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Discussion of 4.07 "Apocalypse, Nowish" - Aired 11/17/2002 (WB-US)
- Thread starter Flannen
- Start date
I thought Lorne and Angel were so cute in the first scene, they were like bickering siblings when Lorne's trying to get Angel to ask Cordy what being a higher being was like. Speaking of Cordy, its such a shame to watch the previous episode, where we see snarky Cordy from Buffy season 1, to this character who seems like a shell of her former self.
Poor Fred and Gunn, its a shame that Gunn is still clinging to their relationship while Fred is clearly pulling away. Lilah imitating Fred was a little bit freaky and Wesley going a long with it was a little bit disturbing. It shows he still has a very dark obsession when in comes to Fred.
I hate bugs, rats, snakes etc so when them rats appeared in that bathroom it really freaked me out, I would have reacted the same way that Gunn did. Its so sad watching Gunn try and sort things out with Fred, he should just sing for Lorne or get Fred to sing for him so they both can get on with their lives. I so enjoy Lorne's not so suttle hints that he wants Cordy back to help with all the extra business. I really didnt like how Connor was so smug with Angel about how Cordy is staying with him, but then he went all sweet, pretty much in the same sentence, just so Angel would talk to Cordy. It was nice seeing Angel's face when Connor calls him dad
Poor Connor and Angel, first Connor sees Angel and Cordy being all cozy together and then Cordy tells Angel she loves him but because of what he did as Angelus she cant be with him. The Bangel in me loved that, because Buffy overcame Angelus' actions, she actually lived through being one of his victims, and at the end of it still loved Angel.
That was a very freaky vision, and the first one she's had since she got back from being a higher being. I wonder why she didnt have one when she had amnesia? I cant believe that Lorne and the others still havent realised that this is Apocalypse stuff that's happening. The Scoobies would have realised straight away
I always enjoy watching Lilah and Angel interact. He's changed so much from season 1, where he point blank refused to work with W&H and now he's asking Lilah can he worked with them!
Watching Cordy and Connor grow closer is really disturbing. Its a nice tie in that the Beast appears right where Connor was born. The Beast is one powerful demon, he kicked Connors butt easily.
I thought Lorne's advice to everyone who was phoning in was hillarious. He has such good humor! Watching Wes, Gunn, Lorne and Angel work together was good. They havent lost their team work experience. Its just a shame Fred wasnt there. Watching them fight the Beast and get their butts kicked showed they really needed a better plan, he's clearly a ''no weapons forged can kill me'' kind of demon. I really did like that Wes was the one to help Gunn though.
Eww, eww, eww on the Connor/Cordy thing. Her reasoning behind it, the fact that she wants to give him something nice to remember, doesnt make it less disturbing. Its even worse because Angel is watching them do it!
I've listened to the commentary by Vern Gillum and Steven S Deknight.
Originally the big bad was meant to appear later but the WB had scheduled episode 7 before the Christmas break and then they were off air for about a month and a half so they needed to revise some stuff and cram a lot of things into this episode.
They talk about how good an actor Vincent is and how good a stunt team they have to work with. J is really terrified of rats. That scene was originally meant to be done with CGI spiders but it was too expensive.
The sex scene was between Lilah and Wes got cut short due to time, along with the next scene with Gunn and Fred. It originally starting with Gunn explaining why he didnt like rats and that was because when he was younger his sister woke him up screaming and he found a rat chewing on her leg.
They mention that some fans werent happy with the Cordy/Angel being in love storyline. Also that in later episodes you find out that the evens have been organised by a higher being. In the scene were Angel visits Cordy he's still smarting over her leaving him and at the moment her actions seem irratic, but its explained better in later episodes. Cordy's vision was her manipulating Angel to get him out of the picture.
Season 4 spans a time line of 3 weeks and is one story arc.
Andy had a really bad back while shooting this episode and was in a lot of pain.
This episode highlights the start of the break up of Fred and Gunn. When the birds hit the window they wanted J to touch the bird but J wouldnt do it.
In the Lilah/Angel scene David is actually holding his script in his hand and every time they cut he would have a look at it. Its inside the day planner book.
They needed a fire marshall on set for lighting candles for the Connor/Cordy scene.
The actor who played the Beast had a really bad time in the costume. He was sick because the horns on his head were so tight they were squeezing his skull and he collapsed once.
