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Discussion of 3.20 "A New World" - Aired 5/6/2002 (WB-US)

Flannen

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Angel's son Connor is brought back from the Hell dimension a feral teenage warrior, and is hellbent on vengeance against his father for Angel's bloody past. When he fails, the confused teen escapes to the mean streets of L.A. Determined to set things straight, Angel searches for his son, who in the interim befriends a troubled but kind homeless girl. Meanwhile, the dimensional rift through which the young man traveled continues to cause trouble at the hotel.

Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

wickedtiger86

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Sineya
Angel just about broke my heart here.

Standing there, begging Conner not to run from him. Tell him that he wants to know everything about his life. He's so vulnerable . . .and raw.

It's very moving and incredibly painful . . . and I love it.

Darn Joss and his awesomeness.
 
PassionBecoming
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PassionBecoming

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-Wow, no idea what's happening right now! Is Connor ticked because Angel couldn't save him? I don't get it...
-Connor reminds me of Blade. He's a vampire that can go out in the daylight. Huh.
-The bus scene was intensely bad.
-Lilah showing up at Wesley's. Not a huge surprise. Glad he told her to stuff it. I wonder what the book has in store, though. It can't be for nothing.
-Heehee. Lorne said "handsy". :D
-Loved Connor kicking the drug lord's arse. Excellent.
-Cordy and Groo are so awkward together. They need a rhythm! Glad she's making it clear that she's only interested in Groo. Aww. Ooo, except no canoodling in front of the portal!
-Connor checkingout the bra. Haha. How convenient there are a bunch of clothes laying around. ;) He is going to have one heck of a sugar rush after eating all that processed crap!
-So...he thinks Angel is evil??
-Connor, no hanky panky, mister!! Bad idea, fairly sure.
-Oh, no, Sunny. :( So sad. Oi, Angel, bad timing.
-Father/son bonding time, I guess. Connor obviously needs a little discipline in his life! Glad Angel's daddy skills are still sharp. Well, as sharp as they ever were. Aww, no more Connor? :(
-"These things usually have a mate" Eesh.
-Oh, great, Holtz has been feeding him lies for years and years. Wonderful. But still, bad attitude.
-Love the blue-haired lady! "Sometimes I get a little schmutz in my eye."
-Well, they make a good father-son fighting team, anyway.
-What kind of drug dealer uses a revolver??
-Ugh, Connor better appreciate that shotgun blast Angel took for him. Sheesh.
-Glad Angel decided to give him some space. Probably the best route at the moment.
-Flipping Holtz again?! I wish he would just get eaten by a demon or something already. So, Connor is going to be all bent on killing Angel and not knowing the full story. Great.

I miss baby Connor. :(
 

Taake

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Flipping Holtz again?! I wish he would just get eaten by a demon or something already.

Lol, exactly my thoughts when I watch these, I'm just like go away Holtz! Just go away, you bitter bitter man.
 

Jules

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Poor Angel, I felt so sorry for him, especially when Connor tells him to call him Steven. I also feel a little bad for Connor, he gets back from a hell dimension and he gets to see all the worse cases of humanity, especially when Sunny dies. I also cant believe that his first day back and he's kissing the first girl he meets! I love that Angel protected Connor and Connor seemed to realise that Angel wasnt all bad.

I liked the slow motion that they used for the fight scenes.
 
K
kittenpoker
I agree with every word!

AnthonyCordova

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Is it just me, or is Angel's inability to speak precisely what he feels kind of bothersome? I've been noticing it since his days on Buffy. His words always seem to fail him. He never quite says what I think he means to say right, and then the people he was speaking to walk off with the wrong impression of things. It's not always easy to express clearly what you are thinking and feeling, but Angel is particularly bad at that. When he was talking to Connor in the abandoned motel for homeless people, I kept thinking man, if I were Angel I would say things so differently. It reminds me of a paper I wrote for a class in school once about the tragedy of the failure of communication. Sometimes we fail to be understood by another person not because it isn't possible to be understood, but rather because we fail to say the right words to be understood.

And I think I like Connor actually. He has some nobility to him. And the actor is good too, at least so far.
 

Charmander

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it's funny how Gunn called Connor Peter Pan, that's just what I was thinking...

