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Discussion of 4.20 "The Yoko Factor" - Aired 5/09/00 (WB-US)

thetopher

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Sineya
My definition of "storming out of the room" is Dawn slamming the door and screaming "Get out! Get OUT! GET OUT!!!!" Quietly walking away isn't "storming," it's more, "leaving dejectedly."
My point was that Buffy wasn't kicked out of anywhere- she gave them all an ultimatum and she was called on it, so she felt like she had to leave. If Buffy hadn't said 'it's my way or the high way' it's extremely doubtful that her friends would've tossed her out of her own house.

The fact that Faith didn't get all of her Potentials, and herself as well, killed was another happy accident. Neither Buffy nor Faith were brilliant leaders, they might even be incompetent, and as for how stupid Caleb was, he managed to get both Buffy's group originally, and Faith's group later, ambushed using the same ploy. Who is more stupid, the stupid bad guy, or the stupid good guy who walks blindly into the bad guy's trap?
Actually they were lured into a trap ant then blown up with a bomb (if you're referring to the timing of the device then I pretty much agree of you).
Faith did several things that Buffy didn't- such as asking other people's advice (as opposed to ignoring Giles when he' says 'this is clearly a trap'), gathering intelligence on the enemy (false intelligence but at least she put the effort in) as opposed to just saying 'we're going back to the vineyard.'

That's the equivelant of WW1 tactics- do the same thing over again and hope for fewer casualities.

Unless they've changed the definitions since I was the Navy, if the troops won't follow the leader's orders, that's insubordination. (Yes, that's a military term, but it applies here, whether you see Buffy and her group as a formal military force or simply partisans, fighting a would be conqueror) If they then elect or appoint their own leader while ousting the former leader, that's mutiny, which, in time of war, is a capital offense. Either way, that isn't the leader's fault.
See my WW1 anology. History is replete with soldiers dying because they blindly followed the orders of incompotent 'generals'. You might call it mutiny, just like soldiers who refused to charge headon at enemy guns (tactics apparently) were shot because of 'cowardice', but in actual fact it was the only course that scared teeangers (not soldiers) thought they could take.
If everybody, including your 'military advisors' turn on you, then it's probably not the troops, its you. :)


My orignial point still stands, 'he who shall not be named' came into the situation, used his vast psychological prowess to jump to a conclusion about somebody he'd spent very little time with (and presumably didn't know much about her past history with Buffy, given that he was in the dark over the whole bodyswapping thing) was responsible for overthrowing Buffy.
That is indeed Faith's lot in life- but she doesn't complain half as much as she aught to...or at all in fact. :(

I will always maintain that his ability to 'read' people was somewhat overblown compared to Angelus, and even that dropped like a stone when he got his soul.

The guy isn't a thinker, he's a guy who goes with his gut and his emotions (as he himself says) and sometimes your emotions steer you wrong.
 

white avenger

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My point was that Buffy wasn't kicked out of anywhere- she gave them all an ultimatum and she was called on it, so she felt like she had to leave. If Buffy hadn't said 'it's my way or the high way' it's extremely doubtful that her friends would've tossed her out of her own house.



Actually they were lured into a trap ant then blown up with a bomb (if you're referring to the timing of the device then I pretty much agree of you).
Faith did several things that Buffy didn't- such as asking other people's advice (as opposed to ignoring Giles when he' says 'this is clearly a trap'), gathering intelligence on the enemy (false intelligence but at least she put the effort in) as opposed to just saying 'we're going back to the vineyard.'

That's the equivelant of WW1 tactics- do the same thing over again and hope for fewer casualities.



See my WW1 anology. History is replete with soldiers dying because they blindly followed the orders of incompotent 'generals'. You might call it mutiny, just like soldiers who refused to charge headon at enemy guns (tactics apparently) were shot because of 'cowardice', but in actual fact it was the only course that scared teeangers (not soldiers) thought they could take.
If everybody, including your 'military advisors' turn on you, then it's probably not the troops, its you. :)


My orignial point still stands, 'he who shall not be named' came into the situation, used his vast psychological prowess to jump to a conclusion about somebody he'd spent very little time with (and presumably didn't know much about her past history with Buffy, given that he was in the dark over the whole bodyswapping thing) was responsible for overthrowing Buffy.
That is indeed Faith's lot in life- but she doesn't complain half as much as she aught to...or at all in fact. :(

I will always maintain that his ability to 'read' people was somewhat overblown compared to Angelus, and even that dropped like a stone when he got his soul.

