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Did Faith have to be the weaker slayer?

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Buffy thinks she was in heaven. She asks if Sunnydale was hell. Those are Christian concept that have become more generalised terms.

Buffy does not control her father- otherwise he wouldn't have left to live in Spain with his secretary. Nor does she control Joyce or Dawn. Whedon seems to have an issue with parents across the board, not exclusive to Buffy.

I think @The Bronze might be right and you are trolling.

 

Spanky

Scooby
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Black Thorn
If she is that controlling with her family
Not just controlling with her family but her friends and lovers as well. That's why Buffy hated Faith because she couldn't control Faith. Faith wanted to be #1 Slayer and Buffy couldn't control her so Buffy controlled her friends to make it worse on Faith and push her out the group. Buffy was two-faced and didn't believe in helping anyone but herself. She only saved people from evil to make herself stronger and #1 slayer.
 

Faith 2019

Woman verses Woman
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Not just controlling with her family but her friends and lovers as well. That's why Buffy hated Faith because she couldn't control Faith. Faith wanted to be #1 Slayer and Buffy couldn't control her so Buffy controlled her friends to make it worse on Faith and push her out the group. Buffy was two-faced and didn't believe in helping anyone but herself. She only saved people from evil to make herself stronger and #1 slayer.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!
 

The Bronze

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Black Thorn
Then Buffy is a controlling freak with her family. If she is that controlling with her family, then we have to deal with her as a slayer. With having two slayers, and one a controlling person with her family -- it proves she would be controlling with Faith as well. If the fans are willing to accept Buffy and her atypical behavior with her family. Then the fans would be demanding that Buffy must be the controlling woman when it is dealing with Faith as well.
Got it. What about Oz though? If Buffy allows herself to be controlled by a werewolf then isn't that atypical behaviour for a blonde? If the audience can accept that then wouldn't they expect Buffy to treat Faith as a God?
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
I don't see Buffy as being controlling of anyone. She wants to be able to continue as the slayer without having her mother getting in the way. That is hardly controlling. Her father is a non-entity that only shows up in four episodes. Not only can she not control him, she can't even find him. She has the task of making sure Dawn has all the necessities and is safe and enrolled at school. She shows no attempt to control Dawn beyond what is necessary as Dawn's guardian. She has no control over Faith but fortunately, Faith seems inclined to fall in line by the time she returns in Season 7.

When Dawn forces her out of the house, Buffy does not pull rank or insist on staying. You could say she is controlling of the potentials because they are living in her house and need the training necessary to survive a vampire attack, but this is not control for the sake of control - it is only the amount of control necessary. Buffy is not a control freak of any kind. She just wants to be left to her own devices.
 

brinkster130

Riley's BFF
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Sineya
The story arc with Faith has always been, at first they are equal to each other, but Buffy refused to accept that Faith or Kendra was equal to her.
I don't know that they ever were "equal". I always thought that what made Buffy stronger and more successful as a slayer was the team she had around her. The Scoobies provided back-up, emotional support, came to her rescue, and made it so she wasn't as isolated as other slayers typically had been. Faith didn't have any of that....ever.

My feeling, it was Buffy that pushed her outside of the community. It also gave the story arc were Buffy and Faith are always fighting. And with Buffy having a clear victor with stabbing Faith.
Well, yeah. But I don't think Buffy not accepting Faith was because Faith was weaker. Buffy wasn't exactly the most open and welcoming to newcomers. She also seemed to feel somewhat threatened by Faith taking her place with her friends and Angel. She was being territorial over her life.
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
Buffy, Faith and Kendra are all equally strong it’s not like somebody came along and gave Buffy 2x power.
The story was always that Buffy was the better slayer because she had family and friends to fight for, Kendra died easily because she didn’t and Faith went crazy because she didn’t have support. But it was never about who’s stronger, the only difference between Buffy and Faith is training and the way they fight and what for not who’s stronger. Even Joss said that Faith was as strong as Buffy.
 

white avenger

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The reason I cannot model my life being like Buffy -- because no average woman just thinks their father was just a sperm producer that just needed to fertilize a egg.
I think that Sarah described her own father in exactly that manner before it was ever mentioned on the show. When te series started, Buffy adored her father, and spent the summer between Seasons 1 & 2 with him in LA, but sometime after that, he apparently married his secretary and moved to someplace in Europe. I think that it was Sarah's idea to have that element put into the story line because of her own absentee father.
 