I think Gunn should be the one more on Wesley's side considering Wes forgave him for not telling him that he knew about what his street gang were up to. But then again maybe he's still bitter about Wesley's angry talk to him.

Poor Sunny. I guess it shows the harsh reality of drugs and homelessness.

I agree that Holtz is just super annoying now.
 
Mr Trick
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Peter Pan-Mixed Mad Max, ha!

Carrie Hopewell

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Let's take a minute to reflect on how underrated this episode is. It's probably my second favorite season 3 episode (second to Lullaby). Jeffrey Bell wrote the episode, but Tim Minear directed it (and you can tell it's TM's work, because it's amazing! I have a fan-girl crush on Tim Minear's work, sorry).

- I love the opening sequence. Even though you can see David and Vicent's doubles, the fighting scenes are still great. Love the moment when Connor and Angel are back to back fighting. When Angel looks into Connor's eyes and recognizes his son, Connor's vulnerability and fear is powerful, as is Angel running outside in broad daylight (thankfully Groo and Gunn have fast reflexes). The direction and the music really make the scene.

- Wesley and Lilah's brief scenes are great. I don't know why Wes would have jeans at hand if he doesn't wear them, and I believe Wesley's bad boy look is somewhat contrived in this season. Still, Lilah is perfectly in character and I love how she constantly pushes against the characters' occasional tendency to indulge in self-righteousness (comes with the job I guess): "The worst spot in hell is reserved for those who betray. So, don't pretend you're too good to work for us.".

- I like Groo quite a lot in this episode. As someone who always went along with the princess's wishes, he has enough self-respect to question their relationship and Cordelia's relationship with Angel. He pretty much says what I'm thinking in this episode. I don't buy Cordy falling in love with Angel one bit and she seemed in love with Groo initially, but what I find truly horrifying is how she only cares about Angel and how he is forcibly brought up in every conversation Groo and Cordy have. Cordelia deserved a relationship that didn't end in a betrayal (Xander) or as a plot device (an obstacle to Cangel).

- I adore Connor in this episode and the writers did a wonderful job at introducing the poor boy to the worst of humanity! I felt so sad for him and for Sunny. I found all his scenes with her heartwarming: her feeding him and his wonder at the taste of chocolate (reminded me of Angel in IWRY), her gentleness and acceptance of his quiet and odd way of being, their kiss. Connor has a lot of empathy for humans considering he didn't grow up surrounded by them. I love how concerned he is when he asks Sunny if she's sad. Sunny is very right about not everyone being fit to be a parent. And then Sunny dies..ugh...

- I don't like how Connor is seen as a threat to everyone. When Gunn is saying that Connor could be dangerous, there's a cut to Groo and Cordy passed out on the ground. This is something which happens a lot. Connor is a teenager who grew up in a violent hell dimension, but no one has much sympathy for him. Fred tasing Connor and Faith kicking his ass are seen as cool. Regardless of what he has done, he is still a teenage boy. Wesley kidnapped baby Connor, but when Angel tried to smother him everyone was opposed to it; yet, when Connor is beaten up, we're supposed to cheer?

- Every scene with Angel and Connor is wonderfully intense. It's really well acted and written: Angel's desperation and hope vs. Connor's confusion. I do feel like Angel is unnecessarily rough around Connor, but Connor is super strong and determined to escape, and Angel is on the edge so he's too aggressive at times (he apologizes once in the bathroom).

-Go Groo: "Yes. We must always consider Angel. Angel is our leader. We must obey his wishes.". Yeah Cordelia, Angel's never wrong and who gives a damn about Wesley?

- Angel's pained rant is terrific:

Angel: "Look - I know we haven't gotten off to a great start here, but if we can just - take a minute. - That'd be good. - Please, just...Don't run away from me, alright? I lost you once already. - There's just - there's just so much I wanna know, so much I need to know. - Okay? You been okay? I mean - what was it like there? - Did you have any friends? - Okay, I mean, not friends. It's not like you were at summer camp. I mean, you were stuck in a - hell dimension. - Connor - I'm so sorry. I tried to get you back. I did. I tried to come after you. I would have done anything. I just... I just... I couldn't find a way in."

Connor: "I found a way out."

Angel: "Yeah. - You did. - You sure did. - I should've - I should've tried harder. I - I shouldn't 've quit. But you're back. And-and - and that's what's important, you know? You-you came back to me. I wanna know everything, son. I wanna know everything. Everything about you, you know, what your life's been like? You - must have a million questions."

