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Did Xander ever do something evil ?

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#1
Okay, we know, that Giles killed Ben and summoned a demon during his Ripper days. And he conspired with Robin to kill Spike. Willow killed Warren and did some disturbing spells, like the memory wipe for example. Faith killed Finch, as well as the vulcanologist and became an ally of the Mayor. Anya chose to become a vengeance demon and killed hundreds or at least hurt them. Dawn summoned a vengeance demon and went all clepto-girl. Cordy did very strange things on AtS. tara did a spell that nearly got Buffy killed, because she couldn`t see the demons that were attacking her. Oz cheated on Willow with Veruca and he attacked Tara once. I can`t really remember Buffy doing evil, except maybe the time she was beating up Spike. But she is our hero and (almost) always flawless.

I was wondering about Xander. Did he ever go evil ?

He tried to rape Buffy in The Pack, but he was posessed by a demon. He lied about not remembering it. He also lied about Willow`s message in Becoming Part 2. Instead of "I will restore his soul" he passed on the message "Kick his ass". But he had very good reasons for that (it has been the topic of another thread a short while ago).
He said he summoned Sweet, the singing demon, but actually I have never believed that. I believe, that Dawn summoned Sweet and he tried to cover up for her.

He left Anya at the altar, but although it was wrong, I would not actually call it evil.

The last thing I can think of, is, that he went after Spike with an axe. That was bad. But in the end no harm was done. At least not with that axe.

Is Xander Harris the only Scooby who is and stays true and good over the course of 7 seasons ?

flow
 

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#2
I don't know that I would say he stays good, but perhaps the simple answer is that it's because he's powerless. We all know that famous quote that was, among other things, used in Spiderman. "With great power, comes great responsibility." And we know that power can corrupt. If you have no power, perhaps it's simply easier to stay on the path of good, as much as possible at least.

I don't personally think he's ever done anything truly evil, nor do I think his intentions were ever bad, even when his actions could be seen as such by some.
 
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Sineya
#3
He summoned Sweet, and therefore got loads of people killed. I know some people speculate that Xander was covering for Dawn but that's never stated in the episode so Xander did summon Sweet. Also being with Anya was morally wrong to me.
 

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#4
He summoned Sweet, and therefore got loads of people killed. I know some people speculate that Xander was covering for Dawn but that's never stated in the episode so Xander did summon Sweet. Also being with Anya was morally wrong to me.
I also think he was the one behind it, I've never heard the theory about him covering for Dawn and it falls flat to me, considering the scene where he admits it. However, I wouldn't call that evil; evil would be knowing exactly what Sweet would do, how many he would kill, and still going through with it. I believe Xander when he says he didn't know what the spell would do, that, imo, makes him ignorant and naive, not evil.
 
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Sineya
#5
I also think he was the one behind it, I've never heard the theory about him covering for Dawn and it falls flat to me, considering the scene where he admits it. However, I wouldn't call that evil; evil would be knowing exactly what Sweet would do, how many he would kill, and still going through with it. I believe Xander when he says he didn't know what the spell would do, that, imo, makes him ignorant and naive, not evil.
It doesn't make Xander evil but it is a very serious thing and considering how nobody even blinked an eye at it in the show I think it's important to see it as something that does stain Xander's record.
The Dawn thing is a fan theory so it's fine if people believe it but it can't be used as fact :)
 
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#6
I think Xander was covering for Dawn. Here's the thing, Sweet was all ready to take Dawn back to his world to be his bride because she was wearing his amulet. However, when Xander said he was responsible for summoning Sweet, Sweet decided he'd rather leave alone instead.

If you go by the theory that Xander actually was the one to summon Sweet, and Sweet could sense that hence why he didn't want Xander as his "Queen" (either because Sweet doesn't want a male lover or Xander's gender means he can't be "queen") then why was Sweet going to take Dawn if it's a case of summoner=queen.

Xander's "admission" all hinges on the idea that Sweet believes him. However, if Xander was telling the truth and Sweet could "sense" that was true, why did Sweet want to take Dawn since he thought she summoned him and he would've been able to "sense" if she had or not? If Xander was lying, why did Sweet never call him on it?

My guess is that Dawn was the one that inadvertently summoned Sweet (since he didn't appear until AFTER the amulet was in her possession), but since it was clear the scoobies weren't just going to let her go without a fight, Sweet just decided to cut his losses and run.
 

