Out for a walk
5 Words Or Less...
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2017
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- 206
Fantastic episode. The first season needed more of this. Too bad Faith couldn’t have been a regular character on Angel.
While I don't wish Faith would have been a regular, I do wish she would've had more appearances. This episode is great for me because it break Faith down more than any other episode so far. We've seen her have some not so awesome relationships with the scoobies, finding a father figure in the mayor and starting off on her own, but in this we see her really break down. She starts off as careless, dancing, only worried about having fun and being on her own. Then she gets to confront parts of her past and she by the end she just collapses. I think one of the best details in the "I'm bad, Kill me" scene, is that there is no music, no background except for rain and her crying.Fantastic episode. The first season needed more of this. Too bad Faith couldn’t have been a regular character on Angel.
In general, whilst having villains somehow connected to the hero is a great storytelling device, it should also be used in moderation. When every villain is connected to one of the heroes in some way, not only does it become eye rollingly unoriginal, it also breaks the suspension of disbelief. I think Buffy and Angel got the mixture right because other than the Whirlwind and Faith, none of the other "big" villains have any personal connection to Angel and Buffy. On OUAT, it's a completely different story where all but one villain (who was part of a trio) have connections to at least one of the main group of heroes. There's a few Buffy connections in OUAT such as some cast members, some writers, same producer, plus a scene that blatantly rips off the Bangel Becoming scene. It's a fairly decent show, though it does get annoying at times storywise and characterwise. There's currently a re-watch going on if you're interested?And I just couldn't overstate enough how much I love antagonists whom the hero has a personal stake against, someone who knows the things that would hurt the protagonist the most. It's an old storytelling tool, and it's worked effectively for a long time.
Agreed. I found it annoying when it's used that way in Marc Webb's "Amazing Spider-Man" universe, where Peter Parker, instead of being the Average Joe we've known and love, became this special Chosen One whom every single villain was tied to.In general, whilst having villains somehow connected to the hero is a great storytelling device, it should also be used in moderation.
Erm, I think I'll pass. 😆 No offense, but I'm just busy enough as it is, not having sufficient time to watch the shows I haven't seen, let alone rewatching shows I have. And yes, I have seen OUAT up 'till season six. It was a decent show for what it was, though I only watched it because of my fascination with fairy tales (plus, Ginnifer Goodwin was SO beautiful in her perfect casting as the innocent Snow White). I've enjoyed myself though in spite of my problems with the later seasons (the Frozen one in particular). It was a nice modern take on fairy tales, even if I wish someone would just make a horror show based on the darker variations of the original fairy tales.On OUAT, it's a completely different story where all but one villain (who was part of a trio) have connections to at least one of the main group of heroes. There's a few Buffy connections in OUAT such as some cast members, some writers, same producer, plus a scene that blatantly rips off the Bangel Becoming scene. It's a fairly decent show, though it does get annoying at times storywise and characterwise. There's currently a re-watch going on if you're interested?
such as the likes of Netflix's Jessica Jones, season 1, where the titular heroine has a very deep-rooted agenda against the Big Bad of the season, The Purple Man, the man who mind-controlled her to do his bidding. All I'm saying is that the story and drama can be more fun and engrossing when it's done well like that.
I was counting Angelus within the Whirlwind. You had Spike and Dru connected to Angel, then you had Angelus connected to Buffy. On Angel, you had Darla and Dru connected to Angel, then you also had Faith. I suppose you could count Penn as well alongside James and Elizabeth, but they're more "here's some characters from Angel's past that we've not seen or heard about before this episode and won't hear about again afterwards"On a side note, Buffy technically does have one other Big Bad with personal connection to her: Angelus in season 2, though admittedly, he only became a 'bad' mid-season.
Season 4 is the last season before the start of what I call the "Dawnverse" so I consider it to be the last of the original canon. Certainly it's no Season 2, but I prefer it to Seasons 5-7. I dislike the notion that life turns to crap when you become an adult which seems to be the theme that is pushed from Season 5 onwards.It's one reason why season 4 felt so dull for me in spite of all its funny episodes.
