• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Discussion of 1.08 "I Will Remember You" - Aired 11/23/99 (WB-US)

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
4,162
Age
33
Location
CA
Sineya
the Mohra demon looks stupid and it seems impossible that there are demons capable of making vampires human just roaming around without anyone (watchers, the slayer) knowing, in particular when they can heal anything! The Oracles also look absurd
This is a good point. You think that Angel or the Watchers would know about this. Doesn't the Mohra demon say that more of them will come? If there are a lot more then surely they might have encountered a vampire before and accidently turned them human. Also why is Angel not trying to find more Mohra demons to get their blood and perhaps cure other vampires? Is it because Angel already had a soul that it even worked?

But personally I love all the Bangel stuff. It breaks my heart at the end.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,318
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
You think that Angel or the Watchers would know about this. Doesn't the Mohra demon say that more of them will come? If there are a lot more then surely they might have encountered a vampire before and accidently turned them human.
I'm fairly certain the Mohra demon is a very rare sort of demon, doesn't the research just turn up obscure passages about them being bad-ass warriors of the underworld?
Like that Vocha guy in 'To Shanshu In LA' I always took that to mean that their the evil equivalent of champions like Angel or Groo. Then again the Buffyverse was never clear about some of that stuff. For example was Der Kinderstod a singular demon or one of an entire species? Not clear.
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
24
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
This is a good point. You think that Angel or the Watchers would know about this. Doesn't the Mohra demon say that more of them will come? If there are a lot more then surely they might have encountered a vampire before and accidently turned them human. Also why is Angel not trying to find more Mohra demons to get their blood and perhaps cure other vampires? Is it because Angel already had a soul that it even worked?
Yeah, Angel just seems to forget about it until the Angel&Faith comics. I'm not sure what happens there, but I do know Angel gets some Mohra's blood. For Giles I think? Maybe Angel decides to forget about the whole thing including the Mohra demon, painful memories and all. Mohra is just one of those examples of things that change the way we look at the Buffyverse but are treated like plot devices and ignored. Spike getting a soul is one of those plot devices. It makes you question how easy it is to get a soul, how did Spike know how to get one, did Angel know too? We never get the answer to these questions.

But personally I love all the Bangel stuff. It breaks my heart at the end.
It really does :(

I'm fairly certain the Mohra demon is a very rare sort of demon, doesn't the research just turn up obscure passages about them being bad-ass warriors of the underworld?
Probably.
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
4,162
Age
33
Location
CA
Sineya
I'm fairly certain the Mohra demon is a very rare sort of demon, doesn't the research just turn up obscure passages about them being bad-ass warriors of the underworld?
Like that Vocha guy in 'To Shanshu In LA' I always took that to mean that their the evil equivalent of champions like Angel or Groo. Then again the Buffyverse was never clear about some of that stuff. For example was Der Kinderstod a singular demon or one of an entire species? Not clear.
they might have been, I don't remember. But still, if it cures vamps someone had to have known.
With the exception of vampires, I don't remember seeing a demon species more than once between the two shows. Which kinda bothers me. It feels like theres an infinite amount of demons. I wish the shows were a bit more finite.

Mohra is just one of those examples of things that change the way we look at the Buffyverse but are treated like plot devices and ignored.
yes. And I hate those! Don't tease me with something and then don't develop it properly! I hate when shows don't follow through.
 
Carrie Hopewell
Carrie Hopewell
Agree with everything. It's better when the possibilities of what can happen are limited. Sometimes the shows go overboard and don't follow through.

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
2,657
Sineya
What is Angel trying to do ???

Angel will never be completely over Buffy...

Buffy :eek:

Angel, give Buffy an explanation, because the story is not a long one :p

Cordy's right, Buffy and Angel can talk for hours...

What's going on right now is not the Buffy and Angel show :(

Buffy sure knows how to use a stake, I've seen her abilities with it :D

Bangel is confusing :p

Angel, Buffy can more than handle herself ;)

Angel's bleeding, is he becoming human ??? o_O

Angel seems to hate being human :(

He's going crazy, and he hates yogurt...

Angel can also see his reflection :eek:

Angel gets to speak to the powers that be, and he gives them a watch.

The powers that be are very confusing...

Buffy seems a little shocked, I can understand.

Doyle's right, Buffy and Angel deserve to be happy :)

Angel and Buffy are having a talk about the future now that Angel's human, smart :)

Now they are starting to do the dirty, with food...

Doyle and Cordy are upset as they supposedly don't have jobs anymore :(

Buffy finally gets to feel like a normal girl :)

Doyle, let's not wake Buffy up, OK ???

Human Angel sucks at fighting...

Cordy, why would Buffy care about you ??? you hurt her...

Buffy shows up out of nowhere, again :rolleyes:

She smashed the jewel on his forehead, does that mean Angel's a vampire again ???

