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Discussion of 3.01 "Hearthrob" - Aired 9/24/2001 (WB-US)

Flannen

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On a routine patrol, Angel stakes a female vampire. Just before she crumbles to dust she calls him Angelus and he recognizes her from his soulless past. Now, her grief-stricken lover, Angel's old hunting companion, is out for revenge for both the present killing and for a betrayal Angelus committed over 200 years ago.
Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

xfivebyfive

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Black Thorn
This is one of my favorite episodes. I love this one so much. I know it isn't really all that special but its a cute episode and fun to watch. Its one I rewatch a lot if I just feel like watching a random episode. I love all the adorable Cordy/angel scenes in it :D
 

VisionGirl

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I wouldn't say this is my favorite episode, but I I like it. I do really, really like how they addressed Buffy's death. Not just that they addressed it, but the way they did, it really shows Angel's growth. I love the parallels between Buffy/angel and James/Elizabeth.

The concept that removing a vampire's heart makes him invulnerable (albeit for a short time) is reused in one of the Tales of the Vampires comics, "Some Like it Hot".
 
C
caritas08
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Taake

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Black Thorn
I wouldn't say this is my favorite episode, but I I like it. I do really, really like how they addressed Buffy's death. Not just that they addressed it, but the way they did, it really shows Angel's growth. I love the parallels between Buffy/angel and James/Elizabeth.
Completely agreed.


Also this is one of my favorite Cordy eps. I think she's great in it and more superficially I'm gonna add that I love Charisma's look her, + her wardrobe.
 
C
caritas08
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PassionBecoming

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Sineya
Alright, my first watch of S3 begins!

-Interesting that the first character we see is Fred. I'm thinking this season will have a lot to do with her.
-Angel left? Something to do with Buffy dying perhaps?
-Cordy misses Pylea. Heehee.
-Demon monks. Huh. Well, Angel probably needed a good fight at that point. I always wonder what he thought at the moment he found out Buffy was dead. He had to be pretty devastated. :(
-"And look how it brings out my breasts! You know you were all thinking it." HAHAHA. Cordy's loving working among the men!
-How did Angel know the vamps were heading east on 6th street? Hmmm...
-That boy in the car is kind of a d-bag...
-Aw, I love seeing Phantom Dennis! Well, not seeing him...
-Always love a good Angelus cameo.
-Wow, didn't take that vamp long to go up in flames in the sun. Spike and Angel never did...
-Angel isn't so much up for talking about Buffy. Darn it.
-"Am I a bad bloke? I don't think so. Not once you get to know me." Oh, Angelus, you're so funny.
-I love all the old people/demons in Caritas! So cute!
-I do not like Wesley's hair. At all.
-"In all those years, no one ever mattered. Not like she did." Ok, I feel better now.
-Uhhh...Darla's...huh???
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
Agree with everything except Wesley's hair,i love it.

Jules

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I feel so sorry for Fred, she finally comes out of her room only to get scared back into it :( I love that Wes and Gunn's informant is Merl!! The flashbacks were great, how Angelus looks so bored when their cornered as if he's seen everything now and could care less. It brings an interesting question to light; Darla and Angelus make no secret of the fact that they dont love each other, their evil and enjoy the excitment of being with each other. Yet both James and Elizabeth and Dru and Spike feel some kind of emotion that resembles love. Did they just get different demons in them that are capable of that feeling or were Darla and Angelus' demons just top of the range evil demons?

The Bangel in this episode is so amazing!! I love how they arent just showing Angel being over Buffy's death. The best quote of the episode for me is:
James: "Lucky me. Now I can kill the woman you love."
Angel: "No, you can't."
James: "Are you forgetting who's the invincible one here?"
Angel: "The woman I love - is dead."

I also liked his final speech at the end about how he thought he was betraying her!

Poor Cordy, those visions are really taking there tole on her. I like that Cordy see's through Angel's act of ''everything is ok'', unlike Gunn and Wes, but I still just see that as them having a close sibling relationship, not the beginnings of a romantic relationship.
 

AnthonyCordova

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Sineya
I liked how Angel had said that he was in love (as opposed to the past tense, loved) yet at the same time when talking with Cordelia he was getting over it. He always still loves her, but at the same time he was capable of moving on in life post-Buffy (so he thinks.) That's how those types of things should resolve themselves.
 

thetopher

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Really solid ep, I like how Angel is bothered byt the fact that he's getting over Buffy's death. And Cordelia's right, He's honouring Buffy's memory, not diminishing it.

