• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Discussion of 3.02 "That Vision Thing" - Aired 10/1/2011 (WB-US)

Flannen

Flannix
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
3,544
Age
31
Location
UK
When Cordelia's visions begin to manifest as painful physical wounds, Lorne tries to use telepathy to find out why this is happening to her, and how the visions can be stopped. Meanwhile lawyers from Wolfram & Hart make another visit to Angel's hotel.
Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

PassionBecoming

Minuscule Redheaded One
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
2,316
Location
Northern Minnesota
Sineya
-Love Fred sitting under the table. Hahaha!
-Jin again! woohoo! But shouldn't he be bringing those papers to the landlord?
-"I been forking with Gunn!" Oh, my goodness!!!!! That cracked me up!
-What is with the Angel characters and peanut butter? Well, I love it, too, actually.
-Um, those things that grew on Crody's face were gross.
-Awww, Gunn called Fred cute!
-Cordelia made a Bible reference. Interesting.
-Shouldn't they be trying to treat Cordy's wounds a little?
-Lilah loves herself way too much to be threatening.
-Skip and Angel's conversation just makes me laugh for some reason.
 

PassionBecoming

Minuscule Redheaded One
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
2,316
Location
Northern Minnesota
Sineya
Continuing...

-Aww, so glad Angel didn't have to kill another good guy.
-"Yeah, and you're an evil bitch." Excellent.
-So, what's to keep brain guy from messing with Cordy the next time Lilah has a whim??
-Oh.
-The guy Angel rescued is mega-creepy!
-"A vampire? Yes. Though, not a very good one." I like Darla more and more.

Oh, my. So many questions...
 

Jules

Bite Me
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
4,057
Age
36
Location
England
Black Thorn
I really dont like Lilah, she didnt get to were she was through hard work, she got there because Lindsey left. She tries to come across as this all powerful evil person and she's too easily scared. Lindsey would have been a lot better at it.

I love the Darla scenes!

Angel working for W&H, who would have thought :) I can understand why he did it. Cordy means a lot to him. I think he would have done it for any one of the gang though. I liked that Cordy pulled him up about setting free an evil creature just to save her. It shows she's come a long way as well.
 

AnthonyCordova

Earth Invasion Taskforce Unlimited
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
2,034
Location
Denver, Colorado
Sineya
So...is the vision sending guy the same person from the Buffy episode Beer Bad? Definitely the same actor.

I liked the exchange between Angel and the evil man's tormentor. They are both on the same side and working for the same powers, but in opposition to each other. And of course, Angel couldn't kill him. That was good.

The guy Angel rescued looked very creepy.
 

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
618
Age
33
Location
California
Sineya
A theory has occurred to me.
Looking at the combat sequence between Angel and Skip here as well as their next combat in season 4's 'Inside Out', judging by the way Skip throws him around like a rag doll with little effort considering how the entire gang was barely able to restrain him and required a dangerous supernatural taser to tortore him in 'Inside Out', Skip is clearly one insanely powerful dude whom Angel was no match for. Let's also not forget that, here, Angel was weaponless and is not the most skilled in hand to hand combat (see season 1's 'The Ring').
This adds up to Angel's victory here coming across as a bit unconvincingly easy but if one closely examines the climax it appeared there was an abrupt absence of effort on Skip's part.

We know that they were NOT actually on the same side because Skip was NO ally to the Powers That Be but rather was assisting in grooming Cordelia to host and birth one of the greatest evils into our world. A process we are supposed to believe had been occuring for the duration of the entire series which started with her obtaining the visions from Doyle.
This could be considered an interferece, her being both physically and mentally abused to a breaking point of wanting to relinquish the visions. This had to be a threat to Jasmine's plan.