Angel's asking the powers that be to become a vampire again, but it will cost him that day o_O

Angel's right, he is a liability to Buffy.

and they kiss :rolleyes:

and time turned back :(

Next time: Doyle dies.
 

BuffyBot22

Scooby
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
928
Age
27
Location
US
I absolutely loved this episode. It was heartbreakingly poetic.

Buffy coming to L.A. just to tell off Angel was a very Buffy thing to do. I didn't get the whole I came to see my dad thing either. I was under the impression that they were not close. I also assume she said it to save face.

The sewer scene was great. It paralleled well with the break up sewer scene in BtVS. I especially loved when Buffy said "being around you is confusing" and Angel said "it's not just confusing, it's unbearable." It really showed how much not being with her is killing him and how sacrificing his own happiness to protect her. This also foreshadows how he will have to do this again later in this episode.

Now Angel is human and as soon as Doyle asks him "then what do you want?" We immediately flash to the amazing kiss scene in the sunlight. It was so obvious he only wanted Buffy. But then back to reality and they try to rationalize what to do about this like cautious adults because they know nothing ever pans out for them like they want it to. But the connection is just too strong for them to resist and then we get some cute bed scenes. I enjoyed this, because we get to see a happier side to their relationship that we don't get much of in Buffy. She was so happy and I was happy for her. She got be normal even if it was just for a moment. But the truth is, is she is not normal and never will be no matter how much she wants it.

This is where I start to have some issues with the episode. The Mohra demon is back so Doyle comes to warn Angel and he asks "Don't you wanna wake the girl? and Angel says "Not for the world." This is when I thought to myself "Are you stupid? Her job description is to save the world. She is a lot stronger than you even when you were a vampire." It just really felt like he was trying to prove something to himself, that he could still fight. Either way Buffy still comes in to save the day like she always does.

But what the Mohra demon says really triggers Angel into realizing that something is up. So he goes to the Oracles for answers and they give him the vaguest description "she will die like all mortals, just sooner than most" I was like yeah duh, she is a slayer, they usually don't even make it to 18. So like no real newsflash here higher beings. So now Angel has a decision to make and he decides to beg for her life and sacrifice his own happiness. I find that very noble, and he had to make a quick decision before the Oracles kicked him out of there. It would have been nice if he could have consulted Buffy, but the fact of the matter is is that he couldn't. The only issue I have with this, is did Angel doubt her abilities as the slayer? She is a very skilled fighter and very capable of taking care of herself and her less gifted, more human friends. So I'm conflicted about this decision just like I feel Angel was. So he had to make the best decision he could with choices and time given to him. So he chooses to save her. This ties directly into his hero complex, but also because he loves her and he knows he would hate himself if he had a chance to save her and passed it up just for a few moments of happiness. The guilt of just that alone would eat him alive more than anything he did as Angelus, because at least as Angelus he has no soul. He would have felt directly responsible if anything had happened to Buffy and he didn't try everything in his power to save her life.

Then he comes back home and Buffy instantly knows something is up. She is not stupid. I respect his choice in telling her. Plus now we get a perfectly heartbreaking Bangel scene. Also SMG and DB's acting in this scene is superb. The fact that SMG was actually crying because she was so sad to see this love story go really helps to sale this scene for what it was supposed to be. My heart breaks for her when she says "another minute, it's not enough time."

The bam we are back at the beginning scene with Angel looking at the clock when she says "In enough time we should be able.." and Angel says "to forget" This was perfectly placed because he was the only one who would never forget and she did no matter how much she said "I'll never forget" before their time ran out. He would be the only to carry that day and what could have been around forever (literally since he is immortal). I can't help but feel sorry for Angel is this scene.

Overall, I thought the episode was very well written with all the parallels, poetry, symbolism (the clock), and foreshadowing. I mean I knew from the moment he was turned human it was not going to work out because come on it's Bangel, they have to rip your heart out but more importantly they just did a spinoff all centered around Angel, he couldn't just go back to Sunnydale. So, I think the writers came up with a pretty great way to turn him back into a vampire with a soul. Maybe they could have done it differently, like when Buffy killed the Mohra demon, it automatically turned him back into a vampire. But I just don't think this would have resonated with me as much or would have had the impact it did as whole. It would have seemed to be a cheap way out and then we wouldn't have gotten the beautiful angsty Bangel scene and heartbreaking poeticism.

Idk, anyone else have a realistic way they could have turned him back without losing the significance of the meaning of this episode?
 

Mylie

Scooby
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
2,098
Age
33
I absolutely loved this episode. It was heartbreakingly poetic.

Buffy coming to L.A. just to tell off Angel was a very Buffy thing to do. I didn't get the whole I came to see my dad thing either. I was under the impression that they were not close. I also assume she said it to save face.

The sewer scene was great. It paralleled well with the break up sewer scene in BtVS. I especially loved when Buffy said "being around you is confusing" and Angel said "it's not just confusing, it's unbearable." It really showed how much not being with her is killing him and how sacrificing his own happiness to protect her. This also foreshadows how he will have to do this again later in this episode.

