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Discussion of 3.09 "The Wish" - Aired 12/8/1998 (WB-US)

Real Angel

Townie
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Really creative and interesting episode. Best patrs for me were evil Xander and Willow though. I was really shocked by Angel and Buffy death scenes. Giles rocks even in that reality. Great concept, only i wish that Cordy remembered it all,so she could not wish such a thing ever again. Sunnydale really looked lost beyond repair without Buffy, like Nazi Germany atmosphere.
 

crazysoulless

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The Supernatural episode The End always makes me think of The Wish. Alt Dean is so much like alt Buffy. So weary and hard but righteous and good. And their future selves end up more like their alt selves and both shows lasted long enough to see it happen in a believable character arc.

Alt Buffy is murdered by The Master. Alt Dean is murdered by Lucifer. Both of the villains are inversions of God.

The only way Cordelia could survive as long as she did was being placed there late in the game. In reality, she was the damsel on BtVS & AtS who got rescued the first week of the series. She blamed Buffy and was oh so grateful to Angel.

Without Buffy, Cordelia would've been sucked dry by Luke in The Harvest. Or hit by a truck in Witch. Or severely mutilated by Marci in Out of Sight Out of Mind. Or beheaded and stitched onto a patchwork corpse to be reanimated as a zombie playmate in Some Assembly Required. Or eaten alive by Machida in Reptile Boy.

I wonder what happened to Luke and Darla. Maybe Angel staked Luke but not in time to stop the blood transfer that would give The Master enough power to break through the barrier. Maybe Darla went in search of Buffy in Cleveland and murdered Joyce and that's what brought her to Sunnydale.

How did Xander & Willow get so far up the Aurelius pecking order if they were barely sired in s1? I guess with the big hitters gone there was a vacuum.
 

thrasherpix

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Pleasantly odd, Buffy saying the "Us against Cordelia thing" seemed wrong, when that's how it started out (meanwhile, Giles still has the same first line when he meets her). Another small detail is that Cordelia looked distressed (if keeping it together) to me when she heard Xander and Willow were dead.
 

crazysoulless

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_20180331_014130.JPG

Buffy: World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing doesn't change that.
Dean: This isn't your time. It's mine. You don't make the decisions. I do.

Wishverse Buffy & Endverse Dean are not like Faith at all. They are hardened from all the responsibility, stress, unfounded guilt, making hard decions without anything left in their life to counterbalance it. Faith was like a drug addict spiraling before hitting bottom or a rebel without a cause. She lacked their discipline and would call both uptight control freaks who've been in the game too long.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Except that Wishverse Buffy is cynical, completely reckless and thinks people want to get in her pants when they tell her she's 'their destiny'.

Very Faith, at least pre-Finch's death, its just that Faith hides it better.
'The Wish is deliberate foreshadowing of what a slayer is without ties to the world..
 

crazysoulless

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Except that Wishverse Buffy is cynical, completely reckless and thinks people want to get in her pants when they tell her she's 'their destiny'.

Very Faith, at least pre-Finch's death, its just that Faith hides it better.
'The Wish is deliberate foreshadowing of what a slayer is without ties to the world..

I think any girl hearing a guy they just met talk about how he survived years of captivity and torture hoping she'd come into his life because she's his "destiny" would think it was some kind of seduction.

WishverseBuffy didn't flirt with anyone and seemed like EndverseDean in keeping it for the bedroom. Faith was extremely open with her sexuality, often brought it up, and used it as part of her personality.

WishverseBuffy & EndverseDean couldn't see anything but the war anymore. They were fighting what they thought was a losing war. They saw everyone as expendable not because they thought everyone had bad in them but because they thought everyone was going to die. They were no nonsense kind of jaded. Faith was an insecure fool me twice shame on me type of jaded. She relished the fight but used it to hide the violence inside her from things (her crappy childhood & former relationships) that had nothing to do with the war. Faith's problems weren't from being a soldier. I don't think Faith hid anything very well. You could see the desperation to make connections and be loved. She just didn't know how to do it and resented that.
 

thetopher

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I think any girl hearing a guy they just met talk about how he survived years of captivity and torture hoping she'd come into his life because she's his "destiny" would think it was some kind of seduction.

Not really, some girls might be puzzled but they wouldn't dismiss something so obviously sincere in such cynical terms. They would ask what Angel meant by than instead of mocking it out of hand.

WishverseBuffy didn't flirt with anyone and seemed like EndverseDean in keeping it for the bedroom. Faith was extremely open with her sexuality, often brought it up, and used it as part of her personality.