I immediatly got that they were gonna set up Cordelia as the next love interest for Angel, (after getting over Buffy and red herring Kate in S1, and Darla- sort of- in S2) their interactions here signposts it very clearly, and at this point I didn't really have a problem with it.

I like the idea of a mystical operation that makes the vampire invulnerable for a very short time before they die. Seems like it should've come up more often. I mean, we've seen vampire fanatics, right?
Would've liked to see Buffy take on a couple of them, would've been interesting. :)

Why is it that pretty much every first episode of every season of Angel is great and the Buffy ones are so hit and miss.
I really like 'City Of...' 'Judgement' (Faith cameo. :)), This one, 'Deep Down' and 'Conviction', they really set up the oncoming seasons well.
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
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thrasherpix

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Many episodes tend to have an overriding theme. In this case, it's about moving on, with a focus on Angel and Fred (separately), plus James, but it's something all the characters seem to be struggling with (and Holtz is first shown, who CAN'T move on, and Angelus cruelly mocks him for his losses of wife and children). And as Fred hides in her room, Cordelia tries to hide from the growing agony of her visions. (I also get the impression that Cordy losing her coat in the tunnels meant something, but I don't know what.)

And as a small item, not sure why it struck me this time, when Angel is trying to coax Fred out of her room, he pushes her glasses more into place, which I see as affectionate (not meaning to imply romantic interest, more as protective and concerned big brother), and contrasts to when Angelus (in the Buffy ep Becoming, end of season 2) pushed Gile's glasses into place while he was torturing him, also asking him how he's holding up. I'm not sure to what to make of it, but it does seem to be an example of how the demon is a twisted reflection of the mortal it was (Angel is showing concern, Angelus is mocking a victim).

Interesting enough, another subtle point is that the vampire Elizabeth who tests the love of a hostage (him or his girlfriend) was shown in a flashback as shocked (along with James) that Darla once hit Angelus over the head with a shovel, leaving him in a barn (but wished him luck). Angelus & Darla smile to each other that's both creepy and loving (so demonic) over the memory of the betrayal, and of the unspeakable things Angelus did to her as punishment "again, and again." Angelus asks them, "Can you even imagine? Of course not, you're in love." :eek:

(I'm not sure if it means anything, Angelus says life is boring while Darla is full of surprises, but at the end Darla says it's life that's full of surprises.)


But perhaps the most significant is that the series also has a big dark mirror thing going on...Angel who wasn't there when Buffy died, unable to save her, and the same for James for the love of his life. And they handle it in opposite ways as they both seek resolution, one by fleeing from the pain (Angel does, just as Cordy and Fred do) and James embracing it to a suicidal extreme and seeking revenge. Perhaps Angel does feel bad that his love for Buffy wasn't as strong as that of a demon for his own lover, though in the end, he realizes Cordy is right, it's better to honor the memory than let the memory destroy you.

And another subtle point on the Dark Mirror aspect, Cordy is delighted to find Angel at the start, not so delighted when she (with Angel) find James behind the very same door (Cordy cries out both times). (Plus, both James and Angel use too much hair gel! :p )

Though really, Cordelia, was it necessary to stick your tongue out at James and then laugh at him as you're getting away on the subway? :mad: :D (And couldn't the writers show a bit more on the passengers reacting to the fight between Angel and James, along with the dusty end? But then I suppose it would be anticlimactic if the man asked if he could have his crutches back, please, perhaps then revealing it was a demon that broke his leg before and maybe he should move. :p )
 
It just occurs to me....I bet that the original idea that it would've been Spike all upset over the loss of Buffy instead of James over the loss of his own lover! :cool::eek:

Only they'd have to get rid of Spike then, and they weren't willing to do that. So they invented James and Elizabeth instead.

Spike would've fit so well...though they might need to fine tune introducing Holtz since I think Spike and Drusilla were after (or "in between" anyway) his time, but James and Elizabeth seemed to have a similar dynamic as Spike and Dru.
 
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Mr Trick

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Really solid ep, I like how Angel is bothered byt the fact that he's getting over Buffy's death. And Cordelia's right, He's honouring Buffy's memory, not diminishing it.

I immediatly got that they were gonna set up Cordelia as the next love interest for Angel, (after getting over Buffy and red herring Kate in S1, and Darla- sort of- in S2) their interactions here signposts it very clearly, and at this point I didn't really have a problem with it.