I think David is excellent as a father - some of his best acting happens with Connor. Also, I love how that scene was shot (with the camera circling Angel and Connor).

- Angel takes a bullet for Connor and he's so confused... Connor is starting to believe that Angel loves him and he feels something too, but Holtz did a number on him.

It's probably obvious by now that I love Angel/Connor. It's my favorite of Angel's relationships on AtS (number one is Bangel if we consider the whole Buffyverse).
 

GraceK

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Let's take a minute to reflect on how underrated this episode is. It's probably my second favorite season 3 episode (second to Lullaby). Jeffrey Bell wrote the episode, but Tim Minear directed it (and you can tell it's TM's work, because it's amazing! I have a fan-girl crush on Tim Minear's work, sorry).

- I love the opening sequence. Even though you can see David and Vicent's doubles, the fighting scenes are still great. Love the moment when Connor and Angel are back to back fighting. When Angel looks into Connor's eyes and recognizes his son, Connor's vulnerability and fear is powerful, as is Angel running outside in broad daylight (thankfully Groo and Gunn have fast reflexes). The direction and the music really make the scene.

- Wesley and Lilah's brief scenes are great. I don't know why Wes would have jeans at hand if he doesn't wear them, and I believe Wesley's bad boy look is somewhat contrived in this season. Still, Lilah is perfectly in character and I love how she constantly pushes against the characters' occasional tendency to indulge in self-righteousness (comes with the job I guess): "The worst spot in hell is reserved for those who betray. So, don't pretend you're too good to work for us.".

- I like Groo quite a lot in this episode. As someone who always went along with the princess's wishes, he has enough self-respect to question their relationship and Cordelia's relationship with Angel. He pretty much says what I'm thinking in this episode. I don't buy Cordy falling in love with Angel one bit and she seemed in love with Groo initially, but what I find truly horrifying is how she only cares about Angel and how he is forcibly brought up in every conversation Groo and Cordy have. Cordelia deserved a relationship that didn't end in a betrayal (Xander) or as a plot device (an obstacle to Cangel).

- I adore Connor in this episode and the writers did a wonderful job at introducing the poor boy to the worst of humanity! I felt so sad for him and for Sunny. I found all his scenes with her heartwarming: her feeding him and his wonder at the taste of chocolate (reminded me of Angel in IWRY), her gentleness and acceptance of his quiet and odd way of being, their kiss. Connor has a lot of empathy for humans considering he didn't grow up surrounded by them. I love how concerned he is when he asks Sunny if she's sad. Sunny is very right about not everyone being fit to be a parent. And then Sunny dies..ugh...

- I don't like how Connor is seen as a threat to everyone. When Gunn is saying that Connor could be dangerous, there's a cut to Groo and Cordy passed out on the ground. This is something which happens a lot. Connor is a teenager who grew up in a violent hell dimension, but no one has much sympathy for him. Fred tasing Connor and Faith kicking his ass are seen as cool. Regardless of what he has done, he is still a teenage boy. Wesley kidnapped baby Connor, but when Angel tried to smother him everyone was opposed to it; yet, when Connor is beaten up, we're supposed to cheer?

- Every scene with Angel and Connor is wonderfully intense. It's really well acted and written: Angel's desperation and hope vs. Connor's confusion. I do feel like Angel is unnecessarily rough around Connor, but Connor is super strong and determined to escape, and Angel is on the edge so he's too aggressive at times (he apologizes once in the bathroom).

-Go Groo: "Yes. We must always consider Angel. Angel is our leader. We must obey his wishes.". Yeah Cordelia, Angel's never wrong and who gives a damn about Wesley?

- Angel's pained rant is terrific:

Angel: "Look - I know we haven't gotten off to a great start here, but if we can just - take a minute. - That'd be good. - Please, just...Don't run away from me, alright? I lost you once already. - There's just - there's just so much I wanna know, so much I need to know. - Okay? You been okay? I mean - what was it like there? - Did you have any friends? - Okay, I mean, not friends. It's not like you were at summer camp. I mean, you were stuck in a - hell dimension. - Connor - I'm so sorry. I tried to get you back. I did. I tried to come after you. I would have done anything. I just... I just... I couldn't find a way in."