The papers from W&H were originally not packed with enough text and information, so in the first shot of Angel you can see the paper he is holding doesnt have that much writing on them. They'd fixed that problem in time for the close ups. They wrote Gunn as the one to find the clue to show that he's more than just the muscle.
There was another scene with Fred and the waitress but it was cut due to time. The fight scene took 2 days to film. Its the most expensive episode made on Angel.
Poor Fred and Gunn, its a shame that Gunn is still clinging to their relationship while Fred is clearly pulling away. Lilah imitating Fred was a little bit freaky and Wesley going a long with it was a little bit disturbing. It shows he still has a very dark obsession when in comes to Fred.
I hate bugs, rats, snakes etc so when them rats appeared in that bathroom it really freaked me out, I would have reacted the same way that Gunn did. Its so sad watching Gunn try and sort things out with Fred, he should just sing for Lorne or get Fred to sing for him so they both can get on with their lives. I so enjoy Lorne's not so suttle hints that he wants Cordy back to help with all the extra business. I really didnt like how Connor was so smug with Angel about how Cordy is staying with him, but then he went all sweet, pretty much in the same sentence, just so Angel would talk to Cordy. It was nice seeing Angel's face when Connor calls him dad
Poor Connor and Angel, first Connor sees Angel and Cordy being all cozy together and then Cordy tells Angel she loves him but because of what he did as Angelus she cant be with him. The Bangel in me loved that, because Buffy overcame Angelus' actions, she actually lived through being one of his victims, and at the end of it still loved Angel.
That was a very freaky vision, and the first one she's had since she got back from being a higher being. I wonder why she didnt have one when she had amnesia? I cant believe that Lorne and the others still havent realised that this is Apocalypse stuff that's happening. The Scoobies would have realised straight away
I always enjoy watching Lilah and Angel interact. He's changed so much from season 1, where he point blank refused to work with W&H and now he's asking Lilah can he worked with them!
Watching Cordy and Connor grow closer is really disturbing. Its a nice tie in that the Beast appears right where Connor was born. The Beast is one powerful demon, he kicked Connors butt easily.
I thought Lorne's advice to everyone who was phoning in was hillarious. He has such good humor! Watching Wes, Gunn, Lorne and Angel work together was good. They havent lost their team work experience. Its just a shame Fred wasnt there. Watching them fight the Beast and get their butts kicked showed they really needed a better plan, he's clearly a ''no weapons forged can kill me'' kind of demon. I really did like that Wes was the one to help Gunn though.
Eww, eww, eww on the Connor/Cordy thing. Her reasoning behind it, the fact that she wants to give him something nice to remember, doesnt make it less disturbing. Its even worse because Angel is watching them do it!
I've listened to the commentary by Vern Gillum and Steven S Deknight.
Originally the big bad was meant to appear later but the WB had scheduled episode 7 before the Christmas break and then they were off air for about a month and a half so they needed to revise some stuff and cram a lot of things into this episode.
They talk about how good an actor Vincent is and how good a stunt team they have to work with. J is really terrified of rats. That scene was originally meant to be done with CGI spiders but it was too expensive.
The sex scene was between Lilah and Wes got cut short due to time, along with the next scene with Gunn and Fred. It originally starting with Gunn explaining why he didnt like rats and that was because when he was younger his sister woke him up screaming and he found a rat chewing on her leg.
They mention that some fans werent happy with the Cordy/Angel being in love storyline. Also that in later episodes you find out that the evens have been organised by a higher being. In the scene were Angel visits Cordy he's still smarting over her leaving him and at the moment her actions seem irratic, but its explained better in later episodes. Cordy's vision was her manipulating Angel to get him out of the picture.
Season 4 spans a time line of 3 weeks and is one story arc.
Andy had a really bad back while shooting this episode and was in a lot of pain.
This episode highlights the start of the break up of Fred and Gunn. When the birds hit the window they wanted J to touch the bird but J wouldnt do it.
In the Lilah/Angel scene David is actually holding his script in his hand and every time they cut he would have a look at it. Its inside the day planner book.
They needed a fire marshall on set for lighting candles for the Connor/Cordy scene.
The actor who played the Beast had a really bad time in the costume. He was sick because the horns on his head were so tight they were squeezing his skull and he collapsed once.
The papers from W&H were originally not packed with enough text and information, so in the first shot of Angel you can see the paper he is holding doesnt have that much writing on them. They'd fixed that problem in time for the close ups. They wrote Gunn as the one to find the clue to show that he's more than just the muscle.