I like the idea of a mystical operation that makes the vampire invulnerable for a very short time before they die. Seems like it should've come up more often. I mean, we've seen vampire fanatics, right?
Would've liked to see Buffy take on a couple of them, would've been interesting. :)

Why is it that pretty much every first episode of every season of Angel is great and the Buffy ones are so hit and miss.
I really like 'City Of...' 'Judgement' (Faith cameo. :)), This one, 'Deep Down' and 'Conviction', they really set up the oncoming seasons well.
Not sure this is true. I agree about Angel season openings being good (except Judgement wasn't great even with the Faith cameo;)), but I think Buffy's openers stand up pretty well for the most part. I can only think of BVS.D from S5 which I didn't really like. We were rewatching Lessions the other night and even that set the tone very well for season 7 and was pretty consistent throughout.
 

thetopher

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I agree about Angel season openings being good (except Judgement wasn't great even with the Faith cameo;)), but I think Buffy's openers stand up pretty well for the most part.
I stand by the fact that the Angel first eps are much better at outlining the forthcoming season themes way more than Buffy was.
Even Judgement highlights Angel's struggle towards redemption that will come to the fore that season, with him killing the wrong person (in fact somebodyexactly like him- a monster trying to redeem himself) and then struggling with that feeling that he'll never do enough to make up for what he did.

I mean, what did 'The Freshmen' foreshadow exactly? Or Buff vs. Dracula? Bargaining didn't either (although its an enjoyable two-parter).
 

Mr Trick

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I stand by the fact that the Angel first eps are much better at outlining the forthcoming season themes way more than Buffy was.
Even Judgement highlights Angel's struggle towards redemption that will come to the fore that season, with him killing the wrong person (in fact somebodyexactly like him- a monster trying to redeem himself) and then struggling with that feeling that he'll never do enough to make up for what he did.

I mean, what did 'The Freshmen' foreshadow exactly? Or Buff vs. Dracula? Bargaining didn't either (although its an enjoyable two-parter).
Agreed on that point, but then you don't judge the episodes on just those factors. But don't you think that Buffy VS. Dracula sets up the theme of Buffy exploring the history of the Slayer? It is the encourter with Dracula which motivates her to just that. The Freshman is the start of a new chapter for Buffy, so therefore what it does is introduce us to the new space and it does a solid job in that department. And I think it does foreshadow Gile's mid-life crasis storyline, and the scoobies separation arc actually. And Lessions does restart the clock on the show with things coming full circle exempt this time with Dawn taking Buffy's role. So I think it does actually forshadow things, maybe just not as much as the Angel openers.
 

Give Us A Kiss

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Fred is wearing normal, clean clothes for once :)

Wes, get a haircut...

Cordy, of course you liked Pylea, you were a princess there.

Angel, why Sri Lanka out of all places ???o_O

See ???, even he's regreting it...

You guys can deal with demons, but are scared of rats ??? o_O

Angel, it's nice to have you back :)

Angel, maybe Fred has a compulsion to write everything down...

No living vampire slayer that's not in jail=the vampire population becomes larger ??? o_O

Cordy is still managing with Dennis :)

Cordy's taking pills now, it's OK if she need medication, it doesn't change who she is...

It's been a while since we had a flashback...

Darla had to pay for her sins ??? o_O

Wes seems to have bought himself some new clothes...

Cordy's wearing buissness clothes ;)

Cordy, don't make Angel talk about Buffy...

Cordy, your prying isn't as bad as peeping through keyholes, but I'm glad you now know that prying is also unacceptable...

Angel has arrows in him, he survives...

Lorne is back in his bar :)

How did James find the basement ??? o_O

There's a subway in LA ??? o_O

At least Cordy has a cellphone, unlike the people back in Sunnydale...

That's the same train they used when Spike killed Nikki Wood.

James, not everyone who has a broken heart dies from it...

At least he's gone now :)

Cordy, the point is that Angel has not turned into dust yet...

Darla is dealing with private detectives now ??? o_O

Next time: Something more W&H and TPTB centric.
 

Mr Trick

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Am on season three now. Am less positive on this episode than many here. The supporting stuff is fine, but the James plot is weak. He's a really bland character and besides setting up the Holtz plot I didn't see much of a purpose for taking a trip down memory lane;)
 

NeonSlayer

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I hate this episode so much. That's not grieving the love of his life. All we get is him fighting some demons then joking he should've gone to Vegas. Really? You should have partied? Maybe drank, gambled, popped off at the Bunny Ranch to screw some prostitutes?

