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Discussion of 3.17 "Forgiving" - Aired 4/15/2002 (WB-US)

Flannen

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Wesley lies alone, bleeding to death, and waiting for help which may not come. While Fred and Gunn try to solve the mystery of Wesley's disappearance, Angel searches feverishly for a way to rescue Connor from the Quortoth.

Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

PassionBecoming

Minuscule Redheaded One
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Sineya
Alright, I've been putting off watching this ep for long enough. My stomach is all twisted just thinking about it, but here we go...(and I have [MENTION=8885]nightshade[/MENTION] for moral support!)

-Ok, 5 seconds in and it's as bad as I thought it would be. The apartment wreckage with the baby stuff....oh, my goodness.
-I love that Gunn is always matter-of-fact even in awful situations.
-Oh, my gosh, he was laying right there?!?!?! This is awful.
-Someone needs to knock Justine into her place. Grrr.
-Aww, poor Fred. She knows what it's like and feels for Connor so much. I do, too. This is awful.
-Angel cussed!
-I hope Lilah gets her head ripped off. Evil.
-Angel's freakout about calling Cordy. :(
-Whoa, Angel got the bigwig. Oh, boy...
-"He's a human...marginally..." I love Lorne.
-I kind of like Lilah and Angel's conversations, though. They have a good banter rhythm.
-Secret floor is all white? Weird. Little girl = creepy.
-Oooh, I'm glad Fred and Gunn figured out the prophecy.
-Lilah messing with her higher-up. Heehee.
-Ooo Fred getting her slapping on. Excellent.
-Ooo, Siejohn (sp?) needs his bum thoroughly kicked.
-Ugh, Angel. Close one.
-Ok, Justine scored one point.
-I'm glad Angel calmed down and really talked to Lorne. But I still want Connor back. :(
-I know Wesley was trying to do what was right, but I still think he should have told the group. I think Angel would have done something to make sure Connor was safe. (Same as he did for Buffy.)
-Angel is talking all weird to Wes.
-WHAT THE EF?!!!!!!????????!
 

Jules

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Black Thorn
I dont get why Fred and Gunn werent more angry with Wes. He betrayed Angel in an unforgiveable way, but also he didnt share any of his research with them. He didnt ask them to help him find out what was really happening. In a way he was unbelieveably arrogant. He assumed he'd read the prophercy right, he assumed he had it all figured out. No matter how noble his intentions were, he was wrong and selfish not to confide in them. I can completely understand Angel's reaction to him in the hospital room.

I've not missed Cordy being in the last few episodes and I feel bad about that :(
 

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
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Sineya
I do kinda like how evil Angel is in this - how far he will go, how strong his love is for Connor. And then seeing what his need for revenge has done to another man and almost to Fred and Gunn. And later to Wes - I havent seen Angel this broken up, even after trapping Sajan he goes after Wes too.

I do love Lorne trying to make Angel feel better.

I dont know why Wes ever though he was correct, he has been incorrect on smaller things before! Fred wants to see the good and reason the whole situation away, explain everyones actions and their reasons and be understanding, but that is not how it works. Justine seems to be strung out on pain and loss.

- Im not your boyfriend, find someone else to smack you around. - Angel being blunt is always great. Justine has issues.

I feel like there is a real push pull with the characters right now. Angel seems strong on revenge, while Fred has turned meeker, Gunn is a dopey love full puppy right now and its blugh, I want to see him strong again, especially with Wes being out. I dont miss Cordy either. I dont feel bad about it. Lorne is great right now - he has a bigger role than I remembered. Heart type.
 

Give Us A Kiss

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Sineya
Poor Angel, he just lost his kid, my condolences :(

Fred, because of that stupid prophecy...

A cellphone from over 15 years ago, looks older than my first cellphone which was manufactured sometime in the late 90's.

Yes Gunn, Wes isn't who you think he is...

It was certainly a win for Holtz.

Is Gunn implying that Cordy's handwriting is illegible ??? o_O

How the hell is Wes still alive ??? o_O

Don't talk alternative facts, this was most certainly stealing :mad:

Angel, getting Connor back isn't worth it :(

Fred used sarcasm without the sarcastic tone, it's not the same...

Angel, what the hell are you doing ??? o_O

Where did the little girl come from ??? o_O

A man getting beheaded, you can show that on primetime TV ??? :eek:

Fredkins, not a good idea...or is it.

Looks like Fred and Gunn are relieved :D

Angel, don't continue, you will regret it.

The chair broke :eek:

Angel, remember Angelus ??? :rolleyes:

She has a country accent :eek:

A lot of things are bad for America...

