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Discussion of 1.06 "The Pack" - Aired 4/7/1997 (WB-US)

The Bronze

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#61
I assume you give Spike a total pass on the AR then? Under the influence of a demon, and all that. I don't see the difference, and I don't give Spike a pass.
I just put the blame where it belongs. Soulless Spike gets the blame for Soulless Spikes actions. No blame for William or Soulled Spike for what was done while missing a soul.

He was honest and he learned. Xander never learned
There wasn't anything to learn, he knew he wasn't a rapist and he carried on not raping anybody.
 
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#62
I just put the blame where it belongs. Soulless Spike gets the blame for Soulless Spikes actions. No blame for William or Soulled Spike for what was done while missing a soul.


There wasn't anything to learn, he knew he wasn't a rapist and he carried on not raping anybody.
This isn't about rape - that happened, and even if I hold Xander (and Spike) as more responsible than you do - that's not the issue. The issue is personal growth and responsibility. He said he didn't remember. He lied to his friends about knowing everything he did. Why? When is it best to lie to your friends?
 

The Bronze

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#63
He lied to his friends about knowing everything he did. Why? When is it best to lie to your friends?
When telling them the truth doesn't do anybody any good. Xander was the victim of possession and he felt more comfortable to draw a line under it and move on. Buffy was already fine around him and could draw a clear distinction between possessed and normal Xander. So why make things awkward for everyone?
 
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#64
When telling them the truth doesn't do anybody any good. Xander was the victim of possession and he felt more comfortable to draw a line under it and move on. Buffy was already fine around him and could draw a clear distinction between possessed and normal Xander. So why make things awkward for everyone?
We have very different ideas of close friendships, trust and truth then.
 

The Bronze

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#65
We have very different ideas of close friendships, trust and truth then.
Yeah I think we must do. I simply don't believe that sharing everything is always the best option. Some things are better kept private for the benefit of everyone.
 
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#66
Yeah I think we must do. I simply don't believe that sharing everything is always the best option. Some things are better kept private for the benefit of everyone.
Different boundaries - it happens. I don't share everything, but if I had hurt a friend, even inadvertently and with no intent, I wouldn't feel awkward owning up to it and apologizing. I expect the same from my friends.

And if it was particularly vicious (Billy) I would definitely spend some time trying to figure out my own actions. What came out of Wes was inside Wes - Billy released the misogyny but I suspect the taunts and the callous actions were a mirror of his father. That is hell - to realize how you have internalized your abuser.
 
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#67
I think we can all agree that it wasn't really Xander who tried to rape Buffy as he wouldn't do that. I agree with @The Bronze and @thetopher that his age at the time needs to be taken into account about the fallout. Actually think that he goes on to be a very mature character, but still with the odd human error like us all.
 
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#68
They weren't possessed. They were transpossesed. Their own personality, wants and desires were augmented by the animal. They were not under the thrall of the animal.
Willow: Why couldn't Xander be possessed by a puppy or, or some ducks?

Buffy: That's assuming 'possession' is the right word.

Giles: (comes over from the cage) Oh, I'll say it is. The Masai of the
Serengeti have spoken of animal possession for, for generations. I... I
should have remembered that.

Zookeeper: The students have been possessed by the hyenas?

Giles: Yes.


They had control. They had desires and acted on them. It was stated on the show: it's more like an infection.
So, Xander and the others could have stopped themselves from eating the alive pig and the principal? 'Cause I'm sure as hell know it's something the wouldn't have wanted to do. Why didn't they stop?
 

The Bronze

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#72
Then why does Xander blame Angel for Angelus?
It's the difference between in show and out of show perspective. As viewers looking in we can clearly see the difference between Angel with and without soul, just like we can for Xander Hyena or no Hyena. In the show Xander is a 16 year old kid getting introduced to all of this new information and the distinction is harder to make. He does eventually come to terms with this for both Angel and Spike.

Also it's not like Xander is completely insane to distrust Angel with a soul. He does still eat people and try to end the world even with his soul in place!
 

thetopher

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#73
Also it's not like Xander is completely insane to distrust Angel with a soul. He does still eat people and try to end the world even with his soul in place!
It's nice that Xander somehow knows not only all about Angel's past but also about what Angel will go on to do do in the future.
For a while I just thought his was a petty, jealous jackass when in came to Angel in S1 and 2, but now I see his deep wisdom. ;)

Maybe he should've done the same thing with Anya! Y'know, look back over all that mass murder that she commited with a soul and everything, then he wouldn't be so hypocritical.
 

