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Discussion of 1.18 "Five By Five" - Aired 4/25/2000 (WB-US)

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
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Sineya
I will never understand why the Brits gave this episode a rating of 18 yet the Spuffy scenes all got a 15 rating from them…

This episode makes me want to get in the TV and give Faith a big hug (taking into consideration that she might feel uncomfortable).
Also known as the episode in which my hatred for W&H begins :p


They are very alike and I could see them fighting well together.
It's a shame that Faith never joined Angel Investigations, she would've fit right in :(
 
Charmander
Charmander
Clearly they rating people are big Spuffy fans. :P

Vigeous

I've been thinking about the world...
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This episode was so intense! The fight scene at the end was insane. Eliza did such an amazing job in the fight scene. You could really feel everything she had bottled up come out in the way they choreographed the fight and the way she broke down in the final moments of the episode. It felt very real.

Interesting turn for Wesley in this one. We see him get to the point where he's willing to kill Faith when he shows up outside with a knife.

I have to watch the next episode asap!
 

Mr Trick

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Did you have fluffy puppy feelings for them before? ;)

I think this was the episode when my love for Lilah began. Evil, yes, but deliciously so.
Oh really? I thought her introduction in The Ring was maybe the best character debut on Angel. Its just a shame that the rest of the episode couldn't match it;)

This episode was so intense! The fight scene at the end was insane. Eliza did such an amazing job in the fight scene. You could really feel everything she had bottled up come out in the way they choreographed the fight and the way she broke down in the final moments of the episode. It felt very real.

Interesting turn for Wesley in this one. We see him get to the point where he's willing to kill Faith when he shows up outside with a knife.

I have to watch the next episode asap!
Spot-on. The direction and acting in this episode from everyone is really top notch. Along with Sanctuary it takes the show to a whole new and exciting level. The fight sequence is a beautiful moment of poetic storytelling.
 

Monkey Pants

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Black Thorn
This is one of my very favorite episodes. It may be my favorite Angel episode ever. Or at least it's the one it hurts the most to think of not having if I think of ATS never existing.
This episode is just amazing and adds another level to Faith's character. As much as I love Faith in season 3, it makes me realize how much we would have missed out on if Faith had died when Buffy stabbed or remained in a coma forever or even had run off after Who Are You? and never been seen again.
Everyone's performances are top notch and amazing.
I love Faith and Lilah's scenes. I heard the actresses had to be told to turn it down because they were originally quite steamy. I even heard that they had additional scenes together that had to be cut. Does anyone know if that's true?
 

GwenRaiden

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Black Thorn
I heard the actresses had to be told to turn it down because they were originally quite steamy. I even heard that they had additional scenes together that had to be cut. Does anyone know if that's true?
I would love to see those original and additional scenes!
 

Mr Trick

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This is one of my very favorite episodes. It may be my favorite Angel episode ever. Or at least it's the one it hurts the most to think of not having if I think of ATS never existing.
This episode is just amazing and adds another level to Faith's character. As much as I love Faith in season 3, it makes me realize how much we would have missed out on if Faith had died when Buffy stabbed or remained in a coma forever or even had run off after Who Are You? and never been seen again.
Everyone's performances are top notch and amazing.
I love Faith and Lilah's scenes. I heard the actresses had to be told to turn it down because they were originally quite steamy. I even heard that they had additional scenes together that had to be cut. Does anyone know if that's true?


Wait what?!:D Why would they be steamy? I don't remember any scenes between the two which would make sense having that featured:eek: Still at least Lilah is a bit closer to Faith's age than a certain other character was;)

This was a turning point in the show. I'm not as high on the first season as some people but this one's just about perfect and it marked the start of Angel as a show coming into its own.
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
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Sineya
Those are ugly demons :p

Angel chopped his head off :eek:

Faith is here :)

I'm surprised Faith wasn't a smoker at this point...

I think Faith was actually cold, but she takes the opportunity to beat that guy up and take his stuff...

A flashback :)

Poor gypsy :(

Liam, no :mad:

Cordy...

Cordy's right, you can't change people...