The guy isn't a thinker, he's a guy who goes with his gut and his emotions (as he himself says) and sometimes your emotions steer you wrong.
This isn't the subject of this thread, so I'm gonna stop right here and start one Specifically dealing with this topic. Otherwise, we're gonna screw up the original discussion even more than we have already.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Agreed. Good Move.

Mr Trick

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Another very strong episode. Pairing Adam up with Spike was a smart move because it suddenly makes Adam look not so terrible;) And since Spike is still caught between a Rock and a hard place, and hardly excepted as Scoobie then we get to see just how cynical and visious he can be just through words (which at this point is all he can use to harm them with). There are some fun scenes as a result, and I like the subtle detail of how Spike picks up on Willow-Tara and uses it to his gain. And Gile's drunk is wonderful too:p "Bloody hell":D And when he randomly throws his Jumper over Xanders head, love that too!

My other highlight is Riley and Angel fighting. Since I don't buy Riley was sweet, sensitive guy then his macho ego here kinda rings true, and I love the digs Angel gets in on him, "You actually sleep with this guy?":D Its a strong episode for Buffy too as her standing up to them, and calling them on their BS adds strength to her character.
 

bespangeled

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I love the way Spike knew the exact pressure points and how to apply pressure for them to completely fracture. I think that some of those fractures were never really repaired. Giles and Buffy had some real tension in season 5 when she wouldn't do what he wanted - and then he left in season 6 when he realized that it was no longer his time to lead her by the hand. I really do love the scene between Giles and Spike. He nailed it - poor Giles was told everything he feared.

As for Angel vs Riley - I love that part from the fight when they met to Buffy threatening to throw them into the walls - a favorite scene of mine. And then the conversation in the hall - I do love Angel, and I like the way he and Buffy still respect each other even though both have moved on in important ways.
 

Give Us A Kiss

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Sineya
Isn't morale usually a problem ??? o_O

Riley thinks too much, that's not a bad thing...

Adam, don't rub it in that Spike hasn't killed Buffy yet...

Adam, getting the slayer is easier said than done :p

Poor pouty Buffy :(

Riley hates Angel too, I don't get the Angel hate, he has his moments :)

Giles has a nice singing voice :D

Spike :eek:

Secret files in The Initiative, how the hell do we get them.???o_O

Giles agreed to Spike's terms :eek:

Willow's and Tara's cat is so cute :oops:

Let's stick with Miss Kitty fantastico :p

Willow, it's OK, old friends usually go in separate ways...

Riley looks good in Xander's clothes :)

Anya, tact :p

Spike's got a gun, but he can't even point it because of the chip in his head...

Poor Xander, getting fired from everything :(

Forrest :rolleyes:

Riley had no future in The Initiative...

Adam :eek:

Adam sucked that electric energy :eek:

Adam has defeated The Slayer :(

Spike in an Initiative uniform ;)

Willow is a whiz, let her do her job...

Spike figures it out, says her Lesbianism is just a phase...:mad:

Angel :eek:

Riley, don't mess with Angel...

If Buffyverse vampires don't go by the stereotype, why do they have to be invited in ??? o_O

Angel, you just made things worse...

Is Adam charging or just connected to the internet ??? o_O

Spike's right, Yoko didn't break The Beatles up, they broke themselves up...

Riley's right, Angel broods a lot :p

Buffy tells Riley about Forrest, Riley needs to grieve...

Giles is drunk, I like drunk Giles :p

Of course Willow hates Anya...

Buffy, it's you, not them...

Xander didn't know ??? :eek:

Next time:More about Adam.
 

Out for a walk

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Favorite part...

Xander to Willow "Tara is your girlfriend?"
Giles yells from upstairs "Bloody Hell" :D
 

Mr Trick

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The macho BS flying about between Riley and Angel never fails to entertain me.

Angel: "I'm going to see Buffy. Don't think you can stop me do you?"

Riley: "I surely do":D

Needless to say I'm so on Angel's side;)
 

Btvs fan

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The macho BS flying about between Riley and Angel never fails to entertain me.

Angel: "I'm going to see Buffy. Don't think you can stop me do you?"

