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Did Faith have to be the weaker slayer?

Faith 2019

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I hold with the theory that two women in fiction cannot be equal to each other. The story arc with Faith has always been, at first they are equal to each other, but Buffy refused to accept that Faith or Kendra was equal to her. The downfall of Faith, was when she killed a human as a accident. Giles told Buffy, from time to time accidents do happen and he was not going to contact the Watchers with this issue. Yes, Faith as a character was a little unnatural and for some unprofessional. If she worked at grocery store working the checkout department, her after work behavior or her charming behavior could have been a positive. She was not Kendra, were she was taken away as a child and trained to become a slayer. She became a slayer, and had to deal with that as a factor. She was different then the rest of Buffy high school friends, as Faith was a high school dropout without any wish to get a GED or go back to high school. Buffy, and her high school friends wanted to finish high school and then go to college. Buffy's friends, that were to old to be in high school supported education.

After the death of the human and Faith not showing any remorse for the death. Buffy decided to push Faith outside of the group and hoped that she would leave the community. But, with Faith without a education, without a source of income -- she was really forced to choice the Mayor. Yes, it is natural not to show remorse for a ethical issue. My feeling, it was Buffy that pushed her outside of the community. It also gave the story arc were Buffy and Faith are always fighting. And with Buffy having a clear victor with stabbing Faith.

It was clear, the only way Faith was going to be accepted back is accept her remorse and accept that Buffy is the stronger slayer.
 

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After the death of the human and Faith not showing any remorse for the death. Buffy decided to push Faith outside of the group and hoped that she would leave the community.
When was this? When she decided to give Faith a chance after she killed Mr. Trick? Or after she discovered that Faith had teamed up with the Big Bad of the year? Oh, wait, I think we know the answer to this. It's not giving up on someone, if they give up on themselves first.

To answer your question, I don't think Faith was the weaker Slayer, I think Buffy was not only given opportunities that Faith never was, but she had also been doing it longer, had a support group and came from a loving home. Faith was broken long before she stepped foot on the Hellmouth. Imo. :)
 

The Bronze

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It was clear, the only way Faith was going to be accepted back is accept her remorse and accept that Buffy is the stronger slayer.
I mean to start with Buffy never forced Faith out. She wanted them to go to Giles together and explain the situation. Moving on from that she never wanted Faith to accept her as the stronger slayer either. She just wanted Faith to stop trying to kill or rape her nearest and dearest.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Faith did go to Giles - to pin the blame on Buffy. The accidental death is something they could have worked around. Blaming Buffy is not.

There are three slayers here, Kendra, Buffy and Faith. Buffy was presented as the Goldilocks choice, not as hidebound by rules and regulations as Kendra but not as reckless and antisocial as Faith. Faith and Kendra only existed to serve as contrasts with Buffy in a sense of being the road not taken. The question is not about whether Faith is weaker than Buffy but whether her mindset is better for a slayer (or a normal human) than Buffy. Might does not make right in this series and although we see Buffy and Faith almost evenly matched (also in the fight about Gwendolyn Post), the side that is adaptable without recklessness is going to win.
 

Faith 2019

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I mean to start with Buffy never forced Faith out. She wanted them to go to Giles together and explain the situation. Moving on from that she never wanted Faith to accept her as the stronger slayer either. She just wanted Faith to stop trying to kill or rape her nearest and dearest.
Forcing someone to get help is not the right choice too. Going to Giles was the correct choice, but Giles did accept Faith answer as being a accident. Because he said to Buffy that this has happened in the past and the Watchers have investigated the problems in the past. In this case, Giles was not going to confront the Watchers with this information. Since Buffy and Faith in in combat against vampires and demons, I have to look at the military for a common frame of mind. With returning former members of the military that was in combat and for a number of them: some have killed someone they should not have done so. If I had someone working with me that was in a war and they told me they had remorse for killing someone they should not have killed -- I would be uneasy working with that person. If you have feelings of guilt of killing someone when you were in a war, I really do not know were your life is going to end up. If you have to go to a mental hospital it disrupts the working community. If you end up killing yourself, it places legal problems for the company. If you come to work and kill your coworkers and end up killing yourself I could be killed or the company has legal issues. If you come back from a war, I do not want that person to feel guilty so with that logic I am fine with Faith not showing guilt as well.
 

