Did Lorne feel OOC in Not Fade Away?

[PaulParmar1]

What do you guys think?
Was Lorne out of character in Not Fade Away?

 

[Spanky]

No. Not really. Why do you think that?

 

[Fool for Buffy]

I never saw him as one to take a life. So, yes, a little. But his exit from the show was very in character.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Because he killed Lindsey?

Lorne was reluctant to do most of the dirty work - fighting and conflict were not his thing. However, Angel asked if he wanted to most likely give his life for the cause and he said he'd do Angel one last favor and then take off. Sounds perfectly in character for Lorne to help but not go very far. Him killing Lindsey was the easiest task Angel assigned. He had to follow Lindsey while they took care of some demons, and then he had to shoot a very unaware and unarmed Lindsey. Maybe murder is hard on a person, but everyone else had killed (demons and people). Lindsey was a cold-blooded person who had caused more harm than some demons and who couldn't be contained in a prison (much like a slayer). Lorne wasn't a killer but he had to be that time. Like he said, he heard Lindsey sing.

So no, not OOC imo.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Him killing Lindsey was the easiest task Angel assigned.

I think it was the hardest. Imagine Buffy trying to shoot a human being. She couldn't. Not a chance. Lorne was very anti-violence and had good morals. I just don't think it followed with what we knew that he took a life.

 

[Puppet]

Because he killed Lindsey?

Lorne was reluctant to do most of the dirty work - fighting and conflict were not his thing. However, Angel asked if he wanted to most likely give his life for the cause and he said he'd do Angel one last favor and then take off. Sounds perfectly in character for Lorne to help but not go very far. Him killing Lindsey was the easiest task Angel assigned. He had to follow Lindsey while they took care of some demons, and then he had to shoot a very unaware and unarmed Lindsey. Maybe murder is hard on a person, but everyone else had killed (demons and people). Lindsey was a cold-blooded person who had caused more harm than some demons and who couldn't be contained in a prison (much like a slayer). Lorne wasn't a killer but he had to be that time. Like he said, he heard Lindsey sing.

So no, not OOC imo.

Stop taking words out of my mouth and beating me to a thread

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I think it was the hardest. Imagine Buffy trying to shoot a human being. She couldn't. Not a chance. Lorne was very anti-violence and had good morals. I just don't think it followed with what we knew that he took a life.

Buffy and Lorne are very different, particularly since BtVS and AtS are very different. Buffy is also a hypocrite. Killing Ben would've saved the world easily and by not doing it she was in the wrong. She harmed and even killed multiple people (like the Knights) without a moment's thought. She also slept with killers (Angel included). Lorne might have been anti-violence but he was also very unscrupulous. He read the souls of any kind of creature that walked in his bar - from dangerous demons to W&H clients - and had no issue with joining W&H in season 4. Lorne was a bit indifferent to morals. Killing a person for him would've been about getting over his distaste for violence - which to him was crude and primeval, like Pylea - and not so much about the act itself.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Buffy and Lorne are very different, particularly since BtVS and AtS are very different. Buffy is also a hypocrite. Killing Ben would've saved the world easily and by not doing it she was in the wrong. She harmed and even killed multiple people (like the Knights) without a moment's thought. She also slept with killers (Angel included). Lorne might have been anti-violence but he was also very unscrupulous. He read the souls of any kind of creature that walked in his bar - from dangerous demons to W&H clients - and had no issue with joining W&H in season 4. Lorne was a bit indifferent to morals. Killing a person for him would've been about getting over his distaste for violence - which to him was crude and primeval, like Pylea - and not so much about the act itself.

Buffy killed the Knights in self defense. That does not make her a hypocrite when she preaches against cold blooded murder. And actually killing Ben would have done nothing to save the world, since Doc created the portal. But that's besides the point.

Lorne never showed any signs of willingness to participate in violence. I agree a murder for him would be less personal and more about getting over his distaste, but I don't think he could have gotten over it. He spent his entire time on earth trying to be the person who wouldn't do that.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Lorne had heard Lindsey sing, so he knew what was going to happen. Angel did not order him to kill Lindsey unexpectedly, he just told Lorne that it was time for destiny to happen.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Buffy killed the Knights in self defense. That does not make her a hypocrite when she preaches against cold blooded murder. And actually killing Ben would have done nothing to save the world, since Doc created the portal. But that's besides the point.

Self-defense or not, she killed people who were genuinely trying to save the world. And she didn't give them a second thought. If you hate the thought of killing people, knowing that it is in self-defense doesn't mean anything, And she tried to kill Faith - and was lucky she didn't succeed - to save Angel and because Faith had to be stopped. Which is exactly what Lorne was doing. If Buffy had killed Ben when Giles told her to, she would've stopped Glory from even starting the ritual which Doc hijacked. Regardless of the portal, killing Ben was always going to be a necessity in order to fully stop Glory from future attempts to kill Dawn and destroy the world.

Lorne never showed any signs of willingness to participate in violence. I agree a murder for him would be less personal and more about getting over his distaste, but I don't think he could have gotten over it. He spent his entire time on earth trying to be the person who wouldn't do that.

He tried to hit Connor with a heavy object because he was annoyed by him (he was also trying to prove that the no demon violence spell worked). He also begrudgingly joined Angel, Wesley and Gunn when they tried to take down the Beast. He may not have been a fan of violence but he helped people who used it often so he couldn't have objected that much to it.