This was just a Cangel episode. They couldn't give one episode of Angel away from the group, like Buffy grieving him in Anne. Can you imagine if that episode was Buffy arriving back 3 months later with presents, most of her scenes were with Xander, its Xander who tells her what honors Angel, and then s3 & 4 were about Buffy falling in love with and trying to date Xander?

Grieving Buffy. He wasn't any different than he was before she died. This episode was just Angel hugging Cordelia, Angel giving Cordelia jewelry, Angel having one on talks with Cordelia, Angel escaping to safety with Cordelia, James thinking Cordelia is the woman Angel loves. They used Buffy's death as a momentary hiccup in between setting up Cangel in AtS late s2 & early s3.

So apparently the only options for grieving are to cut out your heart or just be like eh I wasn't really in love with her anymore anyways. The latter despite making out with her 4-5 months earlier in Forever and it risking his soul more than sex with Darla.
 

Mr Trick

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I hate this episode so much. That's not grieving the love of his life. All we get is him fighting some demons then joking he should've gone to Vegas. Really? You should have partied? Maybe drank, gambled, popped off at the Bunny Ranch to screw some prostitutes?

This was just a Cangel episode. They couldn't give one episode of Angel away from the group, like Buffy grieving him in Anne. Can you imagine if that episode was Buffy arriving back 3 months later with presents, most of her scenes were with Xander, its Xander who tells her what honors Angel, and then s3 & 4 were about Buffy falling in
love with and trying to date Xander?

Grieving Buffy. He wasn't any different than he was before she died. This episode was just Angel hugging Cordelia, Angel giving Cordelia jewelry, Angel having one on talks with Cordelia, Angel escaping to safety with Cordelia, James thinking Cordelia is the woman Angel loves. They used Buffy's death as a momentary hiccup in between setting up Cangel in AtS late s2 & early s3.

So apparently the only options for grieving are to cut out your heart or just be like eh I wasn't really in love with her anymore anyways. The latter despite making out with her 4-5 months earlier in Forever and it risking his soul more than sex with Darla.
I don't have a problem with this not being a grieving episode. They make it clear that its been a few months now since the news and that Angel has been grieving ever since. The difference between the two stories is that what happened to Buffy happened on her show. So it makes sense for use to see her grieve. With Angel I think his process of grieving would be a lot of brooding and keeping himself to himself. There's not much you can do with that dramatically. I think the show would have lost momentum with a Angel grieving episode.
 

Mylie

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I think this is the consequence of BtVS moving on to another channel. They wanted to address what Buffy meant to Angel and have him move on so they wouldn't need to spend too much time on it. The way they went about the "B" word in this episode is really telling.

I don't adore the result but I'm quite fond of the conversation between Angel and Cordelia, with Angel feeling guilty about being able to go on without her. I love that the episode highlights how different Buffy/Angel is to Romeo and Juliet and it works so well with the mission statement, going all the way back to Amends. I do think Cordy's "I miss her too" is bullshit but I think she meant well and so I'm not angry/annoyed at the characters for anything in this episode.

I think this is the best we were going to get considering the move to UPN and most of my annoyance towards the way they deal with Buffy's death on AtS is about what comes after this episode.
 

Mr Trick

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I think this is the consequence of BtVS moving on to another channel. They wanted to address what Buffy meant to Angel and have him move on so they wouldn't need to spend too much time on it. The way they went about the "B" word in this episode is really telling.

I don't adore the result but I'm quite fond of the conversation between Angel and Cordelia, with Angel feeling guilty about being able to go on without her. I love that the episode highlights how different Buffy/Angel is to Romeo and Juliet and it works so well with the mission statement, going all the way back to Amends. I do think Cordy's "I miss her too" is bullshit but I think she meant well and so I'm not angry/annoyed at the characters for anything in this episode.

I think this is the best we were going to get considering the move to UPN and most of my annoyance towards the way they deal with Buffy's death on AtS is about what comes after this episode.
Even as someone who doesn't like Cangel I quite like the start of it and Cordy's concern for Angel and the growth in their friendship. I'm not so keen on her being damseled by the end of the epi. I think she meant well with that line too. Like she was being supportive of Angel and that she felt Buffy's loss because of the impact on him. Also there probably was always a side of her connected to Sunnydale.
 

Mr Trick

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Cordy is the MVP of this episode. Her pep talk to Angel at the end is a great scene. Mostly its a mediocre season opener. James is so boring. Plus another character from Angel past? At least we got Holtz out of it.
 
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