Faith used it as a defense mechanism to put all guys she interacted with in a certain category.
Buffy also uses it as a defense mechanism just stripped down to its bare 'keep away from me' vibe. Not the same but similar.

Faith's problems weren't from being a soldier. I don't think Faith hid anything very well.

Wishverse Buffy is what Faith would've turned into in a few years without those human connections; the recklessness, the cynical 'it is what it is' mind set, the dark view of the whole, no hopefulness or will to inspire others..

And clearly Buffy disagrees with you since she tells Faith in 'Enemies' 'I never knew you had such rage inside you'; Faith hid her rage, jealousy and feelings for Buffy pretty well and they all exploded after Finch's death.

You could see the desperation to make connections and be loved. She just didn't know how to do it and resented that.

Wasn't just Faith's problem actually, Buffy and the Scoobies were well wrapped up in their own problems (keeping Angel a secret/feelings, illicit kissing/footsy) and didn't really connect with Faith the way she obviously wanted before 'Revelations'.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
'The Wish is deliberate foreshadowing of what a slayer is without ties to the world..

Which is why I always think about how s7 Buffy is alot like Wishverse Buffy.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
And late seasons Dean has often been like EndverseDean. But Faith was the way she was before being chosen, her issues aren't caused by being a Slayer.

DeadlyDuo

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Buffy and the Scoobies were well wrapped up in their own problems (keeping Angel a secret/feelings, illicit kissing/footsy) and didn't really connect with Faith the way she obviously wanted before 'Revelations'.

They have no responsibility to make Faith feel special. Unfortunately for Faith, she was at a social disadvantage. She arrived in town and tried to break into a group of close friends that had 2 years worth of friendship and shared dangerous encounters under their belt. She was met with initial resistance from Buffy then kind of tried to exclude Willow and Xander by dominating Buffy's time to the point that Buffy was skipping out on class to be with Faith. The bond wasn't there. This "right of passage" to be accepted by the scoobies wasn't exclusive to Faith, other characters had to undergo it such as Cordelia, Spike, Tara and Anya (it's why Kennedy annoys me so much because she was given instant access despite doing nothing to earn it). Faith failed to be accepted by the scoobies in her own eyes and as a result, she pushed them away and rejected them, even more so after Finch's death. She sided so easily with the Mayor because he accepted her with open arms. She formed a close emotional connection with him that she never got with the scoobies.

It's not the fault of the scoobies that the emotional connection with Faith didn't develop, they just didn't bond with her.
 

crazysoulless

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Not really, some girls might be puzzled but they wouldn't dismiss something so obviously sincere in such cynical terms. They would ask what Angel meant by than instead of mocking it out of hand.

Faith used it as a defense mechanism to put all guys she interacted with in a certain category.
Buffy also uses it as a defense mechanism just stripped down to its bare 'keep away from me' vibe. Not the same but similar.

Wishverse Buffy is what Faith would've turned into in a few years without those human connections; the recklessness, the cynical 'it is what it is' mind set, the dark view of the whole, no hopefulness or will to inspire others..

And clearly Buffy disagrees with you since she tells Faith in 'Enemies' 'I never knew you had such rage inside you'; Faith hid her rage, jealousy and feelings for Buffy pretty well and they all exploded after Finch's death.

Wasn't just Faith's problem actually, Buffy and the Scoobies were well wrapped up in their own problems (keeping Angel a secret/feelings, illicit kissing/footsy) and didn't really connect with Faith the way she obviously wanted before 'Revelations'.

Buffy saw that Faith's tough girl bravado hid a scared girl underneath. She just didn't know Faith was capable of trying to torture an innocent person to death out of jealousy and resentment.

A lot of the fandom accuse BtVS Angel of the same thing WishverseBuffy did because he was written in a very romantic way. He'd found The One after a century of misery and put his salvation and possibility for happiness in her. Even some fellow Bangel shippers think they are melodramatic. I think the epicness of their relationship and story warrants it but BtVS had it mocked in The Zeppo and AtS had Wes & Cordelia mock it.

S3-4 prove that Faith would not have turned into WishverseBuffy. She was the explosion type and not the fade away slowly type. She's suicide by cop and not fighting the fight when you no longer have a reason to keep going because it's what ruined your life and you're going to see it to the end.

Of course they all had issues. But you said Faith was good at hiding hers and I don't think she was. They always have issues and if Faith knew how to see things from other people's perspectives she could have forged relationships with them. But she was not taught how to do that by her alcoholic mother, deadbeat dad, or loser hookups. And she assumed because she couldn't do it that those with friendships and romances must have had it handed to them.
 