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#7
I think Xander was covering for Dawn. Here's the thing, Sweet was all ready to take Dawn back to his world to be his bride because she was wearing his amulet. However, when Xander said he was responsible for summoning Sweet, Sweet decided he'd rather leave alone instead.

If you go by the theory that Xander actually was the one to summon Sweet, and Sweet could sense that hence why he didn't want Xander as his "Queen" (either because Sweet doesn't want a male lover or Xander's gender means he can't be "queen") then why was Sweet going to take Dawn if it's a case of summoner=queen.

Xander's "admission" all hinges on the idea that Sweet believes him. However, if Xander was telling the truth and Sweet could "sense" that was true, why did Sweet want to take Dawn since he thought she summoned him and he would've been able to "sense" if she had or not? If Xander was lying, why did Sweet never call him on it?

My guess is that Dawn was the one that inadvertently summoned Sweet (since he didn't appear until AFTER the amulet was in her possession), but since it was clear the scoobies weren't just going to let her go without a fight, Sweet just decided to cut his losses and run.
I don't think Sweet could 'sense' who summoned him, though, I think it was simply a matter of finding the person who had the amulet, and that happened to be Dawn. I also don't think the amulet is enough, there is a ritual (spell) needed, and I believe that Dawn didn't perform it. I really do believe that Xander did this, that he wasn't covering for anyone.
 
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#8
But messing around with spells is completely out of character for Xander, whereas Dawn broke into the Magic shop, visited a demon and stole some other demons eggs to do the spell that would bring Joyce back.

Also Xander must have done the spell before Dawn stole the amulet. It would be quite a coincidence, that she steals exactly the amulet, he has just used a minute before to summon a demon with.

And Sweet is certain, that Dawn summoned him.

flow
 

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#9
But messing around with spells is completely out of character for Xander, whereas Dawn broke into the Magic shop, visited a demon and stole some other demons eggs to do the spell that would bring Joyce back.

Also Xander must have done the spell before Dawn stole the amulet. It would be quite a coincidence, that she steals exactly the amulet, he has just used a minute before to summon a demon with.

And Sweet is certain, that Dawn summoned him.

flow
I don't find it out of character for Xander to mess around with spells; just because he doesn't do it often, he has a habit of not thinking things through; Amy doing the love spell is an example, making a book go on fire in S4 is another. To that end, Dawn has only been shown doing magic once and it was in grief over a lost parent.

Coincidences are what make the show, lol. Dawn found it in the magic shop, it isn't that difficult to assume that Xander left it lying there, probably thinking it had done its job and not wanting Anya to realize it was missing and figure out what he had done.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Xander setting a book on fire was not intended to be a spell.
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Sineya
#10
[QUOT E="DeadlyDuo, post: 1287178, member: 13738"]My guess is that Dawn was the one that inadvertently summoned Sweet (since he didn't appear until AFTER the amulet was in her possession), but since it was clear the scoobies weren't just going to let her go without a fight, Sweet just decided to cut his losses and run.[/QUOTE]

People were already singing by time Dawn found the amulet in the magic box so clearly Sweet was in town and already summoned by then.
 
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#11
But messing around with spells is completely out of character for Xander, whereas Dawn broke into the Magic shop, visited a demon and stole some other demons eggs to do the spell that would bring Joyce back.

Also Xander must have done the spell before Dawn stole the amulet. It would be quite a coincidence, that she steals exactly the amulet, he has just used a minute before to summon a demon with.

And Sweet is certain, that Dawn summoned him.
Agreed. What episode did we see Dawn steal the amulet? She took it before OMWF and Sweet didn't turn up until that episode. He didn't appear before the amulet was in her possession. Also summoning spells don't tend to have delayed reactions. You don't go "I want to summon a demon but I want it to arrive next Tuesday!", when you summon something, it's almost instantaneous. Even in "Fear Itself", the spell started working instantaneously.

I don't think Dawn deliberately summoned Sweet as I don't think he was summoned by incantation. However the hoops you have to jump through for Xander to be the one to do it is ridiculous:

1. Xander would have to forget that he hates demons.

2. Xander would have to forget what happened last time he tried to use magic to fix a situation (Bewitched, Bothered ad Bewildered).

3. Xander would have to forget the time he told Willow off for trying to use magic to fix a situation (Lovers Walk) after his previous experience above.