Billy was the demand to reverse the damage and that it happened to be Skip who was guarding his prison I'm speculating was no coincidence. I believe Skip had been placed there to ensure Angel's success in freeing Billy so that Jasmine's vessel would recieve the repair it needed.
(>_< Oh PTB, forgive me for that horrible, disrespectful reference to Cordy, that hurt to type, really it did, but I felt that needed to be worded from Jasmine's perspective).
The fact that Liliah knew Skip was there (thus enabling the third and last planted vision) does not interfere with this theory, there is no reason Skip's insertion couldn't have been on the day Billy was imprisoned, it actually makes the most sense that way to ensure he'd have control over the confinment.

That being put out there, this is one of my overall favorite episodes in the series and alright yeah, largely from a Cangel fan perspective, so sue me (though I hope you'll be fair and not use a W&H lawyer, that would really screw me over, HA! XD).

It's probably also one of the strongest episodes because of the revealing moments between Angel and Cordelia. Cordelia reaches a certain breaking point that causes her to spill at least several months worth of emotional baggage.
"I hate looking and feeling like this but if I didn't have the visions, I wouldn't be able to help you, you wouldn't need me anymore."
"I tried to be brave, but now I'm just scared. I'm scared all the time."

We find out that the visions felt to her like concious night terrors but that she thought she needed them to mean anything to Angel. If you think back, she's quite familiar with his finding the most value in supernatural "freaks", first Buffy then Doyle and even while on his team while Doyle was alive she fell a bit in the background.
"Am I a bad person? Am I just a horrible person because I know I can be snippy sometimes..."
She also reveals a fear of karma, a fear that was obviously triggered to the surface by Maude in 'Room with a Vu' but also could have been subconciously planted in her by Xander.

"That's not why I need you, you're important" might have been the first indication in the series that Angel saw Cordelia since Doyle's death as more than just "vision girl", that he actually valued her as a person, as that push he sometimes needed to keep going and as a friend.
"Cordy, this isn't happening to you because you're bad, if anything it's because you're strong. Stronger than you realize" really expressed how much he respected and admired her for how she handled the visions and possibly a realization of what it must have taken her to give all the emotions she just poured out a backseat for who knows how long. After this expierence I believe he came to respect her even more.

The idea to try to trace the visions to establish contact with the PTB was intriuging, I wonder if it's actually possible? It's a shame that wasn't explored more.
Fred and Gunn, never felt it, I thought from the very beginning that she belonged with Wesley.
I thought Wesley really shined in this episode, his very realist perspective complemented Angel quite well and was what ended up bringing results.
Lorne projecting 'The Sound of Music' on to Cordelia felt like a possible parelle to the ending of her role at the end of season four since if memory serves that movie does NOT have a happy ending (I've only seen it once and it was quite some years ago, before I even watched AtS or BTVS). Which also makes it quite ironic as a favorite movie of Lorne's.

For me, Liliah was never a very strong character, Lindsey carried her even in his departure. She accomplished absolutely nothing to get where she was at this point, she didn't even manage to overthrow Lindsey, he left on his own and that leave is the only reason she got the position she had here. Lindsey however did the position more justice and had more depth...depth period really. He both instilled sympathy and hate on and off in a way that was thought provoking.
So it's not ONLY for Cangel reasons that I enjoy Angel grabbing her throat when she makes a disrespectful comment of Cordelia. She never had any idea who she's really dealing with and Angel is just sexy doing it. Since this is one of my favorite episodes, I've watched it a lot and that never gets old!

My only critisim is that I would have liked to see more backstory on the W&H side of the vision hacking and to have learned a little bit more about the vision hacker character. He was made to seem less important than he was, the whole episode was after all build around his actions. I'd have liked to know his motive but at the very least, I would have settled for his having a name.

Really well done episode though.
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
1,938
Sineya
Fred, why sit under the table ???o_O At least you aren't in your room all the time :)

Cordy, we know how much you hate your visions...

57 violations :eek:

Those visions are just getting worse :(

Wes, Fred is rediscovering the world after being stuck in Pylea for 5 years.

Wes, it's just sod's law, nothing to do with being a dick.

