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Discussion of 4.01 "Deep Down" - Aired 10/6/2002 (WB-US)

Flannen

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Angel and Cordelia are still missing. Gunn and Fred are still looking for them, but unbeknowist to them, one answer has been living with them all along -- Connor. Meanwhile, Wesley continues his relationship with Lilah and searches for a way to redeem himself.
Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

Jules

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The opening scene was just too good to be true, it was nice that Wesley was part of the fantasy though. I didnt enjoy seeing Angel and Cordy all loved up :( Its so sad seeing Angel all starved and I liked how the fantasy portrayed that.

The scene with Fred and Gunn started to remind me of the Scoobies at the beginning of Season 3, when they were trying to slay without Buffy. I was shocked when Connor showed up to save the day! He's so very manipulative! Also Fred ''chasing up dead ends'' reminded me of when Giles went looking for Buffy again in Season 3.

I wondered if the next scene with Cordy and Angel was actually Cordy visiting him in a vision until he bit her. The tension building between Fred and Gunn is so sad to watch, especially because its over Wesley. Wesley always seems to be the thorn in their relationship and while I've never been a Gunn/Fred fan its still sad to watch that happen to them. Dark Wesley looks very sexy. I cant believe he kept Justine in his closet. I'm glad he's the one looking for Angel.

Connor is so crazy and evil, he's learnt a lot from Holtz, staging the ''attack'' by the vamp so he could explain why he staked her. Poor Angel, all his daydreams end with him killing the people he loves the most, although Connor does deserve to have his neck snaped.

I cant believe Lorne wasnt more concrened about where Cordy and Angel were. I would have thought he would have come back to LA as soon as he'd heard.

I really wanted Angel to feed off Justine, it would have been nice poetic justice.

The Fred/Gunn/Connor family relationship is good to watch. Fred is the comforting mother, and Connor and Gunn have the controversial father/son relationship. Its a shame that they all seem to be getting along until Connor is reminded that he's Angel's son.

I felt sorry for Wes after he rescused Angel and Angel said he wanted to kill him, thinking he was Connor. The fact that Wes was willing to feed Angel his blood just goes to show how much he wants Angel's forgiveness.

I was shocked that sweet Fred was the one to attack Connor, although she seems to be the one he betrayed and hurt the most. I enjoyed the confrontation between Connor and Angel, it was so tense. I loved when Angel said ''But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective''

It was a nice season opener.
 

Taake

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I was shocked that sweet Fred was the one to attack Connor, although she seems to be the one he betrayed and hurt the most. I enjoyed the confrontation between Connor and Angel, it was so tense. I loved when Angel said ''But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective''
These are my favorite parts of this episode, especially this "...so a few months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective."

Connor's and Angel' face off is amazing simply, and this... "We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. " Angel really knows how to rule the house so to speak.
 
PassionBecoming
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PassionBecoming

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-Mmm, food...
-Aww, whole gang. All happy and together. Angel and Cordelia almost kissing kinda freaked me out a bit. Though, where is this coming from? Angel imagining things from his box?
-Yup. Aw, sad. :( Ugh, seeing Angel all icky and helpless is just wrong!
-Connor is in the credits?? Does this mean I'm stuck with him for the duration of the series?! Argh another Dawn...
-Ooo, I love watching Fred and Gunn fight together!! They have rhythmn. Reminds me of when Buffy and Riley would patrol together. And Fred used the stake-on-a-spring!!
-Why on earth is Connor still hanging around them? Simply because he has nowhere to go? Is he going to kill them, too? He needs to be smacked up.
-Fred and Gunn parenting. Hahahaha.
-Nope, I can't get onto the Cangel ship. It still just seems unnatural to me or something. Not to mention they are insanely melodramatic and cheesy in Angel's dreams. :p
-Wesley and Lilah again?!?! What the h?? And I still don't get why Wesley has such a chip on his shoulder. Yeah, they didn't come around you because you did something insanely stupid. You should be the one who is sorry. And, by the way, what does Wesley do for money these days?
-Oh, wow, didn't see that one coming. Funny things some guys keep in their closests. But also, yay! Kick her a**, Sea Bass!
-Why would he be letting Justine wander the boat freely? Doesn't seem like a smart move. Or maybe he has a handle on it.
-Gotta love a good Conan reference.
-Oi, these dreams Angel is having are deeply disturbing.
-"The Powers That Screw You". Ah, Fred. Heehee.
-I'm confused as why Justine is helping find Angel. She could have just swam away or said it wasn't the box. Consider me confuzzled. Or maybe deep down she knew she made a mistake. Hmm.
-Hallucination Lorne is hilarious. :D
-Lilah is such a wench, but still awesome. Best staff meeting ever.
-Yay! Zap him again Fred! What a monster.
-Wesley, just stay and hug it out!!
-"Sit. Down." I freaking love Angel.
-Buffy reference!! Love those. :)
-Excellent champion speech.
-So...Cordy is basically a supernova or what?
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
Wesley didn't do anything stupid,he did something extremely brave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PassionBecoming