LeeJones41

Potential
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Buffy, Faith and Kendra are all equally strong it’s not like somebody came along and gave Buffy 2x power.
The story was always that Buffy was the better slayer because she had family and friends to fight for, Kendra died easily because she didn’t and Faith went crazy because she didn’t have support. But it was never about who’s stronger, the only difference between Buffy and Faith is training and the way they fight and what for not who’s stronger. Even Joss said that Faith was as strong as Buffy.



I'm sorry, but I find this hard to accept. I don't think Buffy was automatically a better Slayer because she had her friends. I don't think it should have been that easy.

While watching Season Two, I noticed that Kendra was at her best when she was alone. Working with the Scoobies near the end of Season Two only got her killed.
 

Faith 2019

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Buffy, Faith and Kendra are all equally strong it’s not like somebody came along and gave Buffy 2x power.
The story was always that Buffy was the better slayer because she had family and friends to fight for, Kendra died easily because she didn’t and Faith went crazy because she didn’t have support. But it was never about who’s stronger, the only difference between Buffy and Faith is training and the way they fight and what for not who’s stronger. Even Joss said that Faith was as strong as Buffy.



I'm sorry, but I find this hard to accept. I don't think Buffy was automatically a better Slayer because she had her friends. I don't think it should have been that easy.

While watching Season Two, I noticed that Kendra was at her best when she was alone. Working with the Scoobies near the end of Season Two only got her killed.
Did you downloaded my mind? It was Buffy friends that kept saying that Buffy was a better slayer and it was the Scoobies that degraded Faith. When the show was debating about Buffy and Faith, it was clear that Buffy got more air time as being told she was a better slayer. The person that was defending Faith was nobody. Second, Faith only was on 20 episodes and each episodes run around 45 minutes. The goal was to make Faith the bad girl in a very short time, and rebuild her in a very short time. With 20 episodes and being 45 minutes, that is only 15 hours. To make her a bad girl took 7.5 hours and rebuilding her was 7.5 hours. Then you have to have other character development, so Faith on air was less that 15 hours.
 

Octavia

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Buffy, Faith and Kendra are all equally strong it’s not like somebody came along and gave Buffy 2x power.
The story was always that Buffy was the better slayer because she had family and friends to fight for, Kendra died easily because she didn’t and Faith went crazy because she didn’t have support. But it was never about who’s stronger, the only difference between Buffy and Faith is training and the way they fight and what for not who’s stronger. Even Joss said that Faith was as strong as Buffy.
This is a great post.

It agrees and leads into this -

The person that was defending Faith was nobody

It is a VERY hard world without support, let alone in the world the slayers live in. Faith really was "one alone" in all the world before she met Buffy. She was not sure how to take Buffy, her friends and lifestyle as it was so different from the one she came from. Similar for Kendra. Faith was made to be the underdog, and then the one who messed up and needed correction via Buffy. Its an interesting topic. Perhaps we could make another - how did Buffy impact the lives of Kendra and Faith? Did she influence them towards the light or lead them to death?

Buffy was in a higher "class" of people, safe home, loving family, college education - that was not where Faith came from. It is intimidating and unsettling to try and communicate and interact with people from such different backgrounds. Those who have the secure family and friend life have no idea what it is like outside of that, just as those who have never have it cannot understand being protected and encouraged by it. Buffy defo had an air of superiority about her, especially when it comes to Faith. This is observable in real life too where people with an education and life like Faith will "serve" the people like Buffy and Willow.

I feel like there have been some misunderstandings on this thread and some members here have been rude. Please keep posting your thoughts @Faith 2019 you are being very clear while others are just not following the thread of your thoughts as you are, I can understand how frustrating that can be and commend you for keeping your cool. I misunderstand quite often too so I appreciate you patience with me.

I like the discussion idea you have come up with and look forward to reading more thoughts. I haven't discussed Faith near on as much as I have other characters and the topic of her worth impacting her ability is a great one!
 

