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Did Fred ruin the show?

nightshade

Your grandfather is a cat
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Black Thorn
Fred comes along and we get the love triangle between her, Gunn and Wes, she's also the one prompting Angel and Cordelia to get together, did Fred joining the group ruin the friendships that they had? Did she make the show worse?
 
fauxindigo
fauxindigo
Fred inadvertently caused a lot of b.s. drama between everyone in Angel Investigations but she made the show better with her sweet af presence.

Mr Trick

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No. If she had just stayed the same character all the way through that she was in the beginning then I could possibly see that. Think there were other issues that dragged the show down at times. If they wanted to do a love triangle they would have found someone else to do it with anyway. Over time Fred became a positive on the series especially considering Cordy's decline mid-S3 on wards.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Yes. But going to Pylea in general did. It shifted the tone of the show. It wasn't the same upon their return.
 

Taake

That's right, I'm watching you...
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No. The writers' lack of imagination and "everyone must pair up or the universe will collapse in upon itself because single people shall not be abided!" attitude :p kind of made the show a bit dull through the triangle drama and "kyrumption" stuff, but I still think Fred was a great addition to the show. Cordelia's character had started to show her limitations by then, which is probably why the changed her so dramatically from then on, but adding another main female character would have balanced that out either way I think.

So it's not Fred really, just the slight shift towards the romantic relationships in general.
 

Mr Trick

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I didn't have a problem with the S3 love triangle because it impacted Wesley's character and was part of what sent him down the path to the darkside. Plus Fred and Gunn proved a likeable couple. The season 4 one was much worse because that just felt like it was done for the sake of cheap tension and it damaged Fred's character also.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Yes. After she arrived, they didn't know what to do with Cordy and she triggered the least exciting love triangle ever. She arrived at the end of the best season and died in the middle of the second best one.
 

Mrs Gordo

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No! Fred was wonderful. Sure I would agree that they made the unfortunate decision of having her champion the worst pairing on both shows (Cangel) but the girl had been in hell for years and she hardly knew Cordy and Angel so you can’t blame her for being a crap match maker. And I too hated that she was the subject of a stupid love triangle that ruined Gunn and Wesley’s bromance.

But Fred was great in s4. She was confident and grew into her own in s5. Her death was one of the most heartbreaking moments which shows an investment in the character. Also really loved Fred and Angel’s Pylea stuff. She was so kind and understanding of him. Made that whole crazy trip worth it.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Y'all are mean. :(


...But Fred didn't ruin the show by any stretch. I actually like the Fred/Gunn part of S3 a lil' bit. Mostly it led to positive development for both characters involved (unlike Cangel) and provided some crusty-British angst for Wes for being jilted.
But 'extra girl' shouldn't automatically mean 'more romance', that's a decision that the writers made and then wisely dropped in S4 when they wanted to give Fred more to do.
 

SES SA

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Well I never thought about it that way. She does seem to be in the middle of a lot of stuff that I dislike. Pylea, that love triangle, being the voice of Cangel. I think I would generally be more forgiving if she had great storylines that balanced things out. But that is basically the sum total of her time on the show. Pylea, Cangel push, love triangle stuff, Spike stuff (not the worst, not the best) and fridged. I did like her Jasmine thing, but that didn't last long. Fredless is also a pretty good episode.

And weirdly, I am not annoyed by the character. Her storylines are disappointing, her character is OK.
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
My feelings exactly .

Willow Tara

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Sineya
Fred is my favourite ATS character and Fresley is my favourite ATS couple so... I guess you know what I think about Fred.

But it's all just my opinion. :)
 
ChaseRules
ChaseRules
Not just your opinion.

Spanky

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I did like her Jasmine thing, but that didn't last long.
That's the only time I really liked that character as well. When she was sleeping with that little dude and on the run and all. Those few episodes it started to feel like a real character and not just another character's accessory. Fred was passed around more than a collection plate at church. Angel, Wes, Gun, back to Wes, toyed with the idea of Willow, toyed with the idea of Knox. Hell, toyed with the idea of Spike even in Hell Bound. She just had to be paired with someone.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Hell, toyed with the idea of Spike even in Hell Bound. She just had to be paired with someone.
What would that ship name be? Spred, Frike or Sped? (Still more preferable than Spuffy IMO)

Also Fred and Willow would be a more preferable ship than Killow. It probably wouldn't last long, but it would be a good stepping stone from Tillow to whatever Willow's next proper long term relationship was.

I don't think Fred ruined the show but I do think she was used very much in the sense of all the boys were protective of her.
 

Mr Trick

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That's the only time I really liked that character as well. When she was sleeping with that little dude and on the run and all. Those few episodes it started to feel like a real character and not just another character's accessory. Fred was passed around more than a collection plate at church. Angel, Wes, Gun, back to Wes, toyed with the idea of Willow, toyed with the idea of Knox. Hell, toyed with the idea of Spike even in Hell Bound. She just had to be paired with someone.
That's not true. She made a active choice to be with Gunn instead Wes in S3. She wasn't with Wes until S5 at which point the relationship with Gunn was long over. She went on a casual date with Knox and didn't take to him. That is a totally normal thing to do. The thing with Spike was never romantic that's what made it special.
 

Mrs Gordo

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That's not true. She made a active choice to be with Gunn instead Wes in S3. She wasn't with Wes until S5 at which point the relationship with Gunn was long over. She went on a casual date with Knox and didn't take to him. That is a totally normal thing to do. The thing with Spike was never romantic that's what made it special.
Yeah idk, while I think @Spanky may be over-exaggerating a bit it's not entirely off the mark. She does start by crushing on Angel then she is in a relationship with Gunn, she kisses Wesley and then is in a relationship with him. That is all of the main cast of the show*. And then they give her some flirty banter with Spike and you kinda wonder "dear God are they going to go there too??" Now in the comics she (Illyria... Fredyria??) is in a relationship with Angel. In fact, the commentary for "A Hole in the World" Amy and Joss acknowledge this when they were talking about the possibility of Spike being a love interest for her:

ALEXIS DENISOF: Well, who hasn't been a love interest for Fred? Let's face it.
AMY: That's true, I was the -- ... Corporate slut.
JOSS: A little bit, yeah. I mean, we cut some of the scenes of you and Accounting... 'Fred Gone Wild', but umm...

ETA: *Excluding Cordelia. :)
 
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Yeah wasn't a fan of Fred having a crush on Angel. Her looking up to him would have been fine.

thetopher

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Sineya
Geez, so Fred is a bit like Anya then.
Anya was romantically liked to Xander, Spike, kissed Giles and there was the Willow subtext (apparently). Some girls are just irresistible.

ETA: *Excluding Cordelia.
And Harmony. Good thing that they didn't pair up Fred and Harmony during that one episode.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Yeah, its more an early Season 7 thing when they're a lot nicer towards each other. *shrug* I'm usually very 'bad' at seeing girl/girl subtext.
Now that you say that there were a couple of things Anya says that could play into a Anya/Willow ship. There was something when they were doing the map spell.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Year, that's the one.
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