Connor: "I found a way out."

Angel: "Yeah. - You did. - You sure did. - I should've - I should've tried harder. I - I shouldn't 've quit. But you're back. And-and - and that's what's important, you know? You-you came back to me. I wanna know everything, son. I wanna know everything. Everything about you, you know, what your life's been like? You - must have a million questions."

I think David is excellent as a father - some of his best acting happens with Connor. Also, I love how that scene was shot (with the camera circling Angel and Connor).

- Angel takes a bullet for Connor and he's so confused... Connor is starting to believe that Angel loves him and he feels something too, but Holtz did a number on him.

It's probably obvious by now that I love Angel/Connor. It's my favorite of Angel's relationships on AtS (number one is Bangel if we consider the whole Buffyverse).

Not surprisingly I agree with all of this, which is usually the case with your posts :) I never understood the hate Connor gets (from the fans, yes, I can see why kinda, since Angel is the protagonist and we are on his side) but the hate he gets from the other characters is really upsetting to me. They have endless patience for angel, dark angel, Angelus, dark Wesley and even for FakeCordy but no...Connor is irredeemable. They didn't trust him before he was born, and as a teenager they have no sympathy. He's gotten the short end of the stick since he was an infant and has known nothing but betrayel, pain and despair ...he's literally been manipulated since he was a baby by everyone ...then Cordelia finished the job :( and he is good underneath it all....at his core I believe he is a good soul, he's just tragic
 

Carrie Hopewell

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Not surprisingly I agree with all of this, which is usually the case with your posts :)

Thank you :)

I never understood the hate Connor gets (from the fans, yes, I can see why kinda, since Angel is the protagonist and we are on his side) but the hate he gets from the other characters is really upsetting to me.

The lack of sympathy regarding Connor, coming from the fans, the characters or even the writers themselves, imo, is because Connor is a teenager. A lot of his anger and bitterness, which is justified, is interpreted as angsty teen behavior, something to shrug off like it's no big deal. Teenagers often get the short end of the stick because any less than perfect behavior is said to be part of a phase, or brattiness or immaturity - instead of being age appropriate or signs of someone in pain. For example, anger, resentment, sadness and lower grades could be signs of a depression but parents aren't that likely to see it as such.

Angel's anger and broodiness is justified, valid and tolerated yet Connor's isn't. Wesley's behavior in seasons 4 and 5 is worse than Connor's, yet more understandable by the characters and the fans :(
 

GraceK

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Thank you :)



The lack of sympathy regarding Connor, coming from the fans, the characters or even the writers themselves, imo, is because Connor is a teenager. A lot of his anger and bitterness, which is justified, is interpreted as angsty teen behavior, something to shrug off like it's no big deal. Teenagers often get the short end of the stick because any less than perfect behavior is said to be part of a phase, or brattiness or immaturity - instead of being age appropriate or signs of someone in pain. For example, anger, resentment, sadness and lower grades could be signs of a depression but parents aren't that likely to see it as such.

Angel's anger and broodiness is justified, valid and tolerated yet Connor's isn't. Wesley's behavior in seasons 4 and 5 is worse than Connor's, yet more understandable by the characters and the fans :(

For real...what really makes my blood boil is how Angel treats Connor over the Cordelia incident. He acts like a jealous ass, instead of being furious that his friend took advantage of his emotionally vulnerable SON. I would have ripped her hair out if that was my son. And that wasn't even a red flag for Angel..for all that he claimed to "love" her , he didn't realize that real Cordelia would never have done such s thing??? And no one else seems to either!! Lol off topic sorry it's just a sensitive subject...my heart bleeds for Connor even when he's at his most hateable lol...on topic, I love them both in this episode...their exchanges are so powerful filled With emotion....you can sense how vulnerable and angry Connor is.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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For real...what really makes my blood boil is how Angel treats Connor over the Cordelia incident. He acts like a jealous ass, instead of being furious that his friend took advantage of his emotionally vulnerable SON. I would have ripped her hair out if that was my son. And that wasn't even a red flag for Angel..for all that he claimed to "love" her , he didn't realize that real Cordelia would never have done such s thing??? And no one else seems to either!! Lol off topic sorry it's just a sensitive subject...my heart bleeds for Connor even when he's at his most hateable lol...on topic, I love them both in this episode...their exchanges are so powerful filled With emotion....you can sense how vulnerable and angry Connor is.