Btvs fan

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Faith as always been portrayed as being weaker than Buffy. In Revelations she is shown as the most bruised and beaten in that fight while Buffy is fine.
But before that there is the scene of Faith fighting Lagos and getting her arse kicked then Buffy fighting him and killing him.
Obviously Buffy almost kills her in Graduation Day and even in the script it has her ahead before she knifes her.
The only time Faith wins is when she is in Buffys body in Who Are You

Obviously there's a bit of the writers old fashioned view that heroes must always look stalwart and true and bad guys cowardly and lose. Petries commentary on the debate/concern of Spike looking heroic when he escapes the Initiative and him saying about the big debates between the writers on the Face v Face fight between Angel and Riley because they didn't want either one to lose.

Though after saying all that I don't think it's a coincidence that post show that the best Comic season storylines were with Faith and Buffys were kind of boring or in the case of the Abortion nope it's a Robot story downright insulting
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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Buffy was extremely attached to her parents and her sister. She desperately wants her father to come back. When Hank fails to show up to their birthday date, she is devastated. When Joyce gets a new boyfriend, she panics, because it will be one more obstacle for Hank to come back to her. When Hank goes awohl in Spain, you can hear in her voice that she is exhausted from his repeated rejections.

Buffy spends some time away from Joyce in S4, but she completely panics when Joyce decides to celebrate Thanksgiving without her. In "Restless," she has a guilty nightmare of leaving her behind. In S5, she moves back home after Joyce becomes ill to look after her and protect Dawn from Glory. She even agrees to let Joyce come home before her operation, when any sane person would have seen that Joyce should have stayed in hospital, giving Buffy a chance to rest. Then she breaks down after her mother dies.

Twice, Buffy get stuck in fantasy worlds were her dead mother and absentee father are back to care for her.

Buffy gives her life so Dawn can live. She does not take the house from her. She becomes Dawn's legal guardian to keep Dawn out of foster home. Buffy needs to prove to social services that she can create a safe home environment for Dawn and keep her fed and in school. Dawn uses their joint ownership of the house as an argument for kicking Buffy out of it.

Buffy has two friends that do not go to college. Cordelia is of course a peripheral friend and she initially wants to go, but she gives it up after her parental support system collapses. However, Xander is inner circle, and he never goes to college or expresses an ambition about going.

All the Scoobies want to help Faith after she accidentally kills Finch. All they want is that she acknowledges that a tragedy has occurred. Faith rewards Buffy by betrayal and Xander by strangling him.

As a super hero show, Btvs may be unsuited to disprove your women-must-be-unequal-in-fiction theory. However, after "Family," Tara possesses a strength that none of the other Scoobies do, including Buffy, and in the last episode, Buffy declares Willow as being more powerful than all the men who created the slayer line put together. The "Chosen"-spell is democratic, as it shatters Buffy's (and Faith's) exceptionality.
 

Faith 2019

Woman verses Woman
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This is a great post.

It agrees and leads into this -




It is a VERY hard world without support, let alone in the world the slayers live in. Faith really was "one alone" in all the world before she met Buffy. She was not sure how to take Buffy, her friends and lifestyle as it was so different from the one she came from. Similar for Kendra. Faith was made to be the underdog, and then the one who messed up and needed correction via Buffy. Its an interesting topic. Perhaps we could make another - how did Buffy impact the lives of Kendra and Faith? Did she influence them towards the light or lead them to death?

Buffy was in a higher "class" of people, safe home, loving family, college education - that was not where Faith came from. It is intimidating and unsettling to try and communicate and interact with people from such different backgrounds. Those who have the secure family and friend life have no idea what it is like outside of that, just as those who have never have it cannot understand being protected and encouraged by it. Buffy defo had an air of superiority about her, especially when it comes to Faith. This is observable in real life too where people with an education and life like Faith will "serve" the people like Buffy and Willow.

I feel like there have been some misunderstandings on this thread and some members here have been rude. Please keep posting your thoughts @Faith 2019 you are being very clear while others are just not following the thread of your thoughts as you are, I can understand how frustrating that can be and commend you for keeping your cool. I misunderstand quite often too so I appreciate you patience with me.

I like the discussion idea you have come up with and look forward to reading more thoughts. I haven't discussed Faith near on as much as I have other characters and the topic of her worth impacting her ability is a great one!
What kind words from my friend.

The backstory of Faith was the popular opposite with Buffy and with the average female fans of her show. The average female fan base was going to finish high school or have finished high school. And with that female fan base, in my judgement, were going to college at a higher percentage rate then then American national average. With Faith being a high school drop out, the first female character that embraced that title -- it made her different in the Buffyverse. With Kendra, she was more home schooled and was better educated then Buffy. Buffy hates to read were as Kendra embraces that as her mission to become a slayer. I never understood the Kendra story arc, as her only mission was to be better educated than Buffy and killed before we really understood her.

If Faith already finished high school and was attending college. She had support from both her parents, had a number of sisters, and she is very wealthy. If she was spending time educating Dawn, used her wealth to purchase presents like a new computer for Willow to help her with her education. If we see her reading, and explain the subjects to Willow that was more or less the better educated within her high school universe. It would be harder for the fans to accept the two women ending up fighting each other until Buffy wins.

Even that the show was in California, Sunnydale was a small town with small town values -- something that California does not display to the rest of the nation. It could be in Northern California, but it does not talk about snow in the winter or shows a vast network of trees. Sunnydale, when looking outside of the city was in southern California. With the population base of the city, it was and always was a supermajority white population, more being a collection of a pan-European population base. If there was a minority in the group -- the only minority was African-American. Sunnydale is in California, but it is not a California community. When it comes to Faith, and with her background, and her lifestyle. To be frank, she was just not designed to be white trash from Boston. But, to be the white female version of what people think about a African American female with the same family background.
 

Octavia

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I never understood the Kendra story arc, as her only mission was to be better educated than Buffy and killed before we really understood her.
Yeah that's a good one to think on. Did Buffy learn anything from Kendra? Where would she fit in this slayer hierarchy?

To be frank, she was just not designed to be white trash from Boston. But, to be the white female version of what people think about a African American female with the same family background.
Ahh that is interesting. I fell for the stereotype on Faith. I can see what you are saying.
 

Faith 2019

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Yeah that's a good one to think on. Did Buffy learn anything from Kendra? Where would she fit in this slayer hierarchy?
Kendra mistook Buffy to be a vampire because she noticed Buffy kissing Angel. Second, both slayers did not know there was another slayer. Third, it was really the first time Buffy stopped fighting and asked a question, who are you. Fourth, it was the first time she decided to end a fight and seek council to find answers about Kendra. Buffy learned to be insure, hostile, treating to kill Kendra if Angel was dead even if they are both slayers, and bragging to Kendra in the bedroom -- if we did keep on fighting I Buffy would have won the fight. She wanted Kendra to get into the cab and go to the airport and never come back. Kendra had to die in the most lame and pointless death of any character in the Buffyverse. [/quote]

Ahh that is interesting. I fell for the stereotype on Faith. I can see what you are saying.
Interesting?
 

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
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Interesting?
Maybe better wording was - New to me. Which is always fun this far into fandom!

So do you agree Kendra the bottom slayer, the least "powerful" of the three? Even though her background was traditionally slayer educated. Weaker than Faith, due to being the cookie cutter of another kind? Faith had a different sort of power - guts, Buffy had privilege (for lack of a better word) and kendra had training and confidence. The rich win, as they always do haha.
 

Faith 2019

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Maybe better wording was - New to me. Which is always fun this far into fandom!

So do you agree Kendra the bottom slayer, the least "powerful" of the three? Even though her background was traditionally slayer educated. Weaker than Faith, due to being the cookie cutter of another kind? Faith had a different sort of power - guts, Buffy had privilege (for lack of a better word) and kendra had training and confidence. The rich win, as they always do haha.
Is it not strange that women like talking about other women fighting each other or talking about other women being more stronger then the other. On the other hand, they as real women work to avoid conflict with each other but enjoy other women having conflict with each other. Food for thought sister.
 
Octavia
Octavia
That it is :)
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