Now Angel is human and as soon as Doyle asks him "then what do you want?" We immediately flash to the amazing kiss scene in the sunlight. It was so obvious he only wanted Buffy. But then back to reality and they try to rationalize what to do about this like cautious adults because they know nothing ever pans out for them like they want it to. But the connection is just too strong for them to resist and then we get some cute bed scenes. I enjoyed this, because we get to see a happier side to their relationship that we don't get much of in Buffy. She was so happy and I was happy for her. She got be normal even if it was just for a moment. But the truth is, is she is not normal and never will be no matter how much she wants it.

This is where I start to have some issues with the episode. The Mohra demon is back so Doyle comes to warn Angel and he asks "Don't you wanna wake the girl? and Angel says "Not for the world." This is when I thought to myself "Are you stupid? Her job description is to save the world. She is a lot stronger than you even when you were a vampire." It just really felt like he was trying to prove something to himself, that he could still fight. Either way Buffy still comes in to save the day like she always does.

But what the Mohra demon says really triggers Angel into realizing that something is up. So he goes to the Oracles for answers and they give him the vaguest description "she will die like all mortals, just sooner than most" I was like yeah duh, she is a slayer, they usually don't even make it to 18. So like no real newsflash here higher beings. So now Angel has a decision to make and he decides to beg for her life and sacrifice his own happiness. I find that very noble, and he had to make a quick decision before the Oracles kicked him out of there. It would have been nice if he could have consulted Buffy, but the fact of the matter is is that he couldn't. The only issue I have with this, is did Angel doubt her abilities as the slayer? She is a very skilled fighter and very capable of taking care of herself and her less gifted, more human friends. So I'm conflicted about this decision just like I feel Angel was. So he had to make the best decision he could with choices and time given to him. So he chooses to save her. This ties directly into his hero complex, but also because he loves her and he knows he would hate himself if he had a chance to save her and passed it up just for a few moments of happiness. The guilt of just that alone would eat him alive more than anything he did as Angelus, because at least as Angelus he has no soul. He would have felt directly responsible if anything had happened to Buffy and he didn't try everything in his power to save her life.

Then he comes back home and Buffy instantly knows something is up. She is not stupid. I respect his choice in telling her. Plus now we get a perfectly heartbreaking Bangel scene. Also SMG and DB's acting in this scene is superb. The fact that SMG was actually crying because she was so sad to see this love story go really helps to sale this scene for what it was supposed to be. My heart breaks for her when she says "another minute, it's not enough time."

The bam we are back at the beginning scene with Angel looking at the clock when she says "In enough time we should be able.." and Angel says "to forget" This was perfectly placed because he was the only one who would never forget and she did no matter how much she said "I'll never forget" before their time ran out. He would be the only to carry that day and what could have been around forever (literally since he is immortal). I can't help but feel sorry for Angel is this scene.

Overall, I thought the episode was very well written with all the parallels, poetry, symbolism (the clock), and foreshadowing. I mean I knew from the moment he was turned human it was not going to work out because come on it's Bangel, they have to rip your heart out but more importantly they just did a spinoff all centered around Angel, he couldn't just go back to Sunnydale. So, I think the writers came up with a pretty great way to turn him back into a vampire with a soul. Maybe they could have done it differently, like when Buffy killed the Mohra demon, it automatically turned him back into a vampire. But I just don't think this would have resonated with me as much or would have had the impact it did as whole. It would have seemed to be a cheap way out and then we wouldn't have gotten the beautiful angsty Bangel scene and heartbreaking poeticism.

Idk, anyone else have a realistic way they could have turned him back without losing the significance of the meaning of this episode?
First, let me just say that I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the episode. It's one of my favorite AtS episodes and I never get tired of discussing it.

Second, I completely understand how someone can find Angel's decision of going to kill the Mohra demon without Buffy stupid. That said, it's totally in character and it makes sense for me and not even for the reason he said. Buffy JUST told him that she finally felt that this is the first time that she feels like a normal girl. I can't blame Angel for not wanting to wake her up this soon and remind her that she isn't really a normal girl.

As for another way he could have been turned back without losing the significance of the episode, I can't see any other way that doesn't involve him making the choice to be turned back. That's the whole point of the episode, at least for me. Now that Angel has become a fighter, he's not okay with getting an easy way out. He'll keep sacrificing until he has nothing left to lose. I don't see how the episode could have achieved this without him making the decision himself.
 

BuffyBot22

Scooby
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
928
Age
27
Location
US
First, let me just say that I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the episode. It's one of my favorite AtS episodes and I never get tired of discussing it.