Oh yeah, I'm totally there with you about Cordelia. It's like his feelings for her just blinded Angel completely. I don't know how it's possible for Angel to see Connor as the competition instead of his teenaged son who's being taken advantage of by Cordelia, yet Angel does... Imo, it was the time spent under water that created this perspective. Season 3 Angel would have taken Connor's side 100%, but after being underwater, blood deprived, stuck immobile for months, going insane with thoughts of a HEA with Cordy and his son, and scenarios of murdering his child too... that just messed with his head too much.

I think Angel harbored some resentment over what Connor did to him and thought that getting Cordy would save him in a way, would make one thing go right. Connor was an obstacle to what he wanted. This line of thinking was selfish and irrational, but it faded with time. I think Angel thought of himself as in love with Cordy too, but the Angelus arc fixed things. First of all, in his perfect happiness fantasy, Angel said Buffy's name instead of Cordelia. Secondly, Angelus exposed everyone's secrets and, as an "outsider", offered everyone much needed perspective. He talked about how Connor was sleeping with his "mother", spoke of Cordelia as if she meant nothing to Angelus and spoke of Buffy more fondly - which are definitely indicators of how Angel feels also - and Angelus made everyone perfectly aware of how pathetic and screwed up things were.
After Orpheus, Angel decides to unite everyone again and becomes a lot more focused on the Big Bad at hands. It's interesting that in Ground State (episode 2) Gwen asks Angel if he loves Cordy and he says yes, but in Inside Out (episode 17, after Angelus) when Skip is talking about the woman Angel loves, Angel can only bring himself to say "the woman I...". To me, there was a definite shift in perspective and priorities after Angelus. He started fighting a lot more for his son after, which meant giving up on his idea of the perfect family, from the Deep Down hallucination, and giving Connor a perfect family (sans Angel) instead, in Home.

All of this to say that I forgive Angel, but can't excuse his behavior - only try to understand it...

Oh, and I agree, the Angel and Connor scenes in A New World are really powerful. The actors have good chemistry. Their scenes in Home and Origin are amazing too.
 

GraceK

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Oh yeah, I'm totally there with you about Cordelia. It's like his feelings for her just blinded Angel completely. I don't know how it's possible for Angel to see Connor as the competition instead of his teenaged son who's being taken advantage of by Cordelia, yet Angel does... Imo, it was the time spent under water that created this perspective. Season 3 Angel would have taken Connor's side 100%, but after being underwater, blood deprived, stuck immobile for months, going insane with thoughts of a HEA with Cordy and his son, and scenarios of murdering his child too... that just messed with his head too much.

I think Angel harbored some resentment over what Connor did to him and thought that getting Cordy would save him in a way, would make one thing go right. Connor was an obstacle to what he wanted. This line of thinking was selfish and irrational, but it faded with time. I think Angel thought of himself as in love with Cordy too, but the Angelus arc fixed things. First of all, in his perfect happiness fantasy, Angel said Buffy's name instead of Cordelia. Secondly, Angelus exposed everyone's secrets and, as an "outsider", offered everyone much needed perspective. He talked about how Connor was sleeping with his "mother", spoke of Cordelia as if she meant nothing to Angelus and spoke of Buffy more fondly - which are definitely indicators of how Angel feels also - and Angelus made everyone perfectly aware of how pathetic and screwed up things were.
After Orpheus, Angel decides to unite everyone again and becomes a lot more focused on the Big Bad at hands. It's interesting that in Ground State (episode 2) Gwen asks Angel if he loves Cordy and he says yes, but in Inside Out (episode 17, after Angelus) when Skip is talking about the woman Angel loves, Angel can only bring himself to say "the woman I...". To me, there was a definite shift in perspective and priorities after Angelus. He started fighting a lot more for his son after, which meant giving up on his idea of the perfect family, from the Deep Down hallucination, and giving Connor a perfect family (sans Angel) instead, in Home.

All of this to say that I forgive Angel, but can't excuse his behavior - only try to understand it...

Oh, and I agree, the Angel and Connor scenes in A New World are really powerful. The actors have good chemistry. Their scenes in Home and Origin are amazing too.