So an abortion would have solved all of this ??? Something tells me that Angel wouldn't have allowed it...

Wes can't talk like he used to anymore :(

Angel, we don't choke people :mad:

Next time: Looks like Cordy is finally back.
 

AnthonyCordova

modulating between criticism and reconstruction
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Sineya
Sahjhan had Angel and Gunn squarely beat in that fight. The fight was highly entertaining.

Man, the end was hard to watch. Truthfully, I could understand the rage. It's that kind of rage that is scary too.
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
The ending!!!!!
That was some scary but understandable rage on angel's part.
I also am glad this is the last episode without Cordelia in S3 cause I missed her even more on this re watch .
Angel & Lilah are a great duo.
 

Mr Trick

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I dont get why Fred and Gunn werent more angry with Wes. He betrayed Angel in an unforgiveable way, but also he didnt share any of his research with them. He didnt ask them to help him find out what was really happening. In a way he was unbelieveably arrogant. He assumed he'd read the prophercy right, he assumed he had it all figured out. No matter how noble his intentions were, he was wrong and selfish not to confide in them. I can completely understand Angel's reaction to him in the hospital room.

I've not missed Cordy being in the last few episodes and I feel bad about that :(

I think it was more a case of them processing things. Plus not having the emotionally bond to Connor Angel has they wanted to get all the facts first. Fred especially was strong in her belief that Wesley wouldn't do it without good reason. I guess Wes not sharing his research with anybody is maybe the one thing I don't get about his actions.

BTW I do kinda find the end and Angel's, "You're a dead man Price, a dead man, DEADDD!!!" pretty funny! Okay, you made your point Angel...;)
 

Stake fodder

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It's interesting that several times in this and the last episode, characters say that Connor's "gone for good." That is an idiom that means 'permanently,' but of course, it's not for Connor's good, so it's a clever choice of words.

Linwood Murrow, yet another W&H employee with the initials L.M. I think it's the fourth so far. I did enjoy Angel letting him fall down the stairs.

"I don't want to ruin Cordelia's holiday." Um, what? I'm wondering why Charisma Carpenter was clearly being written out of the show at this time, but better not to mention her at all than have ridiculous lines like that.

The White Room is intriguing. Is that little girl one of the Senior Partners in disguise?

I think we are supposed to feel some sympathy for Justine, with the loss of her sister and then betrayal by Holtz. I don't know if it's just the actress, but I just find her an annoying pest.

Sahjhan, however, is truly evil, and yet I enjoy his wry sense of humor. "Buddy cop summer release", lol. It does seem contrived that he can travel through time at will, yet couldn't get Holtz to the present well before Connor's birth, or even conception. At least we finally know what his game is.

I can't believe Fred defending Wesley, saying that "it was the only thing he could do," and he had "good reasons." Not really! He could have done a lot of other things, like talking over his concerns to anybody besides Holtz. I cheered a bit when Angel tried to suffocate him. I don't want Wes to die - I (used to?) like his character - but I'm aghast that Fred and Gunn expect Angel to forgive him so easily, and also that they have so little outrage themselves.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Never noticed the LM initial thing thanks. Sahjhan is funny I agree. He's a favorite baddie of mine

Antho

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but I'm aghast that Fred and Gunn expect Angel to forgive him so easily,
Agreed with you but just a question :
Shoudn’t a character like Angel, based on forgiveness, and who evoluates around the notion of redemption, be able to forgive quickly than normal people ? With all his experience in that subject he should be more « armed » and I guess ready to forgive easily.
 

Stake fodder

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Agreed with you but just a question :
Shoudn’t a character like Angel, based on forgiveness, and who evoluates around the notion of redemption, be able to forgive quickly than normal people ? With all his experience in that subject he should be more « armed » and I guess ready to forgive easily.
I agree that you'd be right in normal circumstances, but he has a natural blind spot when it comes to his son. And as I said on the previous thread, the very fact that he trusted Wes so much makes his sense of betrayal all the greater.

Angel never even tries to justify himself to Holtz, never tells him he has a soul. I think that's because Angel understands Holtz's rage at him, and knows he deserves it. He knows that it is for Holtz to choose to forgive him or not, and he's not going to try to make excuses or plead his case. Contrast Wes's self-pity with that. Also, it's been about a week or so, and Fred thinks all should be forgiven? That's just kinda nuts, in my opinion. I'm sure Angel will get over it, though, and so will I. :)

ETA: It's not like people on BtVS don't do things almost as bad, and they immediately get forgiven!
 
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