Second, I completely understand how someone can find Angel's decision of going to kill the Mohra demon without Buffy stupid. That said, it's totally in character and it makes sense for me and not even for the reason he said. Buffy JUST told him that she finally felt that this is the first time that she feels like a normal girl. I can't blame Angel for not wanting to wake her up this soon and remind her that she isn't really a normal girl.

As for another way he could have been turned back without losing the significance of the episode, I can't see any other way that doesn't involve him making the choice to be turned back. That's the whole point of the episode, at least for me. Now that Angel has become a fighter, he's not okay with getting an easy way out. He'll keep sacrificing until he has nothing left to lose. I don't see how the episode could have achieved this without him making the decision himself.
Yes, I love this episode as well. I'm glad that you enjoyed my take on it!

Oh, I totally agree. Angel was most definitely in character by going to kill the Mohra demon without her. It goes back to that hero complex he has. And you make a very good point about how he heard her just express how great it feels to be a normal girl. I was just personally frustrated by his decision to not tell her, but he was def in character and it helped further the point of the episode.

Once again, I agree. No other solution would have made the point the episode was trying to get at. I feel like after this episode is when we see the Champion in Angel start to emerge instead of just fighting the good fight because he has nothing else to do.
 

Antho

Scooby
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Messages
2,048
Age
26
Location
Montauban (France)


What a lovely episode :rolleyes: Oh I mean this is a pleasant episode for a Bangel fan and I'm one of them, so this is good for me. I can't imagine the torture that it is for a Spuffy fan :D. Of course, I'm kidding :p and I'm also a little angry because one of you could have told me I will have need a pack of tissues :(.

The Time ! This fundamental notion which represents an infinite environment (middle) in which the events follow one another. We would like to be able to turn back time to repair the mistakes of the past, to stop it to enjoy eternally the best moments, to turn forward it in the unfortunate situations. It allows us to forget, to live fully, to surpass pain, but it also makes us languish, separates us from the beings we love and for an immortal, it has no end ! Whether it flows slowly or quickly, whether it is an ally or an enemy, one thing is certain, it is precious ! I think that as far as the Bangel is concerned, time is an important factor in the relationship, but I will talk about it later. Angel adjusts his clock to put back it at the hour, it is 8:56 am, his day begins and he doesn't know yet but the day will end in the same way as it started, by the needles of the time which go back up in the reverse.

Buffy arrives in Los Angeles and her introduction is perfect because that's the results of the crossover between both series which began in "The Bachelor Party" with the vision of Doyle showing Buffy in danger, which continued in "Pangs" , episode of Buffy where Angel was to Sunnydale to protect her while hiding his presence, and the conclusion is in "I Will Remember You" the episode that sees the arrival of Buffy, here for explanations. For me it was also necessary, for the fans of Ats only, to do this presentation because the influence of Buffy on Angel and the importance of the place that she occupied in his life, was felt, without being there physically, she was omnipresent.

The confrontation between Buffy and Angel at the office is interesting because I realize that, now, there is a new dynamic between them due to their separation and their independence. They are evolving separately, each on their own and this discussion allows them to realize that none of them has the right to enter the world of the other and to act at will. Each of them must respect the privacy of the other. Especially that Angel's intervention at Sunnydale makes Buffy the victim, the damsel in distress, which she has always refused to be ! I think they both need to understand that. The shocking entrance of the Mohra comes to get them out of their passivity and put them back into action. What fight :) ! When Buffy falls on Angel, it must be confessed that, generally, it is cliché the lips that are irresistibly attracted, but it worked well on BTVS for Alex and Cordelia, and it still works here for me because Bangel is a relationship based on a sexual frustration and the touch is part of the prohibition that they fix to each other to avoid ceding into the temptation. The looks they launch express a repressed attraction.

The conversations in the sewers become a habit for Bangel who, it must be remembered, had separated in a situation similar to this one. I like the idea that is transmitted in this passage because it corresponds to my personal vision of the couple. As I said before, Time is an important factor in the relationship and this moment shows it perfectly. Time has no effect on them, although they evolve separately, even if they aren't in the same city, even if they love someone else, there will always be feelings between them, they are deeply anchored in one to another, they lived a love relationship they will never forget not matter the trial. Love survives between them ! After all they didn't separate because they no longer loved, but because they knew, and this is always the case, this relationship has no future. That's explains why each time they see each other feelings reappears because they aren't dead, just buries ! Time and distance reduce the lack but everything rises very quickly to the surface. I am not saying that they are meant to be together or she won't love no one else like Angel, I am only convinced that a part of them will always love the other no matter what separate them !

Angel finds the Mohra demon and he fights. The blood of the mohra mixes with his and he becomes HUMAN ;). It's a new and interesting storyline. Vampire can be human, completely human and not just have a human soul.. Do you think the Mohra's blood restores soul ? Because it has had this effect on Angel but he already had a soul, I'm wondering the effects on a soulless vampire ! The plot of the demon Mohra is a little under-exploited to the benefit of the Bangel but it is not disturbing, I'm sure we will talk about it later in the series because it is an extraordinary discovery ! I love seeing Angel throw himself on thefood, it's cute and so human .. He discovers the taste of things. It's a pleasure to see him as alive ! And Doyle's question "what do you want?" .. Of course, he wants the girl :).