Spanky

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If you come back from a war, I do not want that person to feel guilty so with that logic I am fine with Faith not showing guilt as well.
Statistically speaking it would be the ones that feel no guilt that you would have to worry about, as opposed to those that feel guilt; as those that feel nothing lack empathy. There have been studies correlating that to workplace and mass shootings. Empathy and compassion is a noble trait to have. Beating someone, and continually beating them to get them to 'improve' themselves is a problem.
 

The Bronze

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You lost me. What has the military got to do with the false premise that Buffy forced Faith out or the false conclusion that Faith needed to accept being the weaker slayer to get back in?
 

Spanky

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You lost me. What has the military got to do with the false premise that Buffy forced Faith out or the false conclusion that Faith needed to accept being the weaker slayer to get back in?
Because in the military apparently they shoot civilians and feel no remorse over it (nor should they) and they understand and follow the chain of command.
 
B
Btvs fan
Lucky its not one of your family that was shot then. Of course they should feel remorse if the commit murder

Faith 2019

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Statistically speaking it would be the ones that feel no guilt that you would have to worry about, as opposed to those that feel guilt; as those that feel nothing lack empathy. There have been studies correlating that to workplace and mass shootings. Empathy and compassion is a noble trait to have. Beating someone, and continually beating them to get them to 'improve' themselves is a problem.
Every president of the United States of America has used the military one way or the other during my lifetime. With the American society and culture, if the president shown empathy for the deaths of noncoms the public would abandoned that president. Every time the president used the military, I do not want someone to say the president needs grief council. Even that Faith did not show empathy, body image did show she was dealing with the issue within herself. Buffy should have given her some space and let her organize her thoughts then pushing so hard all at once.
 

Faith 2019

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You lost me. What has the military got to do with the false premise that Buffy forced Faith out or the false conclusion that Faith needed to accept being the weaker slayer to get back in?
With that story, the story arc was that with Buffy wanting empathy and Faith did not want to show it in public -- the story arc was developing that both slayers could no longer be equal to each other. You cannot say showing empathy and showing no empathy are both equal to each other. After that, Faith's role was always to be the second best slayer. The slayers had a major fight with each other and Faith lost. Faith was only allowed back after she did show empathy and guilt to Buffy and everyone else. After that, Faith always felt she was the weaker slayer after that.
 

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I honestly just think you saw the show differently, I can't for the life of me think of a moment when Buffy forcefully pushed Faith into doing whatever she wanted her to do. Can you give examples of scenes or moments?
 

white avenger

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As for who was the strongest Slayer (as in, the most skillful, since mere physical strength is only secondary) at the time of Season 3, I would say that both Slayers were pretty evenly matched, with at best a slight edge going to Buffy because of her greater experience. The only way that Buffy could eventually beat her was by using a knife. By Season 7, however, due to Faith's being in prison, and therefore "out of the game," so to speak, her experience level dropped well behind Buffy, who had been honing her skills fighting master vampires and a wide assortment of extremely powerful demons on literally a daily basis. Nothing that Faith might have encountered in prison could ever equal that, and she was simply out of practice, which was pretty obvious by how badly Angelus was able to beat her in their final showdown (unless, of course, you actually believe that her setting him up with that drug was anything but a last hope strategy)

Concerning the death of the Vice Mayor, Faith showed all of the traits of a child. First, she runs away. Second, when Buffy, her peer. confronts her with what she had done, she says, "I don't care." Then, finally, she goes to her father figure, Giles, and says, "I didn't do it, Buffy did." That's exactly what a five year old would do, and Faith, at that moment, was exactly that. A little girl, faced with a situation that she had no experience with, but instinctively knowing that she had done something terribly frightening and wrong. It makes me think that maybe something similar could have happened to her Watcher in Boston. (This is theory and conjecture, of course, but it would definitely fit the pattern) Maybe Faith did one of her "jump in blindly and count on someone else to bail her out," in this case, her Watcher, but she later did the same thing with Buffy. The difference would be that Buffy was a Slayer and capable of bailing Faith out if things went bad, whereas Faith's Watcher, despite trying, would have been hopelessly outmatched by Kokistos.

(Ultimately, Faith's big mistake with the Vice Mayor wasn't his death. Giles had already more or less dismissed that as collateral damage, tragic, but sometimes unavoidable. Giles could have forgiven that. What he couldn't forgive, at least at that moment, was Faith trying to put the blame on his Slayer and pseudo daughter, Buffy.)