You know, thank you for that insight. From that perspective I feel a lot better about Angel.it makes sense:) their scenes together one on one are actually always really good...I especially loved them in benediction play fighting in the alley,,,Holtz truly was monstrous to take that away from Connor :( I understand it from Holtzs vengeance side, but it's really horrific to me that he can raise a baby as his son and purposely destroy his chance at happiness just to get one over on an enemy.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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You know, thank you for that insight. From that perspective I feel a lot better about Angel.it makes sense:)

You're welcome. I'm always here to defend or explain Angel (from my biased perspective of course)!

their scenes together one on one are actually always really good...I especially loved them in benediction play fighting in the alley

I agree. Isn't that scene the cutest though?? When Connor smiles and Angel is all "It's good to know you can do that" and then they play-fight... :D My adorable babies...

I understand it from Holtzs vengeance side, but it's really horrific to me that he can raise a baby as his son and purposely destroy his chance at happiness just to get one over on an enemy.

I don't see Holtz as a good guy fundamentally. That kind of coldness and selfishness can't just be explained by grief. Imo, he may have killed vampires, but he wasn't good like Buffy. Just a guy who thought it was noble to track down vampires and defend his town. Angel and Darla killing his family destroyed him, but a lot of his actions - like what he did to Connor - can't be explained by grief and revenge. His grief brought out a nasty side of him that was already there, I think. Does that make sense?
 

GraceK

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You're welcome. I'm always here to defend or explain Angel (from my biased perspective of course)!



I agree. Isn't that scene the cutest though?? When Connor smiles and Angel is all "It's good to know you can do that" and then they play-fight... :D My adorable babies...



I don't see Holtz as a good guy fundamentally. That kind of coldness and selfishness can't just be explained by grief. Imo, he may have killed vampires, but he wasn't good like Buffy. Just a guy who thought it was noble to track down vampires and defend his town. Angel and Darla killing his family destroyed him, but a lot of his actions - like what he did to Connor - can't be explained by grief and revenge. His grief brought out a nasty side of him that was already there, I think. Does that make sense?

It makes total sense.! I just differ slightly because I feel that Holtz was a good guy. It takes a certain cold personality sure to do what he did, but I saw him as honorable. And you could see the way he sang to his children there was softness there. I think he truly loved his family and their death is what pushes him over the edge. Especially having to kill his daughter...I think had he just been able to kill Darla and Angelus in his lifetime he would maybe have found some sense of justice or peace. But he wasn't able to and it became an obsession ..then he waits 200 years and spends 17 more in a hell dimension where it's literally blind hatred that keeps him and Connor alive. After all of that I can see how it can change a person. What sticks to me is that he already won by that point...Connor loved him, and Angel lost out on raising him. Going that extra mile to set Angel up and breed more hatred in his surrogate son is just mind boggling to me...but I guess that's all he had left ,it was a like a living breathing entity at that point.

Oh but screw Justine man she is just the worst all around and I can't muster any sympathy or understanding. I wanted her to die so bad!! Lol
 

Carrie Hopewell

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I just differ slightly because I feel that Holtz was a good guy. It takes a certain cold personality sure to do what he did, but I saw him as honorable. And you could see the way he sang to his children there was softness there. I think he truly loved his family and their death is what pushes him over the edge. Especially having to kill his daughter...I think had he just been able to kill Darla and Angelus in his lifetime he would maybe have found some sense of justice or peace. But he wasn't able to and it became an obsession ..then he waits 200 years and spends 17 more in a hell dimension where it's literally blind hatred that keeps him and Connor alive. After all of that I can see how it can change a person.

I agree. I think he used to be a good person and I know he loved his children, but look at Buffy and compared her to Holtz. Buffy had to kill Angel, she had to watch her mom die and then die herself...and she never becomes as dark as Holtz. That thirst for revenge isn't natural. There was something there inside of Holtz - maybe a certain darkness - that made him cope so badly with what happened to him.

After he spent all that time in the hell dimension with just his hatred and fantasies of killing Angel keeping him alive, he was too far gone...

What sticks to me is that he already won by that point...Connor loved him, and Angel lost out on raising him. Going that extra mile to set Angel up and breed more hatred in his surrogate son is just mind boggling to me...but I guess that's all he had left ,it was a like a living breathing entity at that point.

Yeah, like I said, his fantasies of killing Angel sustained him in Quor'toth and he needed to actualize them. In his mind, seeing as he kept Angel's son alive, taking him away wasn't enough. He had promised himself that he would kill Angelus and he had to, even after realizing he wouldn't find any peace or justice.
 
Oh but screw Justine man she is just the worst all around and I can't muster any sympathy or understanding. I wanted her to die so bad!! Lol

I have a bit more sympathy toward her. She lost her sister and was manipulated by Holtz too. She killed him!

Still, slitting Wesley's throat because of Holtz is a bit o_O
 

GraceK

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I agree. I think he used to be a good person and I know he loved his children, but look at Buffy and compared her to Holtz. Buffy had to kill Angel, she had to watch her mom die and then die herself...and she never becomes as dark as Holtz. That thirst for revenge isn't natural. There was something there inside of Holtz - maybe a certain darkness - that made him cope so badly with what happened to him.

After he spent all that time in the hell dimension with just his hatred and fantasies of killing Angel keeping him alive, he was too far gone...



Yeah, like I said, his fantasies of killing Angel sustained him in Quor'toth and he needed to actualize them. In his mind, seeing as he kept Angel's son alive, taking him away wasn't enough. He had promised himself that he would kill Angelus and he had to, even after realizing he wouldn't find any peace or justice.
 


I have a bit more sympathy toward her. She lost her sister and was manipulated by Holtz too. She killed him!

Still, slitting Wesley's throat because of Holtz is a bit o_O

Well, in my opinion no one can be compared to Buffy. :) lol but your right, there had to be something already pretty dark deep down that caused him to react on such extreme ways. Was he also a religious fanatic? Cause I got that impression from certain things he said .

As for Justine, I'm sorry I just don't care about her at all. So she lost her sister,,,cry me a river. So many people have gone through so much worse in the Buffyverse. Maybe if the actress had played her with some layers or empathy, it might have made a difference...but she was so unlikeable that she wasn't even a fun villain. At least you could feel for Holtz...there was depth there. Even Sajhann was hilarious...and Lilah , terrible as she is, is always gold. Justine is such a caricature of an angry person who has nothing redeeming about her. How many times has Angel saved her life at this point? And she manipulates Connor for no other reason than blind loyalty to a crazy person. She doesn't care about how many innocent people she hurts. But again, maybe it really was just the actress....she just played her terribly.
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
2,753
Sineya
Why is everything in slow motion ??? o_O

What was Holtz telling Connor about Angel ??? because Connor hates him...

The father almost killed the son...

Groo stands out like a sore thumb in AI
...

Lilah is not a vampire, she doesn't need to be invited in...:rolleyes:

Nine levels of hell ??? that makes sense :)

Connor doesn't resemble Robin Hood in any way...

My chammy suit :p

Connor is starting fights, not good...

11 days and nights ??? That's a long time...

Why is Groo referring to himself in third person ??? o_O

Mexico is nothing compared to where Connor comes from...

Bastards or cops, I'll take the cops, they have way more experience dealing with them.

Tell Connor the truth about the drugs in your little baggie.

Police are here, looks like Connor knows quite a bit of self defense...

She died of a heroine overdose, poor Connor :(

Angel :eek:

Steven ??? o_O

Wes can help with cases like this, I'm not saying he should get a pass but AI without him feels very different, and not in a good way :(

Holtz is not your father...:rolleyes:

Goggles ??? o_O

Angel is shot, but it doesn't kill him, again.

Holtz has aged quite a bit...

Next time: More Holtz and Connor...
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Messages
2,804
Age
23
Location
Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Sineya
I just love love love Connor.
His debut makes him an interesting & complex character & I love every moment.
Cordy and Groo are cute but Cangel is my fav but I don't mind watching Cordy & Groo scenes haha.
The Angel/Connor dynamic I love even more on the re watch. Angel is such a great dad.
Wesley is looking hot now! Yay! Also I just adore Lilah.
Connor naked this episode was my fav part :p
But seriously hate Holtz!
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
15,528
Age
41
Location
London, UK
Connor's debut isn't bad I guess, but the actor just isn't up to the gig from the word go. One thing I thought re-watching this is they cast someone who is too pretty considering his character and arc. That and he shows up looking like a Mad Max wannabe;)

Probably Holtz return is the weakest part of his arc, but the way he exits was nicely done. Shame it had to involve Justine:p
 
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