No offense taken.Erm, I think I'll pass. 😆 No offense, but I'm just busy enough as it is, not having sufficient time to watch the shows I haven't seen, let alone rewatching shows I have. And yes, I have seen OUAT up 'till season six. It was a decent show for what it was, though I only watched it because of my fascination with fairy tales (plus, Ginnifer Goodwin was SO beautiful in her perfect casting as the innocent Snow White). I've enjoyed myself though in spite of my problems with the later seasons (the Frozen one in particular). It was a nice modern take on fairy tales, even if I wish someone would just make a horror show based on the darker variations of the original fairy tales.
*looks up "The Whirlwind*I was counting Angelus within the Whirlwind.
I don't know. Adulthood is pretty crappy for myself compared to my childhood. 😆 I also have an attraction to stories with angst, so if Buffy focuses on "life turning to crap" even more from season 5 onward, it might actually be something I would like. On the other hand, too much of that angst (without believable reasoning) can become melodrama, which is something I don't enjoy. Guess I'll have to wait and see.Season 4 is the last season before the start of what I call the "Dawnverse" so I consider it to be the last of the original canon. Certainly it's no Season 2, but I prefer it to Seasons 5-7. I dislike the notion that life turns to crap when you become an adult which seems to be the theme that is pushed from Season 5 onwards.
Yeah, I feel like they did Snow dirty in the show. She was such a refreshing take on Snow White at the beginning, smart and independent rather than "waiting for her prince to come" like Disney's animated version. She, along with much of the early seasons of OUAT, actually felt like they were basing off of the darker and more grounded vibe from the original Brothers Grimm's fairy tales, but by the time Frozen came along, it felt like there was this bubbly naivete present that made me grow out of Disney movies to begin with.I dislike what they did with Snow's character in Season 3 onwards. They made her stupider (even Dopey could've guessed Zelena was the Wicked Witch everyone was looking for since she just randomly inserted herself into Snow's life) but also her clothes became a lot frumpier. In the earlier seasons her clothes were conservative but cute, but post-baby, they were just frumpy.
OUCH! Brutal! 🤣 I don't really care much for her either, running off with the first man she did a musical number with in the movie. I also didn't care much for the movie either to be honest. I wish Elsa was instead a sympathetic villain in that movie, maybe as the only pragmatic character whose head isn't stuck in some Disney La La Land. Yeah, I have issues with Disney. 🤣I only liked her in the scene where she nearly drowned.
That sounds like an interesting development, but half the reason why I stuck around for so long was the charisma of the original cast members, especially Ginnifer Goodwin and Jennifer Morrison, which is why I really didn't feel like picking up season 7 where they're gone. I loved the Dark Swan arc (even though I felt it was kinda squandered), and Jennifer's performance was a big reason why I kept watching.In Season 7 a grown up Hansel is a serial killer. There's elements in Season 7 that are darker than the the first 6 seasons but it certainly doesn't delve into horror show territory (though in my opinion the Season 6 episode with the giant spider was kind of veering into that territory).
They kind of started messing with the whole premise of the show when they killed off Baelfire (Rumple's entire reason for the cark curse) and then started adding other realm jumping devices and then it became all about the macguffins and deux ex machina.Yeah, I feel like they did Snow dirty in the show. She was such a refreshing take on Snow White at the beginning, smart and independent rather than "waiting for her prince to come" like Disney's animated version. She, along with much of the early seasons of OUAT, actually felt like they were basing off of the darker and more grounded vibe from the original Brothers Grimm's fairy tales, but by the time Frozen came along, it felt like there was this bubbly naivete present that made me grow out of Disney movies to begin with.
