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Discussion of 3.15 "Loyalty" - Aired 2/25/2002 (WB-US)


Mar 7, 2009
Wesley preoccupies himself with protecting Connor and foiling a prophecy that Angel will devour his son. Meanwhile, Gunn and Fred investigate a vampire nest, unaware that the woman who hired them is one of Holtz's lackeys.

Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!


Minuscule Redheaded One
Feb 8, 2011
Northern Minnesota
-Wesley's dream = CREEPY. I don't want Angel to hurt Connor for whatever reason, or have him lose his baby. Everything keeps getting taken away; he needs some happy in his life!
-The women talking about their screaming babies - I feel you, ladies. Angel is all excited about being Mr. Dad. Awww.
-Um, why would that lady want Connor's blood? Ew.
-Angel knows what hockey is?? ([MENTION=9740]Tome[/MENTION], have you seen this??) Angel hitting the puck through the window. HAHAHA
-I love that Angel has the same thoughts as any other parent. "Who is my child going to be?"
-Ugh, Holtz!! So bent on his rage and revenge that he isn't looking at the big picture at all.
-Poor, Wesley. The stress of what he knows is howing. (Ugh, and Fred trying to set him up - ouch.)
-"You 21st century types are so jaded." Hahaha.
-Fred and Gunn are adorable. Awww!
-It's funny how they keep showing Angel just casually drinking blood from a cup in this ep. They haven't done that much during the whole series.
-"Not that kind of tingle." Hahaha. The carousel fight was pretty neat.
-Wesley's tracker? Has he been talking to Riley? Haha. Oh, my gosh, that is CREEPY!! That reminded me of Balthazaar warning Buffy about the ascension.
-"Would it impress you if I told you I invented Daylight Savings Time?" That demon cracks me up.
-Heehee. I love that Wes and Angel were onto Aubry. She is a silly gal.
-Ooo, and I love when Wes is all bad-ass.
-Connor showed Angel the good side of love. :)
-I was just thinking that my son has that same blanket. Might not be able to use it anymore. Ugh, I'm just sad. :(


Bite Me
Jun 18, 2003
Black Thorn
Aww, poor Angel, he's such a love when he's all so concerned over Connor. I really dont like the Fred/Gunn relationship, I just dont picture them together. I just wish Wesley would tell someone about what he's found. Prophecies are tricky things and I cant help comparing Wesley's actions to Giles in season 1 of Buffy when he found out about Buffy's death. Also I could not take anything serious when being told it by a giant burger :)

I didnt miss Cordy in this episode, I did miss Lorne's appearance though.

I really dont like Holtz or his group of vengeful assassins, there all too narrow minded.


Jun 2, 2013
I was annoyed with Aubrey, I really believed her story, although I'm glad Wes and Angel realised she was lying so quickly.

I loved it when Sahjan did a typical Angel/Buffy-esque dramatic pause after he said "I need the blood of Angel's son" and then Lilah quickly cutting in.

It's sweet how into each other they are, but Gunn and Fred are a bit of a flat couple. I hope this doesn't last too long.

That talking CGI burger looked like something out of Jimmy Neutron!


Grr Arrg
Nov 3, 2016
This episode makes me so mad. I can see Wesleys side, but he of all people should know how unreliable prophecies are..why he felt the need to burden himself with it all on his own makes no sense. He should have told someone, he should have told Angel. He saw how much Angel loves Connor, he should have trusted him enough to tell him this information. He's worked along side him for three years and all of sudden he doesn't trust him? Stealing that baby and aligning himself with Holtz was out of character and deeply upsetting. Communication could have solved this whole problem . My heart breaks everytime. Poor Connor :(

Ethan Reigns

Oct 14, 2012
Connor was unique - there had never been a child of two vampires before, so nothing was known about the possibilities. When the prophecy says, "the father will kill the son", did Wesley ever give any thought to the idea that he may have had to? Connor could have grown up to be a monster that no one else could kill aside from the father. Wesley jumped to two conclusions here:

1. Angel would kill Connor
2. Connor should remain alive

and missed the final (true) case

3. The manuscript had been deliberately altered

Wesley must be aware of the problem with the translation of ancient texts. In Buffy season 2 Episode 1, "When She Was Bad", the text mentioned people closest to the master and Giles interpreted this as being his people but Giles later found this meant physically closest to the master. The prophecy should have been taken as one possibility only.