And, finally, Faith exhibited the last (usually only fantasized) trait, She ran off to join the circus, to become a pirate, or, in her case, join the Mayor's team, where she would receive the support, praise, and even love, that she might very well have never experienced before. Remember, in Season 7, she described Wilkes to Robin as being "like a father to me" Faith was never evil, she was just confronted with a situation that she had no experience with, and reverted to instinct.
 

Faith 2019

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I honestly just think you saw the show differently, I can't for the life of me think of a moment when Buffy forcefully pushed Faith into doing whatever she wanted her to do. Can you give examples of scenes or moments?
Do you recall the time that Buffy and Faith were in the bedroom when Faith was in recovery from one of her fights. It was the time when they had the Scythe, a powerful weapon that slayers can feel the power of the weapon. Buffy was talking about the power it has, and gave it to Faith to hold. Faith was talking I feel the power of the weapon too and I understand what your talking about. Faith then told Faith, well this must be your weapon because really only one slayer can use the weapon. Sure, Buffy was saying were both slayers but she herself was the one that took it around. Only during the mass fighting, and Buffy was having a problem did she ask Faith to use the weapon. Faith was taken aback, and was having a shocking face on, after some thought did she use the weapon.

When the series only had less than 10 minutes left in the series. They got out of the bus, Buffy was in the center of the women, Faith was in the back and to the left of center grouping with the other women. Then it was asked, what do we do now Buffy. If they were now equal and if both slayers thought of themselves as equal -- Faith would be side by side with Buffy. Now with so many women being slayers, Faith is just now just a common slayer stuck in the back without a clear purpose. She is not even in second place anymore.

Sure, after the series they offered Eliza her own series as a slayer but she turned it down. Being type cast as second best and ending up just a run of the mill slayer. She understood no mater how much they can make her the hero of the series, the fans would look at her as second best to Buffy. She could have pulled off one season and maybe two season, but pushing into season three she understood that her series would always be compared to Buffy. If her series was cancelled without running the same amount as Buffy -- it would always hurt her professional long term career.
 
Octavia
Octavia
That scene came to my mind as well

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Do you recall the time that Buffy and Faith were in the bedroom when Faith was in recovery from one of her fights. It was the time when they had the Scythe, a powerful weapon that slayers can feel the power of the weapon. Buffy was talking about the power it has, and gave it to Faith to hold. Faith was talking I feel the power of the weapon too and I understand what your talking about. Faith then told Faith, well this must be your weapon because really only one slayer can use the weapon. Sure, Buffy was saying were both slayers but she herself was the one that took it around. Only during the mass fighting, and Buffy was having a problem did she ask Faith to use the weapon. Faith was taken aback, and was having a shocking face on, after some thought did she use the weapon.

When the series only had less than 10 minutes left in the series. They got out of the bus, Buffy was in the center of the women, Faith was in the back and to the left of center grouping with the other women. Then it was asked, what do we do now Buffy. If they were now equal and if both slayers thought of themselves as equal -- Faith would be side by side with Buffy. Now with so many women being slayers, Faith is just now just a common slayer stuck in the back without a clear purpose. She is not even in second place anymore.

Sure, after the series they offered Eliza her own series as a slayer but she turned it down. Being type cast as second best and ending up just a run of the mill slayer. She understood no mater how much they can make her the hero of the series, the fans would look at her as second best to Buffy. She could have pulled off one season and maybe two season, but pushing into season three she understood that her series would always be compared to Buffy. If her series was cancelled without running the same amount as Buffy -- it would always hurt her professional long term career.
1) I thought we were talking about S3 and Faith's 'turn' not the final season.
2) How is that evidence that Buffy forced Faith to be secondary? Every example you just gave had Faith choosing not to push herself up to Buffy's level.
3) Faith was injured and had, up until recently, spent years in prison - Buffy was the most experienced Slayer, it was her town and her house, of course she'd be the main one to use the Scythe. How is that even a question?
4) The final scene of the final episode of the final season...of a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Slayers, Plural? Of course Faith wasn't standing equal to Buffy, fans complain enough about Buffy's last word being Spike, I can only imagine the outrage if they had put someone who was only in 26 episodes next to the main character/title character.

I think you sometimes forget that this is a TV show; it's not meant to be constantly viewed under a real-world microscope. If these characters were real, or if I were to be transported into this fictional universe, you better believe I would stand up for Faith against the gang, especially in S3. However, being that that's not the case, I have to take what we got and find a way to explain why things happened the way they did. You seem intent on making it as real as possible and I think that will just lead to disappointment on your hand at every turn, sorry.
 