I think they focussed too heavily on the Snow White story in Season 1 and 2 that they didn't have anywhere really to go beyond that so they began inserting incessant Regina vs Snow flashbacks and you knew they weren't going to kill each other so it got very repetitive. The Medusa Snowing flashback in Season 3 was complete filler and a waste of time, they could've used that episode for a Felix flashback, especially since he died in the next episode. Neverland had so many wasted opportunities. They could've used all the Season's flashbacks on the Neverland characters and Baelfire's time there such as how did he escape the island the first time? Even Hook, who was featured to heavily in other seasons, was ironically underused during the Neverland arc despite it being the story he originated from. I did like Pan and Felix's genuine friendship, there's always something about villain relationships, be they romantic or platonic, that are just so much more interesting than the heroes' relationships. It's one of the reasons I like Sprusilla so much in the Buffyverse.Also, I don't think they just made her stupider - she was practically a wallflower by season 3. There wasn't much for her character to do other than being Emma's mother (until she became interesting again for the first time as the Evil Queen for one episode).
Her pregnancy was written into the show in the back half of Season 3 though her second one wasn't, but it was Snow's attitude as well. She became unlikeable.I think in terms of her clothing, it was something out of the producers' hands, seeing as Ginnifer had a baby coming. It's just one of those behind-the-scenes circumstance that I don't mind because real life happens. *shrug*
I didn't really like Emma in Season 6 especially when she basically forced Hook to propose because she'd been rummaging through his things. I wasn't a big fan of Hook but he grew on me in Season 6 and he could do a lot better than Emma. Again, Emma's fashion sense also took a nosedive and she looked constantly miserable and ill.That sounds like an interesting development, but half the reason why I stuck around for so long was the charisma of the original cast members, especially Ginnifer Goodwin and Jennifer Morrison, which is why I really didn't feel like picking up season 7 where they're gone. I loved the Dark Swan arc (even though I felt it was kinda squandered), and Jennifer's performance was a big reason why I kept watching.
Not to mention the annoying mind-wipe they did on her. It was a contrived way to take away Rumple's one source of happiness in order to make him evil again. It's unearned character development, unlike the way Angel was slowly built up to become Angelus again. It's this kind of half-ass writing that irks me about OUAT. In fact, a lot of development in OUAT happened just as spontaneously just for the sake of creating drama (as opposed to creating character development that's realistic and makes sense).Belle was constantly screwed over by the show. Her role literally consisted of being absent for several episodes at a time, walking out on Rumple, reuniting with Rumple, or being the one to info dump and exposition.
I feel like Hook's character arc was one of the character writing that I really enjoyed about the show because he has this viciousness that reminds me of just how mature the writing can be. Like his whole shtick is to swear vengeance against the guy who killed his beloved, something you wouldn't think of coming from Disney's campier Hook. And as someone who's fascinated by how twisted the original Peter Pan really was (belonging to a time and age when female sexuality wasn't as respected as it is today), I like the idea of Evil Pan, especially with how far they were willing to push his character (killing a child to extend his immortality). And I like that they deconstructed Peter's desire to stay as a kid forever, something that was played around with in a more innocent manner in the animated Disney film.Neverland had so many wasted opportunities. They could've used all the Season's flashbacks on the Neverland characters and Baelfire's time there such as how did he escape the island the first time? Even Hook, who was featured to heavily in other seasons, was ironically underused during the Neverland arc despite it being the story he originated from.
I had major problems with Regina's writing when I was watching the show. It had nothing to do with her being a psychotic murderer, but rather, the fact that I was expected to believe she had somehow grew a heart just because she had a son (who's not even her blood)? It just felt kinda silly, this vain Evil Queen just suddenly changing her spots, and everyone including Henry forgiving her down the road in spite of all the lives she's taken. It felt like the kind of childish logic that is better suited for a dumb Disney cartoon, not a live action drama. I don't mind a villain being evil, just as long as the good guys remember her transgressions (like the Scoobies being wary around the murderous Spike). The fact that no legal punishments were carried out for her past murders also didn't sit well with me. In Singapore, she would've long gotten the death penalty. Faith accidentally killed one person and the cops were already hunting her down.I also found Robin annoying with his simpering over Regina, then it turns out she killed Marian and yet Robin doesn't seem to care. Also he was immediately attracted to her even though as far as he knew she was still the evil queen etc.