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Feb 4, 2015
Gunn has a point, Wes is loyal to the research...

Road to hell ??? o_O

When did Angel become such a dad ??? (It's not a bad thing).

Angel the socially awkward parent :p

What did she just do ??? :eek:

That sweater is so cute :D

Whitest sport ??? I don't think that race applies to sports but can understand what Gunn meant.

A vamp nest at the pier ??? :eek:

So Holtz got a gang to kill Angel ??? o_O

Holtz is a bit of a coward...

I miss Cordy...

Fred, don't hook Wes up with women...

Looks like Lilah is still alive...

She only has records because she is a robot...

At least W&H decided to put such a policy in place.

The pier looks fun :)

Looks like a vampire...

Do vampires have a thing for things that go spin ??? :p

Wes, what the hell are you doing ??? o_O

Giant hamburger :eek:

That was creepy...

133 years is a long time...

Invented DST ??? May I hug you ???

Aubrey :eek:

Wes, you don't have to go on a date...

Wes :eek:

Wes has a point, Angel is not Angelus.

Holtz, I don't think that the child will be any more safe with you...

That plant demon was creepy...

Room 312, that's Angel's room.

Why do some people heat up the bottle before giving it to the baby ??? Won't the baby get the same nutrients from cold formula (or milk if the baby is over a certain age) ???

Wes, are you OK ??? o_O

Earthquake :eek:

Next time: Wes gives Connor away because of the prophecy.


Spuffy Forever
Oct 2, 2017
Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
This episode annoyed me. Wesley and the prophecies have been an overused storyline on Angel imo. I understand what Wesley was trying to do but honestly he makes me really mad & I hated him this episode.
Not one of my favs this season

Mr Trick

Jan 9, 2015
London, UK
This is one of the big episodes in setting Wesley on the dark path and for the most part I liked it. There are some meaty thematic beats. Plus I love Lilah during the bar sequences, "Not even on you're best day" she kicks ass!:D This is the point from which we start to see the best of her character. Does anyone else ship her and Sahjan?:p

Stake fodder

Feb 6, 2021
Caught on a root
There were a lot of blood references in this episode.
  • Wesley dreams of his book's writing turning to blood and coating his hands with it.
  • Connor has a blood test, and vial is stolen.
  • Angel is shown drinking blood three times (not including biting Connor in the dream).
  • Sahjhan wants Connor's blood.
  • The hamburger demon speaks of the sky turning to blood as a harbinger.
  • Wes says Holtz is waging a "blood vendetta," and Holtz replies that the battle will be a "bloodbath."
  • And finally, Angel bleeds onto Connor's blanket.
Perhaps the meaning will be made clearer, but for now, I think it's to highlight Angel and Connor's relationship, that they are "blood" kin, and also to emphasize to Wes that Angel is a vampire and represents a danger to his son.

Having said that, I'm rather disgusted with Wesley, like others have said. If he would tell Angel about the prophecy, I'm sure Angel would take it seriously, not just dismiss it because he can't believe he would ever hurt his son. Angel knows better than anyone the risks he represents to the people he loves. Instead, Wes broods over it, losing sleep, which just increases his angst about it. The fact that he would even consider Holtz's opinion, a man Wes barely knows and should consider deranged, shows how much Wes needs to talk over the prophecy with someone rational.

Wes should have noticed Angel's reactions to Aubrey's story. He seems to feel both sides of it: the horror of a parent at his child being attacked, and also a renewed horror at his own past, turning and killing children. I know it's all developing a plot arc, but it seems unfair to Wes, who was always level-headed and not impulsive.

As for Sahjhan, "Would it impress you if I told you I invented daylight savings time?" No! Begone, demon, and take your wretched clock-changing-twice-a-year with you!
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Nov 30, 2016
Montauban (France)
but it seems unfair to Wes, who was always level-headed and not impulsive.
I agree but Maybe it’s not so out of character for Wesley to act like this considering his difficult relationship with his father. When it comes to father-son’s relationship he doesn’t seem to think properly to me. I think at his reaction with Bethany in season 2, he was a bit a dirk with her. Maybe this is a subject that resonates With him in a personal way and so he has tendancies to act extremely ? Is it possible ?
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