And how do you know he spent his entire time on Earth trying not to be a killer? I think he, like most people, never thought he'd have to worry about killing anyone in the first place. It's a low bar to set - avoiding becoming a murderer.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Lorne had heard Lindsey sing, so he knew what was going to happen. Angel did not order him to kill Lindsey unexpectedly, he just told Lorne that it was time for destiny to happen.

Lorne cannot just predict the future for every event ever happening. Otherwise there is plenty he would have tried to stop. We can't know for sure (and perhaps shouldn't think that) he knew he'd have to kill Lindsey.

 

[Spanky]

It's a low bar to set - avoiding becoming a murderer.

It's higher for some people than others though.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

And how do you know he spent his entire time on Earth trying not to be a killer? I think he, like most people, never thought he'd have to worry about killing anyone in the first place. It's a low bar to set - avoiding becoming a murderer.

For someone from Pylea? No I don't think it's a low bar at all. People in his society see murder as a sport. He wanted to live his life as the opposite of his home people. He came to earth to appreciate beauty and help people. I think after being there for so long he could not take a life.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

It's higher for some people than others though.

True. People like Buffy or Faith or Giles or other demon fighters. Lorne ran a bar and stayed out of people's businesses. How many people mustn't Lorne have seen dying when he read their killers' minds? He stayed out of it. He wasn't in danger of having to kill anyone. That's why he felt so safe and happy all the time.
 

For someone from Pylea? No I don't think it's a low bar at all. People in his society see murder as a sport. He wanted to live his life as the opposite of his home people. He came to earth to appreciate beauty and help people. I think after being there for so long he could not take a life.

Well, you do make a point about Pylea, of course. That explains his dislike of violence and death. All the same, he turned a blind eye on a lot of things, so I don't believe he was that much against it - certainly not like you and I would be. But anyway, I didn't say it would be easy for him. Wesley died, Gunn was dying in NFA, Spike, Angel and Illyria were in danger. He walked away. He made a choice. I don't think this is OOC for Lorne.

 

[PaulParmar1]

For me it was very OOC.
Lorne imo did not need to take a life & it was in poor taste for him to kill Lindsey imo.

 

[Spanky]

Lorne was part of the team. The team was called to take action. He took action.
Lorne associated with killers and people who were morally grey for years. Sooner or later when you 'work' with those people you are expected to 'work' with those people. They finally called Lorne's number. He would an even more worthless creature if he said 'no I wont do it' and left. He made his bed and he laid in it. He knew the risks involved with associating Angel Investigations.

 

[PaulParmar1]

Lorne was part of the team. The team was called to take action. He took action.
Lorne associated with killers and people who were morally grey for years. Sooner or later when you 'work' with those people you are expected to 'work' with those people. They finally called Lorne's number. He would an even more worthless creature if he said 'no I wont do it' and left. He made his bed and he laid in it. He knew the risks involved with associating Angel Investigations.

I think the difference was that while Lorne was an ally. Was he really ever part of the team of going into battle? He was often used for comedic relief imo. I thought it was bad writing & didn't ring true to Lorne.

 

[Spanky]

I think the difference was that while Lorne was an ally.

Didn't he live the hotel with them? He was part of the team.

Was he really ever part of the team of going into battle? He was often used for comedic relief imo.

A very similar argument could be made for Xander. Wasn't that the whole part for Zeppo? If Xander was a Scooby then most certainly Lorne was part of Angel Investigations.

 

[Grace]

It really doesn't even matter if Lorne was part of the team or not before Power Play / Not Fade Away. He was in Angel's office when Angel asked if they were in for the big showdown with the Circle of the Black Thorn. Lorne agreed, so no matter what came before, he was in for this mission.

I do think it was out of character, in the sense that it wasn't something Lorne would usually do. But I disagree that it was bad writing. It was very much treated like something that was out of character in the scene. Lorne's disgust with what he was doing and his decision to walk away afterward made sense. If he would have just killed Lindsey no sweat, that would have been bad writing.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I don't think Angel should have asked Lorne to kill someone... and that seems like the mistake in the writing. I agree that Lorne's reaction was reasonable, given the character he was. I don't think any of the AI team would have killed a human being (in cold blood) without being uncomfortable about it. I do think Lindsay was dangerous, but I'm not sure that cold blooded murder was the answer to that, though in Angel's defense, he believed this was his last hurrah. Still, it left a sour taste in my mouth, because AI are supposed to be the good guys and good guys may kill in a fight, but they don't do murder. And because... well, truthfully? I liked Lindsay. He was my favorite villain. He was... fun! He didn't deserve to go out like that, particularly after throwing his lot in with Angel and company. Angel betrayed Lindsay and used his friend to do it. He didn't even have the respect for either Lorne or Lindsay to do the deed himself.
 

Lorne cannot just predict the future for every event ever happening. Otherwise there is plenty he would have tried to stop. We can't know for sure (and perhaps shouldn't think that) he knew he'd have to kill Lindsey.

I agree. I think if he'd known he 'should' kill Lindsay, he'd have had fewer issues with it. He was on the whole someone who avoided violence, but he wasn't incapable of fighting when it was necessary. I imagine he saw quite a lot... only a few times did he try to stop things he saw. I can't believe that running a demon bar, he didn't see a lot of people planning questionable things. As we're shown repeatedly, prophecy and pretty much all attempts to view and predict the future had unexpected results... for both sides in the fight. W&H would never have given Angel the L.A. branch if they didn't think they could corrupt him -- and they had great seers. I don't think it played out like a movie or evidence in a courtroom... and even those can be confusing!!