There was another scene with Fred and the waitress but it was cut due to time. The fight scene took 2 days to film. Its the most expensive episode made on Angel.
Charmander
Eh, I think it shows more strength to not look past Angelus' actions. Buffy seemed to overlook a lot of things when it came to Angel, which wasn't how she acted towards characters like Spike.
PassionBecoming
Minuscule Redheaded One
I presume we'll be finding out more about what made Cordy all jittery after getting her memory back in the ep. Color me curious!
-Whiny Lorne. Heehee. Glad Angel is trying to keep the pressure off Cordelia.
-Mmm, gas station junk food. How are Cordy and Connor not extremely obese??
-I wonder why this particular demon is freaking her out more than any other demon/apocalypse that's happened? Not like it's something new...
-The demon snakes. Angel must be looking for some action. Heh.
-Awkward Funn moments make me sad.
-Oh. Mice. Lots of mice. And again, MICE freaks them out?!
-Lilah. You try too hard. Can we say jealous?? Obviously you DO care about Wesley's little crush.
-And this is why the good guys don't kill people, even if they are evil.
-Love Angel organizing the weapons. My kinda guy!
-Connor calling Angel "Dad". Big. Moment.
-Ok, this Angel/Cordelia moment is killing me. Hearing her say "I love you" finally, but that she can't be with him because she knows what he did. Similar to Buffy's "I know what you did because you did it to me". Different endings, looks like. Ugh, his eyes...
-Looks like business is picking up...big beastie bringing out the evil? Feels like we're on the Hellmouth again...
-Holy flying sparrows! 0_o
-How I love a good Lilah/Angel two-step. Gavin's a pansy. What a shock.
-Cordelia is not a good liar.
-Cordy and Connor flirting is so NOT ok. *shudder*
-Beastie pops up where Connor was born?? Ahhh, so there was a reason two vampires were able to procreate. *wantstoknowmore* Creepy demon feller.
-"Spritz it with a little 409, we'll get back to you." Heehee. Reminds me of "Just put some Windex on it!"
-And Gunn figures out the code. Score!
-"I hate to be the demon that cried apocalypse now-ish..." One thing I love about these shows - punning instead of panicking.
-Now, shouldn't Cordy and Connor go to AI and get some back up or at least let them know what happened?! Idiots.
-Big demon surrounded by a circle of dead people. Oh, good. And also, Angel is awesome.
-Ok, fight scene is awesome!! Fairly certain no one but Angel or Connor should go hand to hand with this dude. And demon with natural body armor? Not fair! Wesley with guns!!! Wonder how he got to be such a good shot, especially without sighting in. Have we even seen guns in these shows since Darla had them in the pilot?
-Oh. My. Gosh. I think I yelled no along with Gunn when Angel went over the roof.
-Possibly worst apocalypse to date? Wow.
-Um, Cordelia is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite characters. She wants to give Connor something real?? Ok, lady, you just told that boy's father you loved him earlier today. Messed. Up. Aaaaand it gets worse.
-And Angel gets an emotional knife in the back. Yet again.
Well, this Cordy/Connor crap is really making me dislike this season more and more. Really enjoying the storyline otherwise though. Seemingly undefeatable hell beast?? I'm wondering what ritual he started and where he went when he got sucked up into the sky. Curiouser and curiouser.
-Whiny Lorne. Heehee. Glad Angel is trying to keep the pressure off Cordelia.
-Mmm, gas station junk food. How are Cordy and Connor not extremely obese??
-I wonder why this particular demon is freaking her out more than any other demon/apocalypse that's happened? Not like it's something new...
-The demon snakes. Angel must be looking for some action. Heh.
-Awkward Funn moments make me sad.
-Oh. Mice. Lots of mice. And again, MICE freaks them out?!
-Lilah. You try too hard. Can we say jealous?? Obviously you DO care about Wesley's little crush.
-And this is why the good guys don't kill people, even if they are evil.
-Love Angel organizing the weapons. My kinda guy!
-Connor calling Angel "Dad". Big. Moment.
-Ok, this Angel/Cordelia moment is killing me. Hearing her say "I love you" finally, but that she can't be with him because she knows what he did. Similar to Buffy's "I know what you did because you did it to me". Different endings, looks like. Ugh, his eyes...
-Looks like business is picking up...big beastie bringing out the evil? Feels like we're on the Hellmouth again...
-Holy flying sparrows! 0_o
-How I love a good Lilah/Angel two-step. Gavin's a pansy. What a shock.
-Cordelia is not a good liar.
-Cordy and Connor flirting is so NOT ok. *shudder*
-Beastie pops up where Connor was born?? Ahhh, so there was a reason two vampires were able to procreate. *wantstoknowmore* Creepy demon feller.
-"Spritz it with a little 409, we'll get back to you." Heehee. Reminds me of "Just put some Windex on it!"
-And Gunn figures out the code. Score!
-"I hate to be the demon that cried apocalypse now-ish..." One thing I love about these shows - punning instead of panicking.
-Now, shouldn't Cordy and Connor go to AI and get some back up or at least let them know what happened?! Idiots.
-Big demon surrounded by a circle of dead people. Oh, good. And also, Angel is awesome.
-Ok, fight scene is awesome!! Fairly certain no one but Angel or Connor should go hand to hand with this dude. And demon with natural body armor? Not fair! Wesley with guns!!! Wonder how he got to be such a good shot, especially without sighting in. Have we even seen guns in these shows since Darla had them in the pilot?
-Oh. My. Gosh. I think I yelled no along with Gunn when Angel went over the roof.
-Possibly worst apocalypse to date? Wow.
-Um, Cordelia is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite characters. She wants to give Connor something real?? Ok, lady, you just told that boy's father you loved him earlier today. Messed. Up. Aaaaand it gets worse.
-And Angel gets an emotional knife in the back. Yet again.
Well, this Cordy/Connor crap is really making me dislike this season more and more. Really enjoying the storyline otherwise though. Seemingly undefeatable hell beast?? I'm wondering what ritual he started and where he went when he got sucked up into the sky. Curiouser and curiouser.
nightshade
wes has a gun in expecting during season 1
The Thirst Evil
The Un-slept
I have no idea why, but I can't help but laugh every time I hear Connor say "Chocodiles"
Out for a walk
5 Words Or Less...
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2017
- Messages
- 206
Did anyone else get a Tim Curry/Legend vibe from this demon? Pretty cool looking demon.
thrasherpix
I never did, but in the future it will be impossible for me not to. I'm not yet sure if that's a good or bad thing.
Give Us A Kiss
Fuffy Apologist
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2015
- Messages
- 2,324
A haunted toilet isn't so bad...
That was nice of Connor to say
So Cordy knows about the first too ???
Poor Cordy
Lady, go to the kitchen, go !!!
How would a priest help ???
Rats
Lilah, why are you dressed like Fred ???
This is hilarious
Texas Twig, that's a good name for a band.
Gunn and Fred are breaking up...
Lorne, get Wes and Cordy back...
Prince Angel, sounds a bit like Criss Angel
Vision
The professor is now rotting in hell, that makes me happy
Lilah, did you do something with your hair ???
Chanel=Fear ???
Connor is Angel's son so...
Cordy, because you helped Angel win a good sum of money...
Things are coming back to Cordy
Connor is getting awfully good at this stuff...
409 should help, that stuff is apparently strong...
Gunn, he wants to help...
Is that the Illuminati symbol or something ???
So Fred drinks Coffee for comfort ???
Can you even fix a broken rib ???
Too many dead bodies
Are guns the demon's weakness ???
Why ???
No, Connor wasn't supposed to happen, but he did.
Cornor
They are having sex now, why ???
Next time: W&H managed to get Connor...
That was nice of Connor to say
So Cordy knows about the first too ???
Poor Cordy
Lady, go to the kitchen, go !!!
How would a priest help ???
Rats
Lilah, why are you dressed like Fred ???
This is hilarious
Texas Twig, that's a good name for a band.
Gunn and Fred are breaking up...
Lorne, get Wes and Cordy back...
Prince Angel, sounds a bit like Criss Angel
Vision
The professor is now rotting in hell, that makes me happy
Lilah, did you do something with your hair ???
Chanel=Fear ???
Connor is Angel's son so...
Cordy, because you helped Angel win a good sum of money...
Things are coming back to Cordy
Connor is getting awfully good at this stuff...
409 should help, that stuff is apparently strong...
Gunn, he wants to help...
Is that the Illuminati symbol or something ???
So Fred drinks Coffee for comfort ???
Can you even fix a broken rib ???
Too many dead bodies
Are guns the demon's weakness ???
Why ???
No, Connor wasn't supposed to happen, but he did.
Cornor
They are having sex now, why ???
Next time: W&H managed to get Connor...
Cangel1987
♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
That was the worst and the most terrible episode of Angel I had ever seen. Poor Angel it must be very painful for him to see his son sleeping with the woman he love. I was very upset and furious about that part of the episode. I wanted to throw something against the television - but I didn't do that.
And I was like: seriously..., Cordelia why do you do that? He was almost your son - the baby you have change the nappy and feeding him with the bottle. It has such a destructive effect and it was so disgusting. Yuck! Not because of the age difference - more because she was the nearest person he has as a mother when he was a baby.
That's one of the reason I don't like season 4 Luckily, we get to know afterwards that it was not *our* Cordy.
And I was like: seriously..., Cordelia why do you do that? He was almost your son - the baby you have change the nappy and feeding him with the bottle. It has such a destructive effect and it was so disgusting. Yuck! Not because of the age difference - more because she was the nearest person he has as a mother when he was a baby.
That's one of the reason I don't like season 4
Luckily, we get to know afterwards that it was not *our* Cordy.
Mr Trick
Spot-on.
Fool for Buffy
I'm just being a big nerd again
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2017
- Messages
- 2,358
- Age
- 19
Do you only interpret this episode as that one scene though? Because I think the scene where The Beast crushes all of AI is really well done, and everyone looking out at the fire storm is pretty cool. Connor and Cordy should be illegal to watch on screen, there's no doubt about that, but this episode had some good moments overall and certainly isn't the worst Angel episode because of 3 minutes imo.That was the worst and the most terrible episode of Angel I had ever seen. Poor Angel it must be very painful for him to see his son sleeping with the woman he love. I was very upset and furious about that part of the episode. I wanted to throw something against the television - but I didn't do that.
And I was like: seriously..., Cordelia why do you do that? He was almost your son - the baby you have change the nappy and feeding him with the bottle. It has such a destructive effect and it was so disgusting. Yuck! Not because of the age difference - more because she was the nearest person he has as a mother when he was a baby.
That's one of the reason I don't like season 4
Cangel1987
♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
No, not the whole episode. Maybe I have written it a little bit wrong. I like it till the whole mess start
The mess with Angel/Cordelia/Connor
telperion66
Potential
For a season of the Buffyverse to be that exciting and bold in telling its season over three weeks, it was truly a pleasure to watch. The writers really left their mark on the legacy of the show in Season 4. Much of the season's story arc was well told. They went from being so confident in writing much of Season 4 to the watered down, strange mess that was Season 5 and that was sad to see.
Mr Trick
I prefer season 5 personally. Though I think the show peaked about mid-S3 time.
Always good to meet another Season 4
Mr Trick
Scooby
A much better episode than you would expect considering the cringe worthy moments. Some of the Fred-Gunn scenes feel forced too. It's a strong introduction to The Beast though. The creature effects for the time looked pretty good too. Think he has a retro b-monster appeal too.
tripdastati0n
Townie
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2020
- Messages
- 62
- Age
- 34
I cant belive cordy did that but connor is so hottt. Well i hope connor enjoyed this is my first watch btw! on to the next episode
FaithLehane16
"Five by Five."
Cordy wasn't Cordy in this episode. It was Jasmidelia.
So why would she be having a Nightmare about the Beast ?
FaithLehane16
"Five by Five."
Uhm, when Lorne restored everyone's memories so that they would be normal again, that spell awoke Jasmine, who has been dormant inside of Cordy ever since Cordy descended from the higher plane she was in. Spin the Bottle marks the first appearance of the being later known as Jasmine, while possessing Cordelia. Jasmine is released from the safeguard, set in place by The Powers That Be to hold her at bay, which is broken by the spell the group performs. As such, this is Cordelia's last proper appearance in Angel's fourth season.
It's all an act in the nightmare.
But the problem is they show her having the Nightmare alone when she has no one around. Since she brought the Beast in the first place why would she have that ?
FaithLehane16
"Five by Five."
Perhaps and error or her trying to be extra stealthy.
That makes no sense. There is no one around there is no one for her to be stealthy with.
It's either A) Lying to there audience (like evil Dawn with the cup of Tea in NPLH) or B) An abandoned plot thread due to CC pregnancy. Maybe the original intention was to have normal Cordy still trapped in there. Which makes some sense if they were originally going for the Becoming style ending.
Puppet
Dawn and the tea isn't lying, she just acts slightly 'evil' for first time watchers, but it makes perfect sense on a second and so on watch