The kiss on the beach is really wonderful :rolleyes:. Angel gets out of the shade, walk in the direction of Buffy in full sun ;) and kiss her :rolleyes:. What kiss ! Be honest, all girls want to be embrace like that.. Buffy didn't understand what happened, too surprised by the moment. That's a dream come true what she lives but I'm sure everything went so fast that she didn't even realize. It is magic and beautiful !


It is 5:03 pm when Angel and Buffy take tea, which reminds me that communication is not one of their strengths. They are all timid, acting as if the fact that Angel is human does not change the situation. It's true, it's not as if they finally could let their feelings express themselves since there is no longer the barrier of the curse ^^. I do not say that this is the only problem of their couple, but the beginning of the scene makes me laugh, see them drink tea and pretending that nothing has changed while they both think the other way ^^. Mostly, Bangel, abstinence it's a been a long time they know, so now that the opportunity presents itself, it would be stupid to do nothing. So I screamed FINALLY when they threw themselves one on the other, with angel who put on the floor all there were on the table ;). A good scene of sex, that's what they both needed :rolleyes:. What a plesasure to see them like that, finally all sexual desire repressed for years finds satisfaction.


Ice cream on David's torso ;), I think that at this moment girls must be jealous of SMG :p and I love David's smile who is just so cute. I see a Bangel very handsome, innocent, normal and that give me a smile ! They both live a dream.. When I look Buffy I feel like I'm watching the Buffy of Season 1 fighting all the time for a normal life and avoid that her life as a slayer takes over her personal life. She is sensitive, shows a really touching vulnerability, she gives envy to take care of her and I am glad that Angel is the man who gave her a moment, a single, of normality in his life. For once she felt like all the other girls of her age and I think it was the best gift he could give her.


I do not know if it would have really worked between a human Angel and Buffy. The Bangel in me wants to say yes because I really love them together, their love is pure and sincere for me ! But on the other hand the impossibility, the melodrama around, in a sense it is also what does the charm of the couple, that is what makes the whole mysteriously endearing.
Why this kind of story has success ? Because it is the impossibility that makes it the beauty ! We so want them together that we worry but maybe the magic would disappear if it was the case. In any case, it could have been like Briley, a normal relationship, with perhaps the same problems, including the fact that normalcy is not suitable for Buffy even though the beginning is euphoric. The contrasts could also be interesting because if Riley suffered the fact that Buffy is stronger than him, for Angel the problem would be that he lost of his own strength.

When Doyle comes to wake up Angel telling him that the Mohra is alive and when Angel leaves leaving Buffy, well I understand his reaction. It's in character, and Angel will never want Buffy taking risks for him. I can understand him on this point. Plus, he wanted to let Buffy in her dream and maybe that's unconscious to go alone fight against the demon, maybe some say he underestimates the strength of Buffy, i don't know, but I can understand him !

The last scene is a heartbreaking moment . For me, Angel has done the right thing by telling her the truth, that's a proof of respect. Of course it would have been better if he had talked to her before taking the decisions but the situation was urgent and the oracle weren't/aren't patient.. The dream breaks and it's the total collapse for Buffy and Angel. The fairy tale ends and painfully, but especially for Angel because the worst for me is to continue your life while you have the memories of a better life. Buffy, in a way she is lucky that her memory is erased even if of course it's her who tear off most of the tears :( because her happiness, her perfect day, her normal day, the one she always wanted, all of that is taken away from her ! The cry are full in intensity and pain. The connection between Buffy and Angel reaches an absolutely "Shakespearian" splendid and tragic dimension. It's tearful but it's what does the beauty and gives savor. A great TV moment, Sarah and David shine through their performances of a quality rarely equaled on the show for me. The involvement of the actors must be applauded because it seems extremely realistic to me as a moment, with a very touching sincerity and expressed with tenderness. Just magnificent :) ! As Buffy, "I will never forget" ! Back in time, it does its work and it's 9:02 am when Buffy finally leaves unconscious of the dream she has lived, this short moment of 6 minutes for her represents several hours of immense happiness sacrificed for Angel.


Angel's decision is understandable even if we can obviously question ourselves about the reasons that led him to do this choice. I think that consciously he sacrifices his humanity to protect Buffy, I'm sure that for him he acts only for that purpose. But this is a reason that only half convinces me because of course he will not protect her eternally (maybe in the present from the Mohra threat but not the others in the future. Maybe he repulsed her hour of death ? This part of the episode is confused !) since they live in two different cities, so this excuse is a little light and it's a pity because that reduce Angel's sacrifice impact but for me it's a script/scenario error. Plus, I think this is voluntary, they needed a noble reason and what more noble than a sacrifice by love ? Now I'm sure that Angel, even unconsciously, also takes this decision for him. I do not know if he would have endured his human condition, playing hero, saving life, it would have missed him.. After, we don't need to have super powers to be a hero, you just have to see Alex, but I think it's easier to be directly human in this case because you did not take taste in power since you never had it. The reverse, so move from the vampire to the human, I think it must be more difficult to live and accepted because you are aware of what you have lost, even if it is compensated by other positive aspects.
 
Last edited:
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Respect. I think its a needless episode with flaws. But can see why it appeals to some.

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
I love this episode. Brings me to tears each time :)

My thoughts ::

I love Buffy in this. You get to see this really vulnerable, soft side of her that is rare. Truly, her love for Angel literally lights her up and softens her completely. Knowing that he's human and they could be together gives her this happiness that we never see again in my opinion. I think it's heartbreaking. I think this episode really shows that those who say she never really loved him are living in complete denial. It's clear she would literally give up everything for him and to be honest I don't think that ever changes.

Angel in this is super adorable. I love the playfulness and gentleness that being with Buffy brings out in him. Enjoying chocolate and cuddling, it's a lighthearted Angel that is genuine.

I don't like Cordelia in this at all. She seems unnecessarily bitchy to Buffy. She comes across as jealous and spiteful, and to me that doesn't fit her character. I never got the impression that she was jealous or envious of Buffy in any way on BTvS, and to have her talking crap and having a hissy fit about how Buffy can't have everything and how she ruins everything she touches is actually really gross and immature. Even Doyle calls her out on it and she doesn't deny it. Anyway she annoyed me lol .

I feel the Powers That Be are seriously manipulative in this. The oracles claim he is rewarded by being human, but the PTB still send Doyle visions....and then the whole Buffy will die part. I don't know I felt like strings were being pulled.

Anyway, this is all around a great episode, especially for Bangels. :) a nice send off too honestly for these 2 characters. I will always love it!
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
24
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
I don't like Cordelia in this at all. She seems unnecessarily bitchy to Buffy. She comes across as jealous and spiteful, and to me that doesn't fit her character. I never got the impression that she was jealous or envious of Buffy in any way on BTvS, and to have her talking crap and having a hissy fit about how Buffy can't have everything and how she ruins everything she touches is actually really gross and immature. Even Doyle calls her out on it and she doesn't deny it. Anyway she annoyed me lol .
Cordelia is incredibly naive in this episode. Truly, how much of the Buffy and Angel "show", as she called it, has she witnessed? She acts like she knows Angel and Buffy's relationship, yet she doesn't, at all. What experience does she have in love? Has she ever been though the shit Angel and Buffy went through? All of her guesses are wrong. She assumed that Angel was going to kill himself, which is absurd. She assumed Buffy and Angel were fighting because they "always" fight, except they never fight physically - they have a peaceful relationship despite circumstances. She assumed that Buffy had killed Angel which is pathetic since Buffy would never kill Angel. She said that Buffy couldn't have Angel and save the world, but she didn't have any proof of that.

I disagree with this behavior being atypical of Cordelia. She's always been the person to speak her mind, but that doesn't mean she's always right. She's dead wrong a lot of the time. "Tact" isn't not saying true stuff. Tact is saying the truth while respecting someone's feelings. Insensitive is the word she was looking for. Cordelia as young as she is, loves to act like an experienced 40 year old. Before the joined the A.I. team, she was sheltered from a lot of the crap that happened in Sunnydale. She was the girl who could be a cheerleader and popular while occasionally joining in on the fighting. She was self-centered and only did what she wanted to do, only saw what she wanted to see. And Cordelia has been jealous of Buffy on some occasions: when she couldn't get Angel because of Buffy, when she couldn't reach Xander because of Buffy, when Buffy became popular and more respected than Cordelia in her own way, etc. I thought Cordy's behavior on IWRY was the worst of high school Cordelia, and highlighted flaws she has on Ats too. Flaws that get her killed.

Anyway, this is all around a great episode, especially for Bangels. :) a nice send off too honestly for these 2 characters. I will always love it!
Yep. IWRY is the episode I watch the most. I watch it on a long train ride and when I'm feeling down, or whenever I want to watch it :).
 
GraceK
GraceK
I love rewatching it as well. And it always gets me weepy!!!

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
Cordelia is incredibly naive in this episode. Truly, how much of the Buffy and Angel "show", as she called it, has she witnessed? She acts like she knows Angel and Buffy's relationship, yet she doesn't, at all. What experience does she have in love? Has she ever been though the shit Angel and Buffy went through? All of her guesses are wrong. She assumed that Angel was going to kill himself, which is absurd. She assumed Buffy and Angel were fighting because they "always" fight, except they never fight physically - they have a peaceful relationship despite circumstances. She assumed that Buffy had killed Angel which is pathetic since Buffy would never kill Angel. She said that Buffy couldn't have Angel and save the world, but she didn't have any proof of that.