The Bronze

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#74
It's nice that Xander somehow knows not only all about Angel's past but also about what Angel will go on to do do in the future.
For a while I just thought his was a petty, jealous jackass when in came to Angel in S1 and 2, but now I see his deep wisdom. ;)
It's a gut feeling that he has based on an initial read of the situation and it turns out he's not a million miles off the mark. He's not right to lump Angel all into one package with or without a soul but remembering he still has some demon in him and is potentially dangerous isn't an unfair assessment.

Maybe he should've done the same thing with Anya! Y'know, look back over all that mass murder that she commited with a soul and everything, then he wouldn't be so hypocritical.
I agree. I think he should have run for the hills! However to give him a bit of credit the situation with Anya was complicated. She appears to have kept her soul throughout but there is definitely talk of how she has a new "personality" or "significant change" now that she's Anya Jenkins rather than Aud or Anyanka. As Anya she never actually got around to killing anyone, helped out with the Scoobies and loved Xander. Again from my point of view I think Xander was crazy to get that close to someone with a history like that but it wasn't completely clear cut either.
 
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thetopher
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Well, I see your point.
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#75
think we can all agree that it wasn't really Xander who tried to rape Buffy as he wouldn't do that. I agree with @The Bronze and @thetopher that his age at the time needs to be taken into account about the fallout. Actually think that he goes on to be a very mature character, but still with the odd human error like us all.
The hyena didn't try to rape Buffy. Xander trans-possessed tried to rape Buffy.

So, Xander and the others could have stopped themselves from eating the alive pig and the principal? 'Cause I'm sure as hell know it's something the wouldn't have wanted to do. Why didn't they stop?
They were hungry - they wanted food. I suspect that without the degree of humanity they had, they wouldn't have made it out of the zoo. Hyenas don't bully, dress, hang out in school halls and play dodge ball either. Amazing we all see how much human, how much of each person, is still in there until suddenly it's - nope, just the animal.

Xyena raped Buffy while carrying on about Angel - and it had absolutely nothing to do with his feelings about her?
 
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#76
The hyena didn't try to rape Buffy. Xander trans-possessed tried to rape Buffy.



They were hungry - they wanted food. I suspect that without the degree of humanity they had, they wouldn't have made it out of the zoo. Hyenas don't bully, dress, hang out in school halls and play dodge ball either. Amazing we all see how much human, how much of each person, is still in there until suddenly it's - nope, just the animal.

Xyena raped Buffy while carrying on about Angel - and it had absolutely nothing to do with his feelings about her?
But its pretty clear that it was the Hyena side of him which resorted to attempted rape, because there's no way Xander would do that.
 
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#77
But its pretty clear that it was the Hyena side of him which resorted to attempted rape, because there's no way Xander would do that.
Really? I think it's more that the hyena possession opened the door and let the real Xander out. Sorry, I could go for this if Xander was in all ways animal, or even if he attempted to rape a non-specific girl and Buffy had to fight him off. This was a deliberate attempt to rape Buffy, for reasons that Xander felt strongly about without any hyena spirit! I will agree that he was never gonna express in that way without the hyena.
 
Spanky
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That's pretty much what is said in the episode. "It wasn't the hyena"
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#78
Really? I think it's more that the hyena possession opened the door and let the real Xander out. Sorry, I could go for this if Xander was in all ways animal, or even if he attempted to rape a non-specific girl and Buffy had to fight him off. This was a deliberate attempt to rape Buffy, for reasons that Xander felt strongly about without any hyena spirit! I will agree that he was never gonna express in that way without the hyena.
I think that's a total insult to the character and men in general. You're basically that being attractive to a girl you can't have naturally leads to rape. Despite his inmature side and character flaws Xander has a basic understanding of right and wrong. There is no way he would knowlingly do it that I am certain of. It was Xander in that moment.
 

The Bronze

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#79
I do wonder what the odds are of the only time in 30 odd years of Xander's life that he attempts to rape somebody is while he is possessed by a demon but it not being the demon who is responsible.
 
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#80
I think that's a total insult to the character and men in general. You're basically that being attractive to a girl you can't have naturally leads to rape. Despite his inmature side and character flaws Xander has a basic understanding of right and wrong. There is no way he would knowlingly do it that I am certain of. It was Xander in that moment.
I do wonder what the odds are of the only time in 30 odd years of Xander's life that he attempts to rape somebody is while he is possessed by a demon but it not being the demon who is responsible.
Yeah - as I said, the hyena opened the door. I'm not saying that Xander would ever rape in other circumstances - but I do see a reason why Buffy was the victim and Xander said what he did. That's why I say Xyena - the 2 are inextricably mixed.
 
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