Faith is at the club, grinding on other girl's boyfriends, they don't have the girl's name on them anywhere :p

Of course Angel's a liability to evil W&H :p

W&H are sneaky, and they know about Faith...

Lilah is a bitch.

Cordy and Anya have something in common, they both love money :p

Faith is hitting on Lilah :D

W&H, don't...

Faith, it's obviously you like black :p

Another flashback :)

Children=little pigs ??? o_O

He feels bad for killing the children...

The Gypsy's gave Liam a soul :eek:

Darla leaves Angel because of his soul :rolleyes:

W&H, don't make it worse...

Faith... :mad:

Faith :eek:

Wes, Giles was too busy to contact you.

Wes, it's your fault that Faith is evil...

Don't shoot him :rolleyes:

Faith, it won't work...

Angel, he found you out :p

Lindsey, Angel could ask you the same thing...

Hi-def existed before 9/11 ??? o_O

Dennis=jelaous :p

How did Faith get in here ???

Oww!!!

Another flashback :)

Evil Faith is an animal...

Poor Wes :(

Faith, don't hurt him...

Faith, please stop...:mad:

Faith, Wes thinks you are a peice of shit :(

Poor Faith :( (I hate her here yet I feel so bad for her at the same time...).

Stay strong, Wes :)

Yet another flashback :)

Angel is only worth 15,000$ ???o_O

Faith looks more worn out than young...

Faith, stop hitting and headbutting Angel :(

Wes, don't do it...

Faith is realizing things and wants to die :(

Next time: Buffy visits and Faith turns herself in...
 

Antho

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What a pleasure to see Faith in the series. I enjoyed every second I spent with her. Since "Who are you" Faith has become aware of what she has become and what she has seen displeases her strongly. She hates herself ! She has always been a bit extreme in her attitudes, but I do not know how to say it, but here she is even more insane, she overplayed, she wants to attract attention, she deliberately takes risks. Yet she always had this rebellious side in her but there I find it too excessive. At first, her actions give the impression that she embraces even more her darkness as if she wanted to convince that to do the evil was her new conviction, her reason for living but, in the end, we know that her actions were a desperate call for help !

The episode glorifies this character by presenting her on several aspects :
-Faith the lost sulphurous,
-Faith the provocative,
-Faith the psychopath,
-Faith the suicidal,
She is everywhere, she is the star and I fully appreciate the work of Eliza Dushku. The emotional states are very well transcribed by the actress :

-Faith, lost and sulphurous : When she arrives at L.A, we find a lost Faith and terribly intriguing at the same time. It feels there is something wrong with her, even more so than usual. She arrives in the night, in the shadows, and even when she appears under the light, her physical appearance and her charm reveal a darkness that has a certain appeal. I find that her make-up, the clothes she wears, her look, her pace, for me it brings out a lot of obscurity and not much light, not much joy.
She is new, a stranger in this town, almost inexpressive even if I detected a little aspect of a lost girl that makes her fragile, fragility that is also counterbalanced by the violence that ensues.

-Faith the provocative : I really like the moment in the nightclub, atmosphere is overflowing with conflicting emotions. Faith shows herself very seductive, she seeks trouble, she is in provocation, she starts a brawl and at the same time, in parallel of all the violence, there is a lot of sensuality, manifesting that she takes pleasure. Sometime the music even takes over the sound of the blows and Faith finds herself to be in the center of the dance floor and she continues to dance like nothing. For me it is representative of her inner discomfort, as of she remained deaf and visually impaired in front of the spectacle of violence she engenders around her. Even the meetings with Wolfram and Hart's lawyers (I noticed that the initials are the same for everyone : Lilah Morgan, Lindsay McDonald and Lee Mercer) the negotiations are in one-way, and she does not hesitate to hit Lee, the only one who dared to contradict her. She affirms herself, she faces the people who are in front of her and she isn't intimidated. She acts by not being afraid of the consequences, and I'm sure, she even hopes consequences !