RomanticSoul

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It's not the fault of the scoobies that the emotional connection with Faith didn't develop, they just didn't bond with her.
I disagree but only because I consider Giles a Scoobie and he is the one who massively failed Faith. Hell, Giles massively failed to do his freaking job which was to be a watcher. I have never blamed the other Scoobies because they are teenagers dealing with their own crap aside from also having been involved in demon fighting for 2 years by then. They have their plate full. It was Giles' responsibility to take care of Faith and he did absolutely nothing. I can't imagine a watcher who takes his/her job seriously would let their charge live in a motel room. Because a watcher would know that aside from all the demons even the vampires would have easy access. But I don't think Giles even knew that Faith lived in a motel, did he? That's how not involved he was in what his charge was doing.
 

crazysoulless

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I disagree but only because I consider Giles a Scoobie and he is the one who massively failed Faith. Hell, Giles massively failed to do his freaking job which was to be a watcher. I have never blamed the other Scoobies because they are teenagers dealing with their own crap aside from also having been involved in demon fighting for 2 years by then. They have their plate full. It was Giles' responsibility to take care of Faith and he did absolutely nothing. I can't imagine a watcher who takes his/her job seriously would let their charge live in a motel room. Because a watcher would know that aside from all the demons even the vampires would have easy access. But I don't think Giles even knew that Faith lived in a motel, did he? That's how not involved he was in what his charge was doing.

Giles was never Faith's Watcher. She wasn't his charge. Giles was assigned to Buffy and then two years later Faith arrived in town. He met Buffy the month she turned 16 and was the only Slayer but met Faith three months before she turned 18 and there was already an active Slayer. Faith chose to seek out Buffy & Giles, they didn't move to Boston for the sole purpose of guiding her.

He definitely should have helped her but it wasn't his responsibility.
 

RomanticSoul

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Giles was never Faith's Watcher. She wasn't his charge. Giles was assigned to Buffy and then two years later Faith arrived in town. He met Buffy the month she turned 16 and was the only Slayer but met Faith three months before she turned 18 and there was already an active Slayer. Faith chose to seek out Buffy & Giles, they didn't move to Boston for the sole purpose of guiding her.

He definitely should have helped her but it wasn't his responsibility.
Watcher. Slayer. And the job description is pretty clear cut there. Besides, you are ignoring canon in your statement. Watch 3x03 again. At the end Giles calls the WC and the decision made was that Giles looks after both slayers. So what I said is correct. I know you hate Faith or whatever but can we please stick to canon.
 

crazysoulless

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Watcher. Slayer. And the job description is pretty clear cut there. Besides, you are ignoring canon in your statement. Watch 3x03 again. At the end Giles calls the WC and the decision made was that Giles looks after both slayers. So what I said is correct, you are ignoring canon.

Forgetting one scene is hardly grounds for saying several times that I'm ignoring canon. Either way it seemed more that it was to keep a generalised eye on Faith until a new Watcher was assigned to her. It's been a long time since I've seen that episode. They didn't think twice in Revelations about Gwendolyn Post being Faith's new Watcher and that was just a month later. In the prequel graphic novel Slayer Interrupted after Merrick dies all the Watchers Council did for Buffy for the rest of the year was send a Watcher to assess her state of mind after she had been expelled, arrested, and placed in the psych ward. In fact, Helpless proved that the Watchers Council didn't condone actually caring for your Slayer as a person.
 

white avenger

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On the subject of Gilles, apparently (well, obviously) he was assigned to Sunnydale in spite the fact that, in the wishverse, he was not Buffy's Watcher. That might be seen as evidence of my theory that he was never actually intended to be Merrick's replacement, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time, so he sort of inherited a Slayer by accident.

Of course, it doesn't explain why a more suitable Watcher wasn't sent to take charge of Buffy, unless, of course, the Watchers' Council was running short of qualified field operatives, and that, in turn, might explain why when Giles actually was replaced in Season 3, his replacement was someone fresh out of the Watchers' Academy, with no field experience.
 

thetopher

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They have no responsibility to make Faith feel special.

I never said it was, I merely said that it wasn't all Faith's problem in terms of connecting. The Scoobies- being teenagers- had their own issues.
I do think they were quick to make use of her though; patrolling and guarding Wolf-Oz for example.

I will say that Faith was Giles' responsibility and he let her down quite badly in terms of guidance.

