlovian 'love' response, probably in an effort to keep the demon sane; nothing to do with Monk-meddling.
That is a very interesting theory, though I still think the monks had a hand to play in Spuffy.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
#8
Also originally, Lovers Walk was supposed to feature both Spike and Drusilla coming back to Sunnydale whilst in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so it was rewritten for Spike to come back on his own.
I understand that and I'm not saying that Spike/Buffy had any potential at the time (given that, in this episode, Spike is pretty much a Bangel) but it did set the groundwork for Spike being brought onto the show the next season, which of course contributed to the end result of 'Buffy/another vampire'.

As a side-note it would've been nice to see Spike and Dru as a badass supernatural couple working together at full strength.
 
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#9
Not Dawn, no. The monks of mindfvck, yes.

Like I've said before, it can't be coincidence that some characters change drastically and that a lot of S1-4 gets retconned once Dawn comes into existence. A lot of these things (not all though) paved the way for Spuffy. Riley's balls to the wall crazy behavior makes sense if you think of it in terms of the goal of the monks. So does Spike's sudden love for Buffy. The monks want Buffy to be focused on the key and protect it. Her having a boyfriend would split her attention, so get rid of the boyfriend. Cue Riley's insanity. Buffy needs all the help she can get fighting Glory so the monks don't touch Buffy's friends too much (one is a witch after all, one is a watcher). But she also needs some extra muscle so they change Spike, hence his out of the blue wet dream=love change. Spike has no investment really in the Summers women, flick a switch on his feelings for Buffy and he will. And it's clear that they changed Spike's memories to achieve that because Lovers Walk is retconned in Fool For Love. Fool For Love is 'new Spike's' memories. Whether Spike was attracted to Buffy before the mind wipe doesn't matter as attraction is not love.

And they also changed Buffy and as a result she is weaker and less resilient than her original canon character. This new Buffy spend time in an asylum which clearly took it's toll on her psychologically. She became more reactionary, her world smaller, she gives up faster, she craves unhappiness and nothing else really, has given up on making a better life for herself. One example where they showed how much weaker this new Buffy is, was in S7. When talking about The First, I believe she said she was scared of it when she met it for the first time. One of the worst things she has ever faced, or some such nonsense. Does anyone remember Buffy quivering before old windbag back in Amends? Because I sure don't. 'New Buffy' however had a different reaction apparently.

Canon!Buffy would never get with Spike, no matter how depressed she might be. This new weaker version the monks created? Apparently.
 
Last edited:

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
#10
Spike was attracted to Buffy since the first time he saw her (it's how James said he portrayed him) and flirted with her in the lead up to their first fight. "Fe fi fo fum I smell the (menstrual) blood of a nice ripe girl" "You don't strike me as the begging kind" "I kind of like them, they make me feel all manly"

In Out of My Mind it was probably not the first sex fantasy he's had about her, just the first he said "I love you". It was building up to it with his rant to Harmony about how he feels like he's being haunted by Buffy and her shampoo commercial hair.

"Hello cutie" "Hello gorgeous" "What does it take to pry apart the Slayer's dimpled knees?" "Buffy fights the forces of darkness, you're her groupies" "Do you want me to run and tell the Slayer?"

His view of Buffy was different from the rest of the Scooby group. She was the leader, Frontline fighter, demon hybrid, etc. Throughout s4 he made it clear his opinion of Buffy was different than the rest of them. And he knew not to even try turning her against her friends but easily turned them against her.

In Who Are You Faith sexually taunted him in Buffy's body because he was making it obvious he cared what Buffy thought. It was the same with the scene when she mocks Tara for having feelings for Willow.

In Superstar there is the hand going down her chest scene.

In The Yoko Factor he had a weird reaction to Adam asking why he hasn't been able to kill Buffy. It was not offense. It was like he hadn't come to grips with something. (of course the reason he hadn't killed her is she can kick his ass)

In Buffy v Dracula he had a weird tone when he said "You'll never find him in time, not before he gets to her."
Theses are true on Spike side but what about Buffy's side? Spuffy was only possible when Buffy said yes to Spike which only happens after he begins gaining her trust in S5 and mostly because of things he does for Dawn.
 
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#11
Riley's balls to the wall crazy behavior makes sense if you think of it in terms of the goal of the monks.
I agree with a lot of what you said, however, I think Riley's Season 5 behaviour isn't as out of the blue as it first appears. He shows traits of it in Goodbye Iowa and The Yoko Factor. The Monks' spell probably sped up the process but I think we would've seen that side of Riley eventually sooner or later.
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
We are not having this discussion again lol.
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