- Faith the psychopath : When she tortures Wesley, this is where we are the most witness to her cruelty. The choice of Wesley as a victim is not insignificant, although she certainly wanted settle her business with him, she mostly wanted to force Angel to play her game. It was in these moments that I realized she was more extreme than usual. She can blame what she wants to Wesley, it's true, at the time of Sunnydale he wasn't an competent and understandable watcher. When she has killed this guy she needed to being helped, and Wesley had a reaction which was the right for him but the wrong for Faith. However I think that the greater part of responsibilities belongs to Faith. Part of me thinks everyone is responsible for what he/she becomes. For Faith, I think that taking the path of evil was an obligation, a fatality, I have the impression that she had to experience it in life in order to move forward in some way. Wesley, I have a lot of pain for him, he suffers a lot and I admired him at the beginning when he wanted to help Faith despite the mistakes of the past. He recognized his mistakes and was ready to give her a new chance, he was hopeful and convinced that everyone is entitled to a second chance. Somewhere, he also searches redemption. We can say that Faith radically changes his vision of things, he grabs the knife and wished to finish with her. I very much like the last scene where we see Wesley let go the knife as all the desire to get his revenge had suddenly deserted his body and his thoughts.



-Faith the suicidal :
The fight against Angel was really well choreographed, so BADASS! I love this fight, one of my favorites of both series. Faith is unleashed like never before and Angel takes a lot. And frankly, I do not know if he lets himself be beaten or if he really fights with all his will, but in any case he understood the game of Faith and he doesn't play the game. Faith didn't want to kill him, if she had wanted to, I think she could have, but she wanted HE kills her. In fact, since "Who Are You" she has developed a desire of death because she can no longer bear herself and all the actions she has undertaken in this episode resulted from that because every time she acted abusively and with the desire to assume the consequences. When she collapses in tears in Angel's arms, I must say that I was taken by emotion, she is so touching, she shows a lot of vulnerability. She bursts her shell and leaves someone being close to her. The Lost and Bad Girl falls the mask and reveals a tearful, self-destructive girl who searches death! I think she cracked at the right time and in front of the right person. At the point where Faith is, redemption seems to be clearly the way she must take and Angel is clearly the ideal person to accompany her along this long road. Oh and then super important detail : the rain during the fight, I love, it brings a dramatic side which amplifies emotions !





The flashbacks are here clearly present to do the link between Faith and Angel. The paths are similar and it is perfectly normal and understandable that Angel would like to help her, he knows what she is enduring. I would add that seeing Julie Benz is always a pleasure. Two relationships that fit perfectly :
- At the beginning, Liam and Faith were both normal people, with a lot of humanity in them. Following the misfortunes of life, they each yielded and sank.
- All of them are unable to see the anxiety and love they had from family/friends : Liam never understood that his father truly loved him and that all these criticisms were said in the one and only hope of pushing him to do his best. Faith always compared herself to Buffy, she was convinced she did not have the life she deserved and so she did not receive the love or gratitude she needed. This jealousy of Buffy has consumed her and it is one of the factors that pushed her on evil side. She was so jealous of what Buffy had, then she did not realize what she had.
- Unable to correspond to the model imposed on them, they sought approval elsewhere : Angel with Darla and Faith with Mayor Wilkins.
-Each one had a moment of revelation, an experience that opened their eyes and allowed them to realize what they become : Restoration of the soul for Angel and the exchange of bodies with Buffy for Faith.
- After that both persist, at first, to act as if nothing happen, continued to embrace their monstruosity : Angel trying to kill this Romanian woman and Faith playing with fire by challenging Angel in the the only objective to force him to put end to her life. They have failed and it is from that moment that redemption begins for them !
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
Great analysis!
thetopher
thetopher
Fantastic review! :)

Benz

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I love how Cordelia show that she still hold love and loyalty for scobby gang as she asked out of concern is Buffy alright and stand up for Giles after Wesley was moaning about Giles not telling him Faith woken up form coma.
 

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
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Black Thorn
The scene where Faith tortures Wesley is the reason Angel is still rated 18 in the UK. It's odd to think the spinoff to Buffy is rated for adults only.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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Sineya
The scene where Faith tortures Wesley is the reason Angel is still rated 18 in the UK. It's odd to think the spinoff to Buffy is rated for adults only.
That scene is so tame though. You don't see her torturing him, only her taunting him. There's blood on him but nothing special. What do the Brits rate actual violence as?
 