Riley: "I surely do":D

Needless to say I'm so on Angel's side;)
The fight never really makes sense in universe. Riley hears on the Radio that Angel came out of no where.
While Angel asks if the welcoming committee was Riley's idea.
Both completely contradictory besides
How would Angel know about the Initiative ? How would he know that Riley is even apart of it ?
And how would Riley know that Angel was coming to town ?

It just feels like it was done so Buffy can come across as the mature one later, which if you see how she was in Sanctuary, she clearly was not.

Doug Petrie described how there was a lot of arguments with the writers about who should win the fight and even then, to make sure Riley looks strong. To me that's real messed up priorities. Why not concentrate on writing a good interesting scene than who wins a fight scene !
 

Mr Trick

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The fight never really makes sense in universe. Riley hears on the Radio that Angel came out of no where.
While Angel asks if the welcoming committee was Riley's idea.
Both completely contradictory besides
How would Angel know about the Initiative ? How would he know that Riley is even apart of it ?
And how would Riley know that Angel was coming to town ?

It just feels like it was done so Buffy can come across as the mature one later, which if you see how she was in Sanctuary, she clearly was not.

Doug Petrie described how there was a lot of arguments with the writers about who should win the fight and even then, to make sure Riley looks strong. To me that's real messed up priorities. Why not concentrate on writing a good interesting scene than who wins a fight scene !
You probably have to do a lot of whistling to get around those errors. I guess its possible that with their respective resources both Angel and Riley would have that information. Don't forget Angel has been keeping tabs on Sunnydale since leaving. I don't think its that fetched than he would know about Riley.

Its more about how the fight and Angel's position in relation to Buffy at this point ties into the theme of the episode. I think the reverse of the Buffy-Angel argument in Sanctuary is a little more murky than many. I do have some sympathy for Buffy's position considering what Faith put her through. This maybe does feel a little tit for tat. I get that.
 

DeadlyDuo

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For me this episode proves that Riley's Season 5 behaviour isn't as out of the blue as it first appears. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in the Briley thread about it.

The Yoko Factor

Riley: Angel.

Angel takes a step forward glancing down at the commandos on the ground.

Angel: Welcoming committee your idea?

Riley: Way I heard it. You were all peaceable now. You didn't by any chance go and lose that pesky soul again, did you?

Angel: (dangerously) Don't push me, boy.

Riley: (calm rage) Now what possibly could've happened with Buffy that would make you lose your soul?

Angel is walking a slow path that would take him around Riley.

Angel: (coolly) That'd be between me and her.

Riley steps in Angel's path and hits the release on the asp in his hand extending it to a baton.

Riley: Where do you think you're going?

Angel: Going to see an old girlfriend.

They are now standing right in front of each other.

Riley: Oh, you really think I'm gonna let that happen?

Angel: You think you're gonna stop me?

Riley: I surely do.
Click to expand...
Riley knows Angel is Buffy's ex boyfriend and is already showing possessiveness over her, trying to stop Angel from seeing Buffy. He sees Angel fighting and automatically assumes that Angel's lost his soul aka assumes Buffy and Angel slept together. It never seems to cross his mind that the Initiative attacked Angel first due to him being a vampire and that Angel was just defending himself.


The door bursts open a Riley steps in, steadying himself against the shelf of Willow's desk. He raises his arm and aims the Baretta in his hand at Angel, thumbing back the hammer.

Riley: (pissed) I told you, you weren't coming near her.
Riley had tried to dictate to Angel and warn him off of seeing Buffy and he's annoyed because Angel ignored his warning.


Buffy: (softly) Riley. (glances at his gun)

Riley: I'm sorry. (he holsters it) Just wanted to know that you were safe.

Buffy: (gently) I need to talk to Angel for a minute.

Riley: (exasperated) What?

Buffy: Riley, please.

He looks over at Angel who's just sitting down on the bed, elbows resting on his knees. He looks down at Buffy again.

Riley: (quietly firm) I'm not leaving this room. (crosses his arms) I mean it.

Click to expand...
Riley is already trying to excuse and justify his reaction by claiming that he wanted to know Buffy was "safe". He then refuses to leave the room when Buffy asks him.


Buffy: (mournful) Riley, I have to tell you something.

Riley: Figured.

Buffy: Maybe you want to sit down.

Riley: I'm fine.