I disagree with this behavior being atypical of Cordelia. She's always been the person to speak her mind, but that doesn't mean she's always right. She's dead wrong a lot of the time. "Tact" isn't not saying true stuff. Tact is saying the truth while respecting someone's feelings. Insensitive is the word she was looking for. Cordelia as young as she is, loves to act like an experienced 40 year old. Before the joined the A.I. team, she was sheltered from a lot of the crap that happened in Sunnydale. She was the girl who could be a cheerleader and popular while occasionally joining in on the fighting. She was self-centered and only did what she wanted to do, only saw what she wanted to see. And Cordelia has been jealous of Buffy on some occasions: when she couldn't get Angel because of Buffy, when she couldn't reach Xander because of Buffy, when Buffy became popular and more respected than Cordelia in her own way, etc. I thought Cordy's behavior on IWRY was the worst of high school Cordelia, and highlighted flaws she has on Ats too. Flaws that get her killed.



Yep. IWRY is the episode I watch the most. I watch it on a long train ride and when I'm feeling down, or whenever I want to watch it :).
I love hearing your thoughts!!! You always give me something to think about and a new perspective. I think your analysis of Cordelia in this is spot on. Truly, one thing that always annoyed me about her in this series is her know it all attitude. She acts like she knows how bad Spike is in In the Dark, she acts like she has first hand knowledge of Angelus when he barely acknowledged her existence in Sunnydale, and her view of Buffy has always been warped. That's why her " I miss her too" was seriously disgusting in Heartthrob.

Despite all these flaws however, I do really love her, at least before season 4 and later half of season 3.

Also I think Doyle would have been great for her :)
 
Carrie Hopewell
Carrie Hopewell
Thank you!! And I agree with your analysis. Also, Doyle was so grounded that he suited her well.
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
Agree except I never loved her

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
8,054
Location
UK
Best episode yet. It's the first time I've really felt an episode was all about Angel. (Although Cordy and Buffy nearly acted him off the screen, SMG seems to bring the best out in DB's acting) I thought the way they played with Angel's aliveness, with the light and food and seeing his reflection were all really well done and captured the overwhelming nature of this change for him.

I enjoyed the drama of the episode, the angst of Bangel played out really well and was very affecting. You just cannot help feeling for Buffy and everything she's had snatched away from her. I thought it was sweet when they were sat at the kitchen table discussing the situation, trying to be rational, when really they should have just grabbed the joy of it and worried about consequences later :) (Glad they finally got to it in the end)

As usual they are stuck on this 'normal girl' riff, which Buffy will one day realise she will never be and therefore never have a normal life, and hey what's normal anyway. Can't help wondering if alive-Angel is a version of Riley, and foreshadowing that relationship?

As for Angel's decision, I'm torn, because I understand why he did what he did, and how difficult it was for him, but he cannot predict the future, and he knows prophercies don't always come true. He should know better than making decision that affect others so deeply without discussing it with them first :mad:

This season would be better if every episode had Angel front and centre, make it his character we care about as in this episode.
 
Antho
Antho
I totally agree with you :)

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,335
Location
Germany
To me it always felt like a set up to a test for Angel by the PTB. How do you best test Angel's commitment to the cause? You tempt him with the thing he wants most at that point in time, Buffy. The whole sequence of events, from Doyle's vision in 'Bachelor Party' to the end of IWRY are suspect to me. Angel was not needed in Pangs though I guess one could argue that the warrior about to stab Buffy from behind would have succeeded if he wasn't there. But technically Angel was useless.

To me it seemed that the powers just wanted to get Buffy to L.A. (too many people in Sunnydale that could interfere) so the whole thing could get started. How convenient is it then that the demon that attacks them is not only extremely rare (and probably not even from this dimension) but also with blood that has regenerative powers and who regenerates as well. Angel then goes to the Oracles (Powers) and they tell him he is a free man. So he gets to have his time with Buffy and then oops, Mohra is still around and a threat. So Angel of course doesn't want to wake Buffy (let her be happy like she said she was) and because it's Angel's nature to be a warrior so he wants to take the thing out. Now however he is powerless against such a strong demon so he has to be saved by Buffy who almost gets killed in the process.

Angel knows now that his warrior instincts will make him act like that again in the future and put Buffy at risk. So he goes to see the Oracles again because of that. That for me was the biggest clue that this whole thing was a set up. Angel shouldn't have been able to enter the realm of the Oracles again. Doyle said only warriors are allowed in, Angel was no longer one of them as the Oracles themselves said during the previous visit. They of course tell him that Buffy will die because of him so he begs for her life. When that doesn't work he offers his own life. And because this proves Angel is willing to sacrifice anything for the lives of others (like a true worthy warrior), the test was over. That's why it makes sense that their solution is to wipe the day completely and that Buffy doesn't remember (she is also one of their warriors) so she can continue on as she did before the events of the episode.