Buffy saw that Faith's tough girl bravado hid a scared girl underneath.

Again no, she didn't.
Buffy only knew there was something wrong 'not playing with a full deck' is what she claimed to Giles. It's only afterwards the truth comes out and Buffy sees the scared, traumatized girl who had her Watcher ripped apart in front of her.

She just didn't know Faith was capable of trying to torture an innocent person to death out of jealousy and resentment.

Well wasn't that Angel's suggestion to the Mayor? All Faith did was go along for the ride, rant about stuff. She had Buffy at knife point several times and yet did pretty much nothing, even when provoked.
So I'll say willingness to cold-blooded torture is a stretch.

S3-4 prove that Faith would not have turned into WishverseBuffy.

It doesn't 'prove' anything since Finch's death pushed off the rails. If there had been no Buffy and Faith had been on her own with her own watcher then she may well've ended up like 'Wishverse Buffy'- a cynical burn-out. Hell, she's pretty much almost that in Buffy S8.
 

RomanticSoul

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Forgetting one scene is hardly grounds for saying several times that I'm ignoring canon. Either way it seemed more that it was to keep a generalised eye on Faith until a new Watcher was assigned to her. It's been a long time since I've seen that episode.
You said it wasn't Giles' job to be Faith's watcher. She wasn't his charge. That's ignoring canon and saying you haven't seen those episodes in a while doesn't really help IMO. If you make your points absent of canon knowledge, that's not really going to work in a discussion.

They didn't think twice in Revelations about Gwendolyn Post being Faith's new Watcher and that was just a month later. In the prequel graphic novel Slayer Interrupted after Merrick dies all the Watchers Council did for Buffy for the rest of the year was send a Watcher to assess her state of mind after she had been expelled, arrested, and placed in the psych ward. In fact, Helpless proved that the Watchers Council didn't condone actually caring for your Slayer as a person.
It's not about getting personally involved with your charge to the point of taking on a parental role. It's about a watcher's job. Which is to provide the frame work for a slayer to do her job. That means education, guidance and since most slayers are taken from their families, a roof over their heads and something to eat. Giles couldn't even be bothered to do the bare minimum. Hence he utterly failed in his duties where Faith is concerned.

I don't consider any graphic novel canon. Slayer Interrupted seems to be the re-envisioned Dawnverse Buffy's past. Pre-Dawnverse Buffy didn't spend time in a psych ward/asylum as far as we know, so I don't bother with that retcon. I mean sure, it explains why Dawnverse Buffy is weaker and more screwed up than Canon Buffy is, as having to spend time in an asylum is enough to screw someone up but good.
 

DeadlyDuo

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It's not about getting personally involved with your charge to the point of taking on a parental role. It's about a watcher's job. Which is to provide the frame work for a slayer to do her job. That means education, guidance and since most slayers are taken from their families, a roof over their heads and something to eat. Giles couldn't even be bothered to do the bare minimum. Hence he utterly failed in his duties where Faith is concerned.

You're assuming Faith wanted all that from Giles. My impression of her is that if Giles had tried to make her go to school, she would've laughed in his face. Faith preferred to do her own thing and the freedom that offered her.
 

RomanticSoul

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You're assuming Faith wanted all that from Giles. My impression of her is that if Giles had tried to make her go to school, she would've laughed in his face. Faith preferred to do her own thing and the freedom that offered her.
So? Buffy didn't want anything to with Giles and his ways either at first. And slayers going to school is not normal. Education = what Kendra had aka demon knowledge. Faith had a watcher before Giles who clearly didn't make her go back to school. Faith seemed to be close enough with her previous watcher since watching her watcher get killed royally screwed her up. Hence Faith's attachment issues. But that's something that can be worked on if the watcher bothers to do their job.
 

DeadlyDuo

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So? Buffy didn't want anything to with Giles and his ways either at first. And slayers going to school is not normal. Education = what Kendra had aka demon knowledge. Faith had a watcher before Giles who clearly didn't make her go back to school. Faith seemed to be close enough with her previous watcher since watching her watcher get killed royally screwed her up. Hence Faith's attachment issues. But that's something that can be worked on if the watcher bothers to do their job.

Giles was only Faith's temporary watcher. Faith isn't as young as Buffy was when he took over, Faith is 18 and capable of making her own decisions. What's the point of her getting into Giles' way of thinking if she was going to get a new Watcher anyway? Besides Giles has never been very traditional with Buffy because he knew the methods wouldn't work on her. If they didn't work on her, they certainly weren't going to work on Faith.
 
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