I don't blame Gunn from assuming that the shop owner wanted him out because of the color of his skin...

They got impressive fight skills for older people...

Lilah, I don't like your new haircut...

Fred, I'm so proud of you for going to Cordy's house :)

I hate how Cordy's visions are now leaving marks on her body :(

Gunn, not helpful...

HRB King Angel :p

William Shatner can sing ??? o_O

Angel, Cordy hates being compared to dogs and cars...

I miss Lindsay...

So that guy with the hat is giving Cordy a living hell :mad:

Lilah plays computer golf ??? :eek:

You can tell Wes is sad because Angel told him he can't come :(

The demon has a point, repetetivness can get annoying.

Cordy is doing better :)

Be careful Lilah...

Never noticed that the AI car has what looks like an old California licence plate...

Angel, you eat now ???

Bones are the new dice ??? o_O

At least preggo Darla found the private detective she was looking for...

Next time: Body Switching.
 

Out for a walk

5 Words Or Less...
Joined
Jun 1, 2017
Messages
197
The conversation between Angel and Skip is why I love Angel and BTVS. Something so simple and hilarious.
 
So...is the vision sending guy the same person from the Buffy episode Beer Bad? Definitely the same actor.


Yes, that is Kal Penn. He has been quite a few things since then.
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Messages
2,804
Age
22
Location
Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Sineya
One of my fav eps!
Cordelia shines in this episode. She's such a fighter & it makes me sad that she thinks she loses her worth without her visions. Such a strong woman & this might be the only ep that I'm angry at Lilah for what she's doing considering I adore villain queen Lilah.
I loved how Cangel was developing and Angel wanted so badly to help Cordelia .
& Angel @ the end killing the guy is badass!
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
13,320
Age
39
Location
London, UK
This should have been the season opening IMO. I don't really like the visions storyline, but I liked how this upped the stakes and it was a strong Cordy episodes. Plus we got great Lilah. This was the season she really comes into her own. Love the rivalry with her and Angel.
 

GreyWalker1958

Potential
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
134
Age
31
Considering what happened here, the following eps and S4 as a whole, Im convinced, Lilah is more or less responsible for Cordelia's fate.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
881
Age
38
This is a by the numbers episode. The bad guys put Cordelia in danger. Angel gets mad and stops them. That's pretty much it. Its been done a 1000 times on this show and on BtVS. Its amazing on rewatch how many times "the feminist show" has Cordy screaming and begging for help and needing to be rescued.
 

vampmogs

Potential
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
235
Age
30
I don't think AtS was ever sold as a feminist show. It was an action show with a male lead.
Yep. In fact, Whedon admits that in the first 5 minutes of the pilot episode he pretty backtracks on the mission statement he'd made on BtVS by having the blonde women attacked by a monster in an alleyway and Angel coming to their rescue. AtS is and always has been pretty traditional when it comes to gender roles and it has never claimed to be a feminist text. Most of the people Angel helps in S1 are pretty much damsels in distress.

The subversion in AtS is Angel's anti-hero status as he struggles with his nature. In the opening teaser the subversion isn't the hero saving the blonde damsel in stress - that's played completely straight - but rather the hero having an inherent darkness that he's struggling with ( *sees the blood* "get away from me").

As for That Vision Thing, I'm overall not that fond of episodes revolving around Cordy's visions. As the years go on the less enthusiastic I get about that whole arc in general. However, I do think this episode probably does the best job in the bunch and I think Charisma does some of her best work here. I'm not sure if she was suffering from a cold at the time or she was able to put on a croaky voice but whatever it is, it really helps sell her performance after she's been burned and mutilated. I also think Angel's protectiveness towards her was really nice to see and that the scenes between him and Lilah were well done.
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
431
Age
32
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
No, the subversion was Angel doesn't save the girl (Tina) that he tries to help. He fails his first mission. *THAT* was the subversion of the male hero trope.