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[MENTION=12570]Wesley Pryce[/MENTION]: Do you think stealing Connor as a baby without telling anyone else in the group what was going on was brave? Because I think it was a terrible decision.
 
janas
janas
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AnthonyCordova

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This was by far my favorite season opener for AtS. I agree with others that the hallucination sequences were incredible. There was so much to like about this episode, from the beginning to the end. And the writing (particularly the dialogue) was so tight. The pacing for the episode was just right too.

I like what they are doing with Wesley. These recent developments over the last several episodes have been painful but it really opens up some fresh territory for some interesting development of his character and story. I hope they capitalize on it. And Lilah is moving up in the world, how interesting. Her character has been essentially the same thing for awhile now...it might be nice to see some changes (of some kind, I'm not sure what) to her too as a result of becoming the new 'boss'.

And did anyone else feel this episode had a strong cinematic feel to it? It felt like a short movie...a good one. Everything was just efficient; it was an economy of resources and effort, just like a well made movie feels. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I really sensed a difference between this episode and every other Angel episode in this specific way. And the lighting and camera work (and maybe the types of cameras?) felt different too. Maybe that contributed to the movie feeling of it all.
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
I love reading your comments because I just think "Wait until he watches ____!" :)

Charmander

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I wish Wes had stuck Justine in the box and thrown it back in the sea. Just kidding; a bit too morbid even for me. I don't like her though or see any way for her to amend her actions.

Indefinite brain damage from not drinking blood for a long time? Interesting. It'd really suck to be a vampire!

Oh wow. I turned away during that decapitation scene to look at something and turned back to see Linwood's head rolling down the table. D: Though admittedly there was something satisfying about that, and it was funny to see Gavin being put in his place and ordered to remove it by Lilah. :D

I hate how Connor is taking advantage over someone as sweet as Fred. I loved it when she got revenge on him!

I'm glad Angel got angry with Connor, since he has a habit of bottling things up and not letting people know his feelings.
 

bespangeled

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Do you think stealing Connor as a baby without telling anyone else in the group what was going on was brave? Because I think it was a terrible decision.
I think it was both. Wesley was cut off from his support team - both Angel and Cordelia. He didn't dare tell Angel his fears if he believed it was Angelus he was dealing with. Cordelia understood Angel and Angelus, so she knew the risks. Gunn and Fred were pretty much worthless in this situation and telling them could be extremely dangerous.

His big mistake was letting Holtz get in his head. But he truly did believe he was rescuing not only Connor but also Angel from having to deal with killing Connor. Yes, W&H put Connor's blood in his food but the point is that no one knew that. Angel was acting strange, including calling his son a snack. I see what Wes did was, in the long run both wrong and tragic. But I'm not sure what his other options were.
 

vellavu

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I don't like Angel's moral high ground speech to Connor. It feels wrong and I really don't know what he was thinking.

If he was pissed off and lost his mind, he wouldn't preach the "world and its champions" so coherently.

If he was sincere and the speech was for Connor, kicking him out after that seems to be a really good way to undermine your lecture. And what did Connor do actually? He was manipulated by Holtz to do the revenge, then he lied to cover things up, and killed vampires with Gunn/Fred every day. Almost everyone else in the show got away with much more terrible behaviors. Why so unforgiving in Connor's case? For gods sake he's a kid raised in a hell dimension with very serious problems in his brain. Angel's double standard to Faith and Connor was just... madness.

If he was sincere and the speech was actually for his team instead of Connor, well, did Fred/Gunn really need this at that time?