Bluebird

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Black Thorn
That scene is so tame though. You don't see her torturing him, only her taunting him. There's blood on him but nothing special. What do the Brits rate actual violence as?
It seems a bit of a harsh rating but I can understand it somewhat. Implied violence can be given a higher rating in the UK, than actual gore or whatnot. I think it is a dark scene in its implications, but more so in how it portrays Faith's mental collapse.

It's also to do with when the DVD was released. The BBFC have reclassified some movies and DVDs on re-release but I'm not sure what the deal is with Angel. I think times have changed and it would be rated 15 nowadays, especially compared to shows like Game of Thrones.
 

Athene

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Sineya
That scene is so tame though. You don't see her torturing him, only her taunting him. There's blood on him but nothing special. What do the Brits rate actual violence as?
Maybe it's because Faith kind of describes what she's going to do with the glass? They probably had to rate it an 18 because even though the scene isn't graphic at all, it's technically still a torture scene.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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Sineya
Maybe it's because Faith kind of describes what she's going to do with the glass? They probably had to rate it an 18 because even though the scene isn't graphic at all, it's technically still a torture scene.
I guess? But I really don't think it warrants that kind of rating. I'd say PG 13 is enough. At that age, that scene would've done nothing for me. I'd already watched Inglourious Basterds by then (the misspelling in on purpose!), which is much worse. I don't think 13 year olds would've been shocked or influenced. They are used to senseless violence, and Faith's torture is clearly seen as amoral and something she regrets and apologizes for anyway...
 

Athene

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I guess? But I really don't think it warrants that kind of rating. I'd say PG 13 is enough. At that age, that scene would've done nothing for me. I'd already watched Inglourious Basterds by then (the misspelling in on purpose!), which is much worse. I don't think 13 year olds would've been shocked or influenced. They are used to senseless violence, and Faith's torture is clearly seen as amoral and something she regrets and apologizes for anyway...
I agree there's nothing in the torture scene that even makes me want to look away, I think it's portrayed in a very PG 13 way. I was about 12 when I first saw the torture scene and I wasn't disturbed by it at all, I think Faith's messed up state phased me more.
 

AnthonyCordova

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Sineya
To me, this is a paradigm example of a flawless Angel episode. I wouldn't change anything about it.
 
I have to admit also that the first time I saw this, I was terrified for Wes. I couldn't guess how much he would be brutalized and he had already become my favorite actor and character on the show.
 

Sharky

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Watching this just now, I didn't get the feeling that she wanted Angel to kill her when she took the job, but as things progressed, perhaps she did, or perhaps she realized even in their last fight that that is what she wanted.

Does everyone think she wanted him to kill her the whole time?

- Tim
This is a good question. Personally I believe so.

The biggest example is Faith's obsession this episode with making sure Angel WANTS to kill her. If she only cared about getting revenge and the $$$, why would this be a concern with her? She clearly wants it to be a fight to the death, wants to put herself in mortal danger.. This is the only reason she goes after Cordy and Wes - two people who have absolutely no relevance to her job at hand. IMO Her heightened interest once Wolfham mentions that "Angel" is her target isn't about getting payback, it's because she knows Angel poses a realistic threat to her.

That being said, I don't believe Faith herself realized it until her final fight with Angel in this episode. Her yearning to be killed was buried very deep down, but it was always there and there are definitely hints towards it. I wouldn't label her suicidal even, but she was self-loathing to a point of being fatally self-destructive. I always had the perception of Faith that she made herself believe that her only path in life was being self serving and evil and if she couldn't be that, there was no place for her in the world. We see her have moments of self reflection and doubt when torturing Wes, especially when she's sitting at the window and drops the bloodied piece of glass...
I imagine what goes through her head here is "Angel is definitely going to kill me after this..." but feeling very calmed and satisfied at the thought. Like she's about to achieve closure.

Once it's clear Angel continues to refuse to kill her, Faith has a meltdown realizing everything she's done is still for naught, and begins pleading for death.


Imo this is one of the best episodes of season 1 and when Faith as a character really grows on me. Love it
 
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