He fails quite a few times to save people he's trying to help, not everybody wants to be saved despite his best efforts and even loses most of his friends along the way.

The pitch tape even has dialog to this effect.
 
Last edited:

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
6,392
Location
UK
I agree that it is a show about not-a-good-person trying to be good. He often makes things much worse for others and himself by his actions, though at his core his intention is always to do the right thing. He's a one step forwards two steps back kinda guy.

As for Cordelia, I adore her and her arc. I love that this mean vain girl is given the visions and becomes an integral part of the good v's evil power play. She is like Angel, a not-a-good-person trying to be good and that's why they work as a team. All the AtS characters are shadowy with poor histories and questionable motivations, trying to do the right thing, often against their own natures. They even make Fred attempt to murder someone to bring her into their not-good-people gang.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
733
Age
31
One issue with Angel as a hero is that he often help other people. Not only is Angel a man often helping women, but he has nothing in common with those he saves. For example, "City of" is a story of the exploitation of young women in the entertainment industry. Angel's role in this story is being the man-with-no-name who rides in to set things right, but he does not really belong to that story in any way. BtVS is about a class of high schoolers, trying to make it through high school together or about Buffy and her sister making it after their mother dies.
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
431
Age
32
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
Angel belongs in the story because of the concept of L.A. as a place of lost souls. People who came for the glamor and glitz in the City of Angels, only to be chewed up and spit out in a city where people are preyed on (which becomes a metaphor with the monsters). It's not just women in L.A. who are down-and-outs at the end of their rope and getting swallowed into the underbelly.

Angel does, in fact, relate to that. He's been on the receiving end of being thrown out and discarded. He has existed on the fringes of society, hiding his identity and his dark secrets (see the other residents of the Hyperion being paralleled with him in AYNoHYEB). Hell, he even has lived as a homeless man and starts a business despite having no legal identity.

He comes to the city and quickly finds that things are much bigger and crueler than even he ever expected, much like those young starlets. He expected demons and got lawyers. Like all the damsels, he's also lost and in over his head in the big city that has secrets that surprise even someone as worldly as him.

Note how when Tina is talking to Angel, she keeps talking about how he's not treating her like the other men in the city and he gets caught talking like an age-of-chivalry old guy frequently with women who have learned to expect the worst. He's consistently called on his old-fashioned values by numerous abused female characters. Bethany even goes as far as to note his use of romantic language like "make love" instead of "sex". They consistently accuse him of being too good to be true. He's absolutely being compared to the other men these women come across. And in cases like Somnambulist, we have Kate's profiling that outright parallels Angel's entire story as the murder suspect.

We also see several male victims early on like dweeby Neil getting preyed on by Tahlmer in the guise of women out of his league, as well as none other than our very own Phantom Dennis with his Mommie Dearest. We also had billionaire David Nabbit whose own party guests wouldn't talk to him and his money clearly wasn't buying him real love. Doyle himself was one of those broken lost souls brought into Angel's orbit, as was Wesley after having lost everything to being a failure. Angel, Kate and Wesley's daddy issues in common are prevalent even by season 1. They're all failures in the eyes of their parents.

Angel comes to L.A. to grow old and die in a city that is in constant pursuit of eternal youth (careers depend on it). He's even targeted for this, except he doesn't see it as a gift.

Tina kept looking for signs that Angel was a monster and made the mistake of not trusting the one monster she should've trusted. Comparisons between Angel and Russell both liking pain and talking about it like it's a friend is part of the episode. Angel isn't paralleled with Tina; he's her would-be savior being paralleled with her abuser.

Addiction is one of the connections made in City of... Angel has his. Doyle is shown as an alcoholic. Margo is shown likewise as a pill popper. All have dark secrets that involve dead people on their consciences.

Angel, Doyle and Cordy (one of those wannabe starlets he saves) bond over redemption. Even if Cordy's past isn't dark, she does feel she's being punished for who she used to be.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom