Discussion of 3.07 "Revelations" - Aired 11/17/1998 (WB-US)

[Mr Trick]

I enjoyed Buffy's reaction when Ms. Post suggested that Giles was becoming too American Was a great one shot appearance for Serena Scott Thomas. She came into her own especially after being revealed to be the villain of the piece. Some decent effects during the glove scene also at least for the time. Plus its the first time the writers nod to the Fuffy shippers

A sleeper episode for the season I think.

 

[Btvs fan]

Rewatched - Ugh I really can't stand this episode.
The awful English stereotypes, I'm willing to bet that prior to this episode Petrie had never visited the UK.
The plot only works because Giles didn't bother to ring up the Council and check Gwen Post is who she says she is.
While Buffy mentions the glove to Angel (DB was shirtless a lot in S3 I noticed) who happens to know where it is and happens to get it the exact same time Xander is at the crypt who then happens to follow Angel and who catches Angel and Buffy kissing at that exact moment. All really contrived.
Faith encounters Lagos and gets beaten up only for Buffy to fight him and win, subtlety is not strong here.
Faith and Buffy fight again later which again feels contrived and watching the S3 overview and Petrie giggling like a geeky school boy over "these two Slayers fought" you can tell it was contrived and thats what he wanted.
However I will say the more obvious bruises on Faith as opposed to Buffy was actually a decent bit of subtlety in showing who was winning the fight without actually stating it.
Petrie is considered a great writer for Faith but I never though that. He likes to write the psychotic bad girl who says dirty things but that's not the same thing as writing her well. Its telling that in the Faith 4 parter in Buffy s4/Angel s1 his was the weakest of the episodes and in Buffy S7 she was written better in Dirty Girls by Goddard.
The interesting plot point of Giles feeling betrayed and disrespected by Buffy is dropped by the end of the episode.
Anyway The thing I hate most though was the writers having Xander set Faith up to kill Angel but then copping out midway when they find Giles "that's not Angel's style no bitemarks" Wait what Dru didnt bite Kendra when she killed her ! It was only done so the writer could absolve Xander of responsibility.

All in all I don't like this episode, I give it 4/10 for some good moments but it's not the sum of its parts and overrated imo

 

[Btvs fan]

@Puppet Yes I know I was using that as just a General example nothing more

 

[Puppet]

@Puppet Yes I know I was using that as just a General example nothing more

But it's not general. Xander doesn't claim that vampires wouldn't do that, but specifically, that Angel wouldn't. I personally love this moment, because while Xander jumped to conclusions, he does eventually think things through and isn't willing to just vilify Angel for the sake of it.

 

[Btvs fan]

But it's not general. Xander doesn't claim that vampires wouldn't do that, but specifically, that Angel wouldn't. I personally love this moment, because while Xander jumped to conclusions, he does eventually think things through and isn't willing to just vilify Angel for the sake of it.

There is no way Xander could know that was not Angel, it seemed like a cop out by the writer to absolve him responsibility of setting Faith up to kill Angel

 

[Puppet]

There is no way Xander could know that was not Angel, it seemed like a cop out by the writer to absolve him responsibility of setting Faith up to kill Angel

Except Xander didn't say that he knew, he was saying what he thought, it was up to Faith what to do with that. No one character is the master of all, but they all get to have opinions. Xander has been around Angel long enough that he has formed opinions on him that go beyond 'hate Deadboy'. But if you don't like it, you don't like it. Mostly I just didn't understand the comparison to some vamp that wasn't Angel.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Angel would never punch Giles and leave him unconscious. Neither would Dru. She severed the veins in Kendra's throat. Vampires are master killers.

Xander may be a jealous idiot, but even he couldn't delude himself into thinking Angel had done this, and he would never hurt Angel without believing he had cause.

 

[katmobile]

I really dislike Gwendolyn Post, she's such an evil snob! I also hate Xander in this episode, he is so mean. I cant believe people are so narrow minded and distrustful of Buffy. She knows the consequences of being with Angel, her friends should know that she would protect them, she was willing to kill Angelus and she sent Angel into Hell knowing that he was cured. Giles makes a coment that Angel tortured him for hours, it wasnt Angel it was Angelus and Giles is forever confirming that the demon is not the same as the person (his speach to Xander in season one confirms this).

I love the Bangel scenes as well!

You're right but I can appreciate it's harder to make that distinction if you've been tortured and your girlfriend murdered and placed in your bed.
There's also the fact Buffy concealed the fact Angel was back and I think part of it was that she didn't want other people interfering and I know Xander is terrible but she could have just told Giles like she does with Dawn. Part of her wanted alone time with Angel to have the initimacy because it felt right but not have other people's judgement.

 

[katmobile]

Have we watched different shows? The Buffy/Angel-verse is a supernatural one. One where magic exists. One where vampirism is demonic aka a supernatural occurance. I'm talking strictly about human souls, as were all my previous examples. And any human can lose their soul in this supernatural verse, simply because magic and demonic powers exist in it. So if Angel is considered dangerous or it's ok to murder him pre-emptively because his soul is anchored via a curse that has a nasty clause in it, then all souled beings (those with human souls) should be killed. Because in this world anyone can lose their soul and there are plenty of ways this can happen.

There is a state in which Angel lost his soul without magic. Pulling out someone's soul must be a rare and difficult ability we've only see it done once by magic and that was a specific demon stealing it by increments.

 

[littlemisscooby]

All I'm going to say about Xander is that I really wish he had confronted Buffy about it before calling her out in front of everyone. He was cheating on Cordelia at the time so I always wondered if it was a way to somehow project and deflect his own guilt. I still love him though!

I felt deeply sorry for Giles, that Buffy didn't tell him, because of what happened to Jenny. She keeps a lot of heavy things to herself throughout the entire series. I can understand why after the way they treated her in Dead Man's Party (except Giles, he was never awful), but it does get annoying sometimes and at times I definitely wish she'd confided in them, or at least Giles more. We all know Giles had the decency to have helped her understand why Angel came back even if he hated Angel. He would do it for Buffy. I can understand his betrayal.

This episode was cringey because I hate when the scoobies fight. We can see Faith's conflict with Buffy starting to bubble to the surface in this episode which was also unnerving when I watched it for the first time.

 

[whatdBuffyDo]

I liked Xander in the first and second seasons a lot. However since the start of Season 3, I started to develop a disliking for him. I don't know how things will turn out in later episodes yet, but for now, I see him coming too hard on Buffy when it is not really necessary. When Buffy returned to the Sunnydale in Episode 2, everybody resented her in their own ways and due to their own reasons. No reaction other than Xander's bugged me much. With others, it was sad and like one of those moments in life where you do something without thinking it very throughly and end up scarring some of your relationships badly. For example, Willow explained her own resentment clearly, Joyce and Giles, too. However, Xander came forward too harshly without giving good explanations on his part. He vent on Buffy on behalf of others, like he didn't actually consider how to communicate his own resentment to her. And it continued through other episodes until we see another prominent example of it in Ep 7. Everybody had solid reasons to resent Buffy about keeping Angel as a secret, while Xander didn't explain himself but vent on her on behalf of others in the group. Well I guess show is preparing him a path to grow, and also he is still a teenager after all. I would be glad if it turns out that way, but still I cannot help but getting angry at him or writers, and view his character objectively because he was such a sweetheart before, though with his own flaws, and I empathized with him; but now I only can really understand him by cognitively emphatizing (lol.)
Also, in this episode, I felt very sad about Faith. Again, I don't know how it would turn out in later episodes but in Ep 3, while slaying a vampire, she said something like "My dad mom hits better than you" (might not be the exact words🤪) and in Ep 7, she stated her distaste with authority figures and also got hurt due to Mrs Post's attempts to provoke her by making her feel betrayed by her new friends. I am excited to learn her backstory and how she grows.

 

[Faded90]

My issue with Xander in this episode is the same as my issue with his ‘kick his ass’ lie in Becoming is that while I understand Xander’s feelings and why he’s angry, particularly in this episode but the problem is that his actions in both episodes could affect Buffy’s other friendships and he genuinely couldn’t care less

In this episode he twists the situation to Faith as he knows she can kill Angel and he makes it sound like Angel is still evil and Buffy doesn’t care that he’s potentially dangerous. Buffy has lied and that’s not on but he twists the situation in a way that absolutely affects Buffys friendship with Faith.

Just like in Becoming, I understand why he wants Angelus dead but he does it in a way that makes Buffy believe her best friend and biggest supporter in the Angelus situation is now cheering her on to kill the man she loves

Xanders anger is understandable, his selfishness and lies to get what he wants isn’t

 

[garfan]

My issue with Xander in this episode is the same as my issue with his ‘kick his ass’ lie in Becoming is that while I understand Xander’s feelings and why he’s angry, particularly in this episode but the problem is that his actions in both episodes could affect Buffy’s other friendships and he genuinely couldn’t care less

In this episode he twists the situation to Faith as he knows she can kill Angel and he makes it sound like Angel is still evil and Buffy doesn’t care that he’s potentially dangerous. Buffy has lied and that’s not on but he twists the situation in a way that absolutely affects Buffys friendship with Faith.

Just like in Becoming, I understand why he wants Angelus dead but he does it in a way that makes Buffy believe her best friend and biggest supporter in the Angelus situation is now cheering her on to kill the man she loves

Xanders anger is understandable, his selfishness and lies to get what he wants isn’t

and without the lies she might have held back

Have we watched different shows? The Buffy/Angel-verse is a supernatural one. One where magic exists. One where vampirism is demonic aka a supernatural occurance. I'm talking strictly about human souls, as were all my previous examples. And any human can lose their soul in this supernatural verse, simply because magic and demonic powers exist in it. So if Angel is considered dangerous or it's ok to murder him pre-emptively because his soul is anchored via a curse that has a nasty clause in it, then all souled beings (those with human souls) should be killed. Because in this world anyone can lose their soul and there are plenty of ways this can happen.

overall it seems it's a lot more effort to suck the soul out of a regular person and also those soulless people wouldn't have a pre-existing demon in there

 

[r2dh2]

Again, my observation isn't a moral or ethical judgment on the choice she made (that's something else), but that she said she didn't have a choice at all. Buffy can justify it any way she wants, and sometimes her reasoning is strong and other times it's weak, but she normally owns her choices rather than claiming she didn't have a choice to begin with. It's one of the things I admire about her character, but that aspect of her character was ignored in Revelations.

I was watching this episode yesterday and I was thinking about your comment regarding Buffy's "I didn't have a choice" response. I'm not sure if it has been discussed elsewhere, but the way I rationalize this is not like a faux pas but as the writers setting Angel's exit from the series. I think it was mentioned here that Angel was supposed to leave after Amends. So I see it as the writers telling us Angel has to leave for Buffy's sake (which is again played this way at the end of this season with Joyce asking him to go). In this episode, Willow also says: "I feel that when it comes to Angel, you don't see clearly" (seemingly forgetting that Buffy killed him at the end of S2). And in the next episode, it is implied several times that Buffy could leave Sunnydale for college if she wanted to since now they have Faith, but Angel is the main factor tying her down. Then it would have made sense Angel's exit mid-season seeking to continue making amends for his past and "freeing" Buffy... which is what happens at the end of S3, after Joyce talks to him. Anyway, it's the only way I can explain to myself this comment.

 

[Madido24]

I truely thought Xander was terrible this episode, he fights with Buffy and then baits and encourages Faith into attacking Angel 'cause he's feeling hurt.
In my eyes, Xander took a long time to recover from this- I think I didn't really like him again until 'The Prom', where he was nice to Cordelia.

He was trying to redeem himself after he cheated on her and almost got her killed lol. I didn't feel much better for him xD

 

[katmobile]

He was trying to redeem himself after he cheated on her and almost got her killed lol. I didn't feel much better for him xD

I don't particularly like Xander but I do especially since he didn't tell her.

 

[r2dh2]

I’m sure that I’m going to get an earful here, but I watched the episode again and I read the scene in a different way, I still dislike Xander in this episode but… I don’t think that he manipulates Faith.

Earlier in the episode, we see Faith telling Buffy about her bad experiences with men and how she’s now “strictly get some, get gone.” I see her genuinely trying to bond with Buffy, she is clearly crass in the way she poses her questions, but she seems sincerely interested in getting to know more about Buffy and Angel, a huge chapter in the Scoobies lives pre-Faith. She’s put off by Buffy’s response but backs down.

Then Gwendolyn visits Faith in her motel room and makes her feel like the outcast again, casually mentioning the “secret” meeting between the Scoobies, asks her to trust her, compares her to the Spartans and promises to make her a better slayer.

When Faith finds Xander in The Bronze, he doesn’t want to talk, but Faith is pissed by being left out of their meeting and feels betrayed when she finds out that Buffy knew about Angel being alive. I interpret this scene as Xander speaking without thinking, repeating what he said in the meeting: Angel = dangerous, Buffy not listening, Glove in Angel’s hands = bad bad.

Once they find Giles, Xander second guesses himself instead of jumping immediately to blame Angel, but Faith’s response is “Yeah, and he's gonna have a whole lot of company (referring to Giles possibly dying), unless *I* do something permanent.”

This is the only time that I remember Faith being righteous, as opposed to cynical or pleasure seeking when referring to slaying. I read it as Faith thinking that she’s the only one who can stop Angel because Buffy is blinded by love, finally being “better” than Buffy at something and maybe making Gwendolyn proud of her.

I still agree that Xander is way out of line by confronting Buffy earlier, for not thinking twice about what he tells Faith and by going along with her until he stops to second guess himself, but I don’t see him as manipulating Faith. I see Gwendolyn as the main manipulator. She senses Faith need for belonging and praise, and the Angel angle works out in her favor.

 

[thetopher]

Um, he still manipulates her by giving Faith just the right amount of information to get what he wants. Doesn't matter if he later changes his mind and hesitates because he, again, later tells Buffy 'I guess your boyfriend isn't as cured as you thought'.

Faith isn't blameless here, she is reckless impulsive and makes the wrong choice but she never lies or manipulates like other characters. She is, if you like, acting 'in good faith' for the entire episode. But she still got played by Post AND Xander.

 

[Athene]

I think Xander maybe spoke without thinking and out of anger at the bronze but when Faith says she's going to do something about it (kill Angel) that was Xander's moment to at least try and de-escalate things because she's going off his words alone. Not only does Xander not try and take his words back, he actively encourages Faith to kill Angel "Can I watch?". So at that point Xander really did manipulate Faith into a tool just like Mrs Post.

 

[thrasherpix]

One important difference is that when Xander encourages Faith, he actually thinks it's a good thing, justice served, and doesn't trust Buffy's judgment. Post, on the other hand, knows Angel will try to stop her and is trying to destroy the glove that she wants. Furthermore, Post thinks Faith is an idiot and tells her so while Xander actually thought he was right until he changed his mind (at which point he openly tells Faith he no longer thinks it's Angel that's the threat).