Also, the way of punishment was ridiculous and caused Connor's spiral breakdown. Angel can ground Connor like a normal parent does instead of choosing exact opposite. And what about hiring some mental therapists to do a 3-year healing? It's not as if they don't have money in S4.
 

PassionBecoming

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I think it was both. Wesley was cut off from his support team - both Angel and Cordelia. He didn't dare tell Angel his fears if he believed it was Angelus he was dealing with. Cordelia understood Angel and Angelus, so she knew the risks. Gunn and Fred were pretty much worthless in this situation and telling them could be extremely dangerous.

His big mistake was letting Holtz get in his head. But he truly did believe he was rescuing not only Connor but also Angel from having to deal with killing Connor. Yes, W&H put Connor's blood in his food but the point is that no one knew that. Angel was acting strange, including calling his son a snack. I see what Wes did was, in the long run both wrong and tragic. But I'm not sure what his other options were.
I still think he could/should have gone to at least Cordelia, Gunn, and/or Fred. Even if they couldn't "do" anything, they could have brainstormed a much better plan and watched each other's backs. The best option might have been for Wesley to take Connor and run, but at least he would have allies to be covering his tracks and slowing down anyone who might try to catch up to him. Yes, Angel was acting very strange, but to me that's more of a reason to communicate with each other. That's a big thing in both BtVS and AtS - the groups experience over and over again how keeping things from each other or trying to work alone generally doesn't work out so well, yet they do it over and over again. (I am finding this theme on SPN as I watch it as well. Just talk to each other, people!!!!)
 

Give Us A Kiss

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Thanksgiving...Angel's back :eek:

Wes is back too :eek:

Is this real ??? Got a feeling that this is just a dream...something feels fishy...

I was right :(

Poor Gunn, that's his truck :(

Smart Fred ;)

Connor, tell them about Angel...

It's been three months :(

Can anyone find Angel and take him out of that box ??? o_O

Fred has a point about Wes...

Eww :eek:

Wes is now soulless, just like Lilah...

Wes doesn't wear underwear ??? o_O

So Wes knows where Angel is ??? o_O

Wes has good reflexes :eek:

What's going on ??? :eek:

Does Connor have a suicide wish or something ??? o_O

Meanwhile at Lorne's whereabouts...

I think Fred and Gunn will do fine, they are handling it pretty well...

Wes may have found something :)

It's Angel :D

Angel :eek:

I won't be too surprised if he spent most of the last 3 months sleeping...

Gunn needs to learn how to control his temper a bit...

Wes :eek:

Lilah said sorry, did I hear it correctly ??? o_O

Ding dong the witch was beheaded :D

Connor deserved it...

Angel looks frail :(

Wes...:mad:

Angel, stick to your ground :)

May Connor think about what he did...

Next time: We meet Gwen Raiden.
 

Out for a walk

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So I am on season 4 now. This was a good season opener and I like Connor. He is a good character and better than Dawn in my opinion. I am ready for Wes to get back with AI, but I am glad he was there to help.
 

MarlieTheSlayer

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This is one of my all time favorite episodes. The only thing I didn't really like were the Cangel moments (so forced) and the final scene of a bored Cordelia (out of place), but other than that I think it is the perfect season opener.
Wesley his dark side is pretty disturbing, but also H-O-T ;) ''I'll take away your bucket'' - Screwed up, but still hilarious.

Angel his hallucinations are also interesting. My favorite is the one at the beginning (Wesley emerging out of the shadows was a nice touch) and the one where he snaps Connor's neck :eek:
The following line is so :(:(:(: Angel - "Life should be beautiful and bright. But, no matter how hard I try, everything I touch - turns to ashes." (Buffy knows what you mean).
Fred/Gunn their interactions were a joy to see, but also sad knowing they will almost put an end to their relationship :(
The best scene is still Angel his monologue at the end. LOVE IT!


 
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Antho
Antho
<3 <3 <3 that monologue

Mr Trick

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Strong season opening. Loved Wes and Lilah and the twist with him keeping Justine captive. The tension builds nicely over the course of the episode whether they are going to find Angel and get the information about Connor's lying in time. Great opening scene too.:)
 

telperion66

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A very strong episode of television. Sets up a great vibe to season 4 (well, the first half of it). One of my "go to" episodes that I enjoy watching again and again. So much depth, balance, great character development I could go on and on.. but the show was only 44 minutes or so.
 
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