Buffy: Riley, I--

Riley: (insistent) Wait. Me first.

Buffy blinks in surprise.

Riley: Buffy . . . I feel like we've gotten really close. At least I thought we had. I don't know much about Angel (Buffy lowers her eyes) or your relationship with him . . but . . . all I ask is . . if you're gonna break heart, do it fast.

Buffy looks up at him, frowning.

Buffy: What? You think that Angel and I . . .

Riley: Didn't you?

Buffy: No. Of course not. How can you even ask me that?

Riley: (sighs) I don't know. Xander said--

Buffy: Xander?! Oh, he's the deadest man in Deadonia.

Riley: No. It's not his fault. I prodded and he explained how Angel went bad. The, uh, trigger.

Buffy: (quietly) Oh.

Riley: And, uh (chuckles) after that, I went a little nuts! You know? I mean . . . On the one hand . . I should believe in us. But on the other . . Sometimes things happen between exes and when I saw that he was bad. . .

Buffy: He's . . not bad.

Riley just looks at her.

Riley: Seriously? That's . . a good day? (Buffy rolls her eyes in confirmation) Well, there you go. Even when he's good he's all Mister . . Billowy Coat King of Pain and girls really--

Buffy: Riley, stop.

She takes his hand and they sit down on her bed.

Riley: See? Nuts.

Buffy: Have I ever given you any reason to feel that you can't trust me?

Riley: No.

Buffy: Then why with the crazy?

He looks into her eyes.

Riley: (meaningfully) Because I'm so in love with you I can't think straight.

Click to expand...
So Riley has not only tried to prevent Angel seeing Buffy and automatically assumed Buffy cheated on him with Angel just because of their past relationship, but he is also now justifying his actions by claiming he "cant think straight" because he is "so in love" with Buffy.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I can understand Riley's viewpoint though.

Btvs fan

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For me this episode proves that Riley's Season 5 behaviour isn't as out of the blue as it first appears. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in the Briley thread about it.

The Yoko Factor


Riley knows Angel is Buffy's ex boyfriend and is already showing possessiveness over her, trying to stop Angel from seeing Buffy. He sees Angel fighting and automatically assumes that Angel's lost his soul aka assumes Buffy and Angel slept together. It never seems to cross his mind that the Initiative attacked Angel first due to him being a vampire and that Angel was just defending himself.



Riley had tried to dictate to Angel and warn him off of seeing Buffy and he's annoyed because Angel ignored his warning.



Riley is already trying to excuse and justify his reaction by claiming that he wanted to know Buffy was "safe". He then refuses to leave the room when Buffy asks him.



So Riley has not only tried to prevent Angel seeing Buffy and automatically assumed Buffy cheated on him with Angel just because of their past relationship, but he is also now justifying his actions by claiming he "cant think straight" because he is "so in love" with Buffy.
But the Initiative soldiers state on the Radio that they were under attack from something that came out of no where. They have no reason whatsoever to lie on this. Yet at the same time Angel is wondering if Riley sent them to attack him.
It really makes no sense
Petrie would be contradictory with his script reasonings again in AYW with the Savoltee Demon being both a breeder and near extinct.

Also why is he pointing a Gun at Angel, he should know that can't kill him.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But the Initiative soldiers state on the Radio that they were under attack from something that came out of no where. They have no reason whatsoever to lie on this. Yet at the same time Angel is wondering if Riley sent them to attack him.
It could be that the soldiers were patrolling whne Angel suddenly emerged from the shadows, they automatically pointed their guns at him and he went on the defensive. Therefore the soldiers think Angel attacked them first whilst Angel thinks they attacked him first.

Also why is he pointing a Gun at Angel, he should know that can't kill him.
Because Riley's being a possessive dickhead. This is classic "red flag" behaviour. He's tried to control who Buffy can and can't see (in this case Angel), it hasn't worked so now he's trying to justify his controlling behaviour by telling Buffy that he's "so in love" with her that he "can't think straight". He's accused Buffy of cheating on him without any form of justification yet she's the one having to placate and reassure him of her fidelity.[/QUOTE]
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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Finally the Scoobies work out their baggage. Poor Tara and Anya have to sit in the bathroom and hear the Core Four argue.

Giles was funny.

Spike's coercion of telling Xander of what has been "said behind his back" caused a reaction from Xander that I thought was funny.