Faith 2019

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Yes I agree. Faith had lower self worth than Buffy until s7. Guilt could have dragged her there.
I think it was all the way to the end of the series. Two women will find something to disagree on, but, Buffy had a organized base of support that would refuse to take Faith side of the issue with some level of force. Buffy's base is interesting, from time to time she will fight her friends until they were defeated. She even got into fights with her sister Dawn Summers. With her sister, after the death of their mother, everyone said and supported to a belief that the home became the property of Buffy. Even that Dawn and Buffy are sisters, it looks to be that Buffy got the house at 100%. With Dawn, she can live in the house until she turns 18. People say that Faith as a slayer can be the equal to Buffy, they need to think of who own the house after the death of Buffy and Dawns mother.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Given that Dawn is a minor, Buffy would get the house because she is legally an adult.

Faith has no legal entitlement to the house due to the fact that she isn't related to Joyce.

Buffy having a house has no relation to whether or not Faith is equal to her.

Why do you hate Buffy and/or Faith?
 

Faith 2019

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1) I thought we were talking about S3 and Faith's 'turn' not the final season.
2) How is that evidence that Buffy forced Faith to be secondary? Every example you just gave had Faith choosing not to push herself up to Buffy's level.
3) Faith was injured and had, up until recently, spent years in prison - Buffy was the most experienced Slayer, it was her town and her house, of course she'd be the main one to use the Scythe. How is that even a question?
4) The final scene of the final episode of the final season...of a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Slayers, Plural? Of course Faith wasn't standing equal to Buffy, fans complain enough about Buffy's last word being Spike, I can only imagine the outrage if they had put someone who was only in 26 episodes next to the main character/title character.

I think you sometimes forget that this is a TV show; it's not meant to be constantly viewed under a real-world microscope. If these characters were real, or if I were to be transported into this fictional universe, you better believe I would stand up for Faith against the gang, especially in S3. However, being that that's not the case, I have to take what we got and find a way to explain why things happened the way they did. You seem intent on making it as real as possible and I think that will just lead to disappointment on your hand at every turn, sorry.
I understand the series is fantasy, as there is no real vampires or as a atheist I do not accept there are demons. With different types of religious faiths, they do support the theory of demons. And I know there is really no slayers as well. Still with current events fiction like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or with science fiction. Still, any good work of fiction being in books or in TV or movies: it needs a common understanding with the culture it is displaying.

When Buffy started with season 1, she was to become a overpowering woman. Example, the only need for Buffy needing a father is just really a man as just a sperm bank. With a strong woman as being a fictional character on TV during the last 50 years that lasted more than 100 episodes -- Buffy's father is the most underdeveloped character. It was decided to tone down Buffy being to over powerful, so they gave her a sister and Dawn being the most passive, uninteresting, annoying, weak, disorganized sister as a counterbalance to a strong woman character. In fact, after the death of their mother -- everyone accepted that the home became the property of Buffy at 100%. There was no debate or conflict between the sisters dealing with the ownership of the house. Buffy's mother, was interesting to a point until the age of Buffy got older. It got to the point that Buffy really did not need a mother, so just kill her off. With these factors, Buffy is not a common teenager within the United States or any other country.

The reason I cannot model my life being like Buffy -- because no average woman just thinks their father was just a sperm producer that just needed to fertilize a egg. Or a mother just needed to raise a daughter until she becomes unneeded to do common house hold duties. Or, having a sister that is just a after thought about a adult woman thinking about her childhood. With Faith, I did go to college and was not a high school drop out. Or, I never been arrested and never debated about prison. On the other hand, Faith is a more common type of a woman then Buffy being the more atypical and uncommon type of a woman.
 

Faith 2019

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Given that Dawn is a minor, Buffy would get the house because she is legally an adult.

Faith has no legal entitlement to the house due to the fact that she isn't related to Joyce.

Buffy having a house has no relation to whether or not Faith is equal to her.

Why do you hate Buffy and/or Faith?
If you had a sister that was a minor, and you are a adult, and your parents died and you are dealing with your parents house. Will you tell your sister I am taking the house at 100%
 
Octavia
Octavia
Yeah - perhaps down the line Dawn would have had more claim to the house, if it wasnt eaten by a hellmouth
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