4. Xander would have to forget that he has no clue how to do magic (He needed Amy for BB&B).

5. Why would Xander think summoning a demon is a good idea?

6. Why would Xander join in the number "I've got a theory", even suggesting "it could be witches", if he knew all along what it was? His "I've got a theory, it could be witches" should be "I've got the answer, I screwed up big time".

7. If Xander knew people were dancing to death, he would admit his culpability, not just shrug his shoulders and act like he doesn't know what's going on.
 

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#12
Agreed. What episode did we see Dawn steal the amulet? She took it before OMWF and Sweet didn't turn up until that episode. He didn't appear before the amulet was in her possession. Also summoning spells don't tend to have delayed reactions. You don't go "I want to summon a demon but I want it to arrive next Tuesday!", when you summon something, it's almost instantaneous. Even in "Fear Itself", the spell started working instantaneously.

I don't think Dawn deliberately summoned Sweet as I don't think he was summoned by incantation. However the hoops you have to jump through for Xander to be the one to do it is ridiculous:

1. Xander would have to forget that he hates demons.

2. Xander would have to forget what happened last time he tried to use magic to fix a situation (Bewitched, Bothered ad Bewildered).

3. Xander would have to forget the time he told Willow off for trying to use magic to fix a situation (Lovers Walk) after his previous experience above.

4. Xander would have to forget that he has no clue how to do magic (He needed Amy for BB&B).

5. Why would Xander think summoning a demon is a good idea?

6. Why would Xander join in the number "I've got a theory", even suggesting "it could be witches", if he knew all along what it was? His "I've got a theory, it could be witches" should be "I've got the answer, I screwed up big time".

7. If Xander knew people were dancing to death, he would admit his culpability, not just shrug his shoulders and act like he doesn't know what's going on.
Hey, I never said it wasn't full of plotholes, but @Athene makes the perfect point above your post.
 
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Sineya
#13
Agreed. What episode did we see Dawn steal the amulet? She took it before OMWF and Sweet didn't turn up until that episode. He didn't appear before the amulet was in her possession. Also summoning spells don't tend to have delayed reactions. You don't go "I want to summon a demon but I want it to arrive next Tuesday!", when you summon something, it's almost instantaneous. Even in "Fear Itself", the spell started working instantaneously.

I don't think Dawn deliberately summoned Sweet as I don't think he was summoned by incantation. However the hoops you have to jump through for Xander to be the one to do it is ridiculous:
Dawn steals the amulet in OMWF right before 'Under your spell' and it's clear that Sweet has already been summoned by then so it's not Dawn that summoned him, it's clearly Xander as the show states. I don't know where the mystery is apart from it being a bad plot twist- which is was but it's still canon.
 
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#14
I have thought upon the nature of good and evil a lot, and also make some other distinctions, like "survival" in which the normal rules can't apply, as well as other categories like "reckless/stupid" which aren't evil (though they can be just as harmful). I'll spare you the essay that even just sums up how I define things as "good" and "evil" (and the other categories that also exist when neither "good" nor "evil" as I define it apply), but I think I should point out that I obviously have a different way of measuring this than you do.

That aside, I'll have to say Xander is flawed who was not always good, and could be quite wrong (thus didn't stay "true and good" all the way through), but I also never saw him as committing a deliberately evil act under his own volition, though going after Spike with an ax (which I see as very wrong) was so close and problematic that I could be convinced otherwise there--but there are many factors I'm considering here, and had Spike been human then that alone could push it into an "evil act."

'Course one committing an evil act doesn't necessarily make one an evil person. Even the saints can be pushed into murder under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean they then transform into Faith after she accidentally killed someone.
 
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#15
Dawn begins to sing and mercifully, Sweet's henchmen throw a bag over her head and drag her off to Sweet. He sings his part:

WHY'D YOU RUN AWAY
DON'T YOU LIKE MY STYLE?

WHY DON'T YOU COME AND PLAY
I GUARANTEE A GREAT BIG SMILE

I COME FROM THE IMAGINATION
AND I'M HERE STRICTLY BY YOUR
INVOCATION

(unraveling a
parchment that looks
like an invitation)
SO WHAT'D YOU SAY
WHY DON'T WE DANCE A WHILE

and further on, still singing only to Dawn:

YOU BROUGHT ME DOWN AND DOOMED THIS
TOWN

SO WHEN WE BLOW THIS SCENE
BACK WE'LL GO TO MY KINGDOM BELOW
AND YOU WILL BE MY QUEEN

After this, Spike finds one of the henchmen who says:

HENCHMAN
(spoken quickly and flatly)
My master has the Slayer's sister
hostage at the Bronze because she
summoned him
and at midnight he's
gonna take her to the underworld to
be his Queen.

and in the confrontation scene:

SWEET
I don't make the rules; she summoned
me.