They wanted to test Angel. And he passed.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
I like this theory, makes sense

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,841
Age
40
Location
London, UK
I admire this episode for the acting and because like RS said it is an important test of Angel as a character. I still find it a bit gimmicky and uneeded though.
 

Mylie

Scooby
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
2,098
Age
33
I admire this episode for the acting and because like RS said it is an important test of Angel as a character. I still find it a bit gimmicky and uneeded though.
Out of all the buffyverse episodes, this is the one that gets considered unneeded? lmao

How can an episode that serves to test the lead character and helps define his mission in the very first season of the show can be considered unneeded?Especially compared to most stand alone episodes of season 1 or even better an episode like Waiting in the wings where literally nothing happens and who was obviously made just so Joss could do the ballet episode he wanted to do. And I'm not even saying that episode was unneeded, it definitely has it's fans who enjoy it. But as far as characterization or plot goes, it did very little and definitely less than IWRY. Yet IWRY seems to be a problem for you the way WITW isn't, why? Probably because you don't care for Bangel or maybe even for Angel. But it is an extremely important episode for Angel and to deem it unneeded is dismissing how important Buffy was in Angel's life, which I don't understand even coming from fans who dislike Bangel.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,358
Age
20
Sineya
I admire this episode for the acting and because like RS said it is an important test of Angel as a character. I still find it a bit gimmicky and uneeded though.
Even if you disregard the fact that it sets Angel on his path and forces him to decide that he has to commit fully to his mission as a champion and sets up the theme of the show that the fight will never stop, this episode also gives Buffy the thing she will never get: a happy ending. And that was important because Buffy deserved it but it couldn't ever happen. So the show managed to give it her without actually giving it to her. I think that's pretty brilliant. I think both of those reasons are pretty sufficient to make this episode needed.
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,841
Age
40
Location
London, UK
Out of all the buffyverse episodes, this is the one that gets considered unneeded? lmao

How can an episode that serves to test the lead character and helps define his mission in the very first season of the show can be considered unneeded?Especially compared to most stand alone episodes of season 1 or even better an episode like Waiting in the wings where literally nothing happens and who was obviously made just so Joss could do the ballet episode he wanted to do. And I'm not even saying that episode was unneeded, it definitely has it's fans who enjoy it. But as far as characterization or plot goes, it did very little and definitely less than IWRY. Yet IWRY seems to be a problem for you the way WITW isn't, why? Probably because you don't care for Bangel or maybe even for Angel. But it is an extremely important episode for Angel and to deem it unneeded is dismissing how important Buffy was in Angel's life, which I don't understand even coming from fans who dislike Bangel.
To say that nothing happens in Waiting the Wings simply isn't true. If that's nothing happening then boy that nothing can happen every week. It does move the plot on. It moves Cordy and Angel's relationship on, and it moves the Wes/Fred/Gunn plots on or certainly grows their characters. Besides the meassure of a good episode isn't always how much plot or characters advanced. Think I've said it before. I like Angel as a character, but think he functions better without Buffy, just like she functions better without him. Besides, their relationship had peaked. The end of season 3 was the perfect way for them to part, bar the odd meet up. I don't hate IWRY. There's a lot of good things in there, but it was just a indulgence to have one last slice of Bangel (there was more at the end Buffy S7 anyway). Think it was uneeded. They could have found another way to do the whole test of Angel character. In fact they do, sevenral times. There, proof it wasn't needed:D

Even if you disregard the fact that it sets Angel on his path and forces him to decide that he has to commit fully to his mission as a champion and sets up the theme of the show that the fight will never stop, this episode also gives Buffy the thing she will never get: a happy ending. And that was important because Buffy deserved it but it couldn't ever happen. So the show managed to give it her without actually giving it to her. I think that's pretty brilliant. I think both of those reasons are pretty sufficient to make this episode needed.
It was well done yes, but it feels like setpiece. Granted if you are going to have a mind swipe reveal I guess this is the most impressive way to do it. But that doesn't change that to me the mind swipe payoff is a bit cheap.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,335
Location
Germany
Fuffy Baith: I like this theory, makes sense
The sequence of events just always seemed fishy to me. And I remember a couple of years ago on a podcast that dealt with this episode they mentioned Tim Minear being on a podcast where he talked about IWRY. He said that originally this episode was about Angel being tested but they couldn't really fit all that into one episode and do Bangel as well. So they decided to focus on the emotion instead. Whether that's true or not I don't know because I've never listened to that podcast with Minaer. However I took that as confirmation that I wasn't completely nuts for thinking what I did about this episode.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
248
Age
33
Location
Germany
Okay, a few points was already good explained and I'm not sure what to add. When I first watch it few years back I had tears in my eyes - and thas should mean something. Because I do not ship Bangel but that episode is sad.
 
Top Bottom