I think what sold it for me was the tragedy element of it. How Emma ended up giving up her Dark One powers was the only part of the arc that was unsatisfying for me, but Emma becoming the Dark One out of her love for Hook and forced to make the impossible decision of letting him die was just so tearjerking. It was a lose-lose situation and there was no way for Emma to win.The Dark Swan arc was a bit of a let down for me. How they set it up at the end of Season 4 is not what it turned out to be. The concept was interesting, the execution not so much.
I might give it a chance someday, but season 7 probably won't be high in my backlog.The actor who played adult Hansel was very good, he could elicit sympathy for the character and for why the character was behaving as he was, even though his actions ultimately made him a "villain".
Rumple was constantly redeemed and villainised to suit the plot. Killing Baelfire was a massive disservice to Rumple's character since reuniting with his son had always been Rumple's primary motivation for everything he did.Not to mention the annoying mind-wipe they did on her. It was a contrived way to take away Rumple's one source of happiness in order to make him evil again. It's unearned character development, unlike the way Angel was slowly built up to become Angelus again. It's this kind of half-ass writing that irks me about OUAT. In fact, a lot of development in OUAT happened just as spontaneously just for the sake of creating drama (as opposed to creating character development that's realistic and makes sense).
I've seen the 2003 film. OUAT Pan was great but I could've done without the familial relation to Rumple. That's one thing Buffy and Angel got right where the villains weren't all related the the main group of characters. That also allowed them to be more of a threat without the heroes wanting to save them.I feel like Hook's character arc was one of the character writing that I really enjoyed about the show because he has this viciousness that reminds me of just how mature the writing can be. Like his whole shtick is to swear vengeance against the guy who killed his beloved, something you wouldn't think of coming from Disney's campier Hook. And as someone who's fascinated by how twisted the original Peter Pan really was (belonging to a time and age when female sexuality wasn't as respected as it is today), I like the idea of Evil Pan, especially with how far they were willing to push his character (killing a child to extend his immortality). And I like that they deconstructed Peter's desire to stay as a kid forever, something that was played around with in a more innocent manner in the animated Disney film.
If you like OUAT's take on Peter Pan as much as me, you should check out the underrated 2003 adaptation of the book.
I can buy Regina loving Henry since she spent 17 years cursed before she got him then raised him, but Henry's treatment of Regina in Season 2 was awful. I hated how he'd dangle a carrot of affection then next moment he takes it away. He needed to choose one side or the other. What I did dislike in the writing of Regina and Zelena from Season 3 onwards is how their victims were then made out to be the bad guys for wanting revenge.I had major problems with Regina's writing when I was watching the show. It had nothing to do with her being a psychotic murderer, but rather, the fact that I was expected to believe she had somehow grew a heart just because she had a son (who's not even her blood)? It just felt kinda silly, this vain Evil Queen just suddenly changing her spots, and everyone including Henry forgiving her down the road in spite of all the lives she's taken. It felt like the kind of childish logic that is better suited for a dumb Disney cartoon, not a live action drama. I don't mind a villain being evil, just as long as the good guys remember her transgressions (like the Scoobies being wary around the murderous Spike). The fact that no legal punishments were carried out for her past murders also didn't sit well with me. In Singapore, she would've long gotten the death penalty. Faith accidentally killed one person and the cops were already hunting her down.
Regina is a bit like Spike in some regards. Great when evil, fun when morally grey, but the moment the writers try to turn them good, they lose that something that made them so fun to begin with. At least Spike stopped at attempted rape though, Regina didn't. A common flaw between Buffy and OUAT is that it doesn't acknowledge the female on male rape that occurs. They're two shows that are more or less a decade apart yet they seem to have the same problem.But putting aside the details surrounding her murderer status, I actually liked Regina as a no-nonsense Queen Bitch. At the best of times, she can be a more satisfying character to watch than Emma, having the kind of teeth and ruthlessness the rest of the good guys did not when it comes to saving the day. Lana Parrilla had such fun playing evil and I really loved her performance as well, maybe even more than Rebecca Mader's sympathetic Zelena. I feel like, as lackluster as season 6 was, the return of the Evil Queen and Lana stealing every scene made it quite a worthwhile watch. I was glad to have sat through 'till the end of that season at least.