DAWN
I so did not! He keeps saying that!

SWEET
You've got my talisman on, sweet
thing.


(Dawn looks down at the necklace, realizes.)

DAWN
Oh! But -- no! I just -- this at
the Magic Box... on the floor, and I
was cleaning and I forgot to... But
I didn't summon anything.

Dawn is later shown to be a klepto, so it seems likely that she stole it from The Magic Box and activated it somehow, maybe just by wearing it.

Another bit of evidence is that everyone sings the truth as they see it, but Dawn never had time to get it out or possibly the understanding that putting on the necklace was going to summon the associated demon. Xander sings, but never mentions casting a spell so according to the text, he claims responsibility (just to keep Sweet from taking Dawn) but according to what he sings, he never did anything - he is just covering for Dawn.
 

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#16
Going back to the original question, I would say if one is to say Xander never did anything evil, it's only because he didn't have the power to harm people the way others did. He still did plenty of things that were morally wrong, they just don't compare to what more powerful beings do when they do something morally wrong. Despite that, the attempted manipulation and control of Cordy in Bewitched is evil, and that very nearly had some serious consequences.
 
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#17
About Once More With Feeling, the episode is filled with flaws when it comes to who summoned Sweet. I mean Xander sings in a song about WHO SUMMONED SWEET and he never says a thing. Even though secrets comes out when you sing. That's IMO evidence enough that he didn't summon him.

But clearly the show says he did, so clearly it was him. Even though he knew people were burning because of the spell and he still said nothing.

Xander is a psychopath. He's more evil than any of the other characters.


Leaving overrated episodes with inexcusable plotholes aside, I agree with the others who said that since Xander didn't have powers, it was easier for him to stay on the path of good. However, Xander could easily seek higher powers if he wanted to. Remember when he asked Amy to do the spell? Remember when he went behind Buffy's back and egged Faith into murdering Angel? Xander is capable of evil and is capable of finding power to do evil. He just didn't.
 
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#18
The Dawn thing is a fan theory so it's fine if people believe it but it can't be used as fact :)
But what do you make of the fact, that Xander did not sing the truth then, when he sung about who summoned Sweet ?

But clearly the show says he did, so clearly it was him
Do you rule out the possibility, it could have been Dawn ?

I have a third theory. Someone else summoned Sweet, left the amulet afterwards in the Magic Box where Dawn found and took it and Xander believed her to be the culprit and covered up for her.

If @Athene is right, that Xander summoned Sweet, than he has clearly done evil. But if he hasn`t, he is the only one of the Scoobies to stayed firm to the motto "Don´t do evil".

I believe it diminishes his achievement a bit, to say, that is wasn`t an effort for him, because he has no supernatural powers. A lot of people do evil without having supernatural powers. It can`t be that difficult for a "normal" human being.

flow
 
That aside, I'll have to say Xander is flawed who was not always good, and could be quite wrong (thus didn't stay "true and good" all the way through), but I also never saw him as committing a deliberately evil act under his own volition, though going after Spike with an ax (which I see as very wrong) was so close and problematic that I could be convinced otherwise there
I agree that he wasn`t always good and true. The way he left Anya at the altar was very wrong although he was actually right in not marrying her. I also agree that the way he went after Spike with an axe maybe was very questionable.. Yet I would not count it, because Spike did not get (physically) hurt. Do you think it makes a difference, that he only attempted it and did not commit it ?

flow
 
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Sineya
#19
But what do you make of the fact, that Xander did not sing the truth then, when he sung about who summoned Sweet ?
Maybe at the time Xander just didn't connect what was happening with what he did with the amulet? We don't know how much Xander knew about what he was summoning.
 
F
flow
Good Point !

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#20
Maybe at the time Xander just didn't connect what was happening with what he did with the amulet? We don't know how much Xander knew about what he was summoning.
I agree. In his own words, he just wanted to ensure a happy ending for him and Anya, there is no saying he had any clue what the end result of the spell would actually be, even taking away the burning and dying aspect.
 
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