It is sad that Spike didn't think things all the way through.

Why on earth would the Scoobies would think that Spike is really telling them the truth???

The fight between Angel and Riley never fails to amuse me. I was on Team Angel obviously.
 

Oromous

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Spike's psychological manipulations are hilarious. As much as I'm crept out by his "sexual predator" persona sometimes, it's times like this that makes me appreciate his role as a villain, able to speak out about the flaws of other characters. As ever, I continue to feel bad for Giles.

I feel like the final few minutes of the episode were a missed opportunity for the writers to really speak about the character flaws of the Scoobies. Aside from spelling out how Xander and Willow are ordinary human beings who can't help much in fighting demons, a point that was already irrelevant since season 1 when they've helping Buffy ever since, there just wasn't much new information that was said here in the final scene that we didn't already know, especially when there's very little, if any at all to criticize about Willow's character flaw. Notice how Buffy had almost nothing negative to say about Willow other than "witch stuff". It just wasn't as engaging an argument as it could've been if they were actually arguing about real flaws each character has. Buffy could've talked about Xander's multiple incidents of hypocrisy and Willow's constant need to use magic as an escape from her problems (see season 6), but instead, we just got an obligatory argument scene required for Buffy to be separated from her friends.

To sum up what I mean, I guess my problem is that, in trying to set up a scene where Buffy is isolated without her friends, the writers just didn't offer enough justification for that to happen. Unlike Spike who effectively touched on personal issues the Scoobies face every time he speaks to them, Buffy here didn't say anything that offensive to justify her friends not helping her next episode. It's a weak argument intended to be a strong one.

Riley. God, he's so boring. I thought he would eventually grow on me, you know? I thought that, seeing Riley being so sweet to Buffy long enough that I would eventually like him. But there's just nothing. No feeling from me every time he appears on screen, just shallow lines you'd use on a girl at the bar ("Because I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" *insert Buffy vomit gif*). None of the sensitive charm from Angel or the even more sensitive patience of Oz. Even Parker, prior to revealing he's a dick, was far more interesting than whitebread Riley. It also makes me wonder how a psych student, someone who's the Teaching Assistant to a psychology teacher, can be so dumb in reading people? Even Cordelia is more brilliant than him in picking up cues when speaking to people. Cordelia! The "tact is just not saying true stuff" Cordelia! I know the whole psychology major is just a cover-up, but looking back to the beginning of the season, Riley seems like he lost brain cells with every episode since episode 1, when he was more interesting as this brainy guy who's not just another dumb muscle - which he now ironically is!

If they really wanted a masculinity vs. femininity parallel going on between Riley and Buffy, couldn't they at least cast someone with actual chest hair?

Angel's return was SOOOO good. The fact that him and Buffy feel in-character again after the mess that was Sanctuary was so satisfying. (Angel: "Oh, and... Riley? I don't like him.") The Angel/Riley rivalry was hilarious and sweet (of Angel). See, this is the Angel we knew and love, respecting Buffy's boundaries and competence enough to back off, yet showing enough concern to really care about her well-being. Ugh, I miss Bangel already... Why couldn't Riley just sod off? Give me back my Bangel, curse or no curse. :p
 

Ann

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I really like Buffy and Angel in the small part that they share in this episode. They are back to themselves, the love and bond is still there between them. That is what Buffy and Angel do; they talk. That is what reasonable people do even people who are not dating anymore. I so wished Angel could have stayed and helped out with Adam. It would have been great. Alas Angel is busy in LA.
 

Faded90

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I really like Buffy and Angel in the small part that they share in this episode. They are back to themselves, the love and bond is still there between them. That is what Buffy and Angel do; they talk. That is what reasonable people do even people who are not dating anymore. I so wished Angel could have stayed and helped out with Adam. It would have been great. Alas Angel is busy in LA.
I think especially when communication has always been one of Bangels strengths
 

thrasherpix

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The show has...a lot of loose threads that could unravel the whole thing if you pull them (I wonder how much the show contributed to the emphasis on having a series Bible for future shows so that character and canon weren't constantly violated).

But I will give TYF one bit of praise, it actually showed everyone turning on the lead in a way that felt believable (unlike many other times in Buffy, and an all too common trope in so many series, as MAD Magazine once pointed out on series that loved this trope, "the school turns against Harry Potter should be listed on the academic calendar").
 
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