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Discussion of 4.21 "Peace Out" - Aired 4/30/2003 (WB-US)
- Thread starter Flannen
- Start date
I really felt sorry for Connor, he's been manipulated by Cordy, Jasmine and now Wesley. Then when he's talking to Cordy, saying how none of Jasmine's magic works on him, that he's known all along that its been a lie but he went along with it because its the best lie he's had to live through. Its just so tragic! The fact that he's the one to ''save'' the world, to bring back free will. Its such a sad ending, its not a happily ever after. Its ironic.
It brings about an interesting thing, the price of free will brings about so much death and destruction yet we need it because its human nature.
Wow, what an episode cliff hanger bringing Lilah back!
It brings about an interesting thing, the price of free will brings about so much death and destruction yet we need it because its human nature.
Wow, what an episode cliff hanger bringing Lilah back!
K
kittenpoker
yes! connor's speach is so touching!!!
PassionBecoming
Minuscule Redheaded One
-Epic battle against military minions. Stupid Connor.
-Creepy land of no color!
-Connor thinks the others are full of themselves?! Right. He hasn't learned a dang thing and obviously has abandonment issues. He needs to get over it.
-I love Wes when he gets sassy.
-Yup, Connor is very lost. I figured he could see what Jasmine really was, but didn't care. He is so desperate to belong somewhere, but is too stubborn to join with Angel. Stupid boy.
-"A long way to come, dead thing." I love the way these demon thingies talk!!
-"Wait, people? She's eats people?!" "It's To Serve Man all over again!" Lightbulbs yet, Connor?
-The Keeper's mouth is roped shut. Awesome.
-For "her" protection. Glad Cordelia still has a bit of a hold on Connor, if only indirectly. Figure it out, little boy.
-Angel don't listen to the creepy Keeper's keeper!!
-Why do we bother? Because as a parent you will always want things to be as best as they can be for your kids, whether they appreciate it or not.
-Go Wesley with the thinking cap! I hope Cordelia wakes up and is her normal self.
-Ok, I have to admit, the scene with Connor and the "security" guards was sweet.
-Eeeewww, tentacles!! Looks like the thing that came out of the Hellmouth!
-So, Connor talking to Coma Cordy. Hopefully he figures somethings out. Like, maybe it wasn't Cordelia wanting all this, Jasmine was controlling her? (I would like to think that anyway!) Aaaand now he's turning everything around on Angel. Of course. Because he wants to hate Angel so much and not be like him. He just can't accept that his dad and the gang love him no matter what and will be there for him. Glad he's finally choosing to not believe Jasmine's lies.
-Worldwise Jasmine. Nothing good can come from that.
-"Although a temple would be nice..." Ai ai ai. Ooo, Angel's back!
-And he has a head. Go Angel!
-"Don't leave me!" It's like Lonely Hearts all over again.
-I'm still not understanding what Jasmine's grandmaster plan was. She wanted to eat everyone? She just wants adoration?
-Go Angel! Free-will is what makes us human, whether we make good choices or not. It's our right.
-"Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions." The end does not justify the means, dearie.
-Eee gads, now we have another Glory on the loose.
-Fist through head. Good move.
-It's Lilah!!! 0_o
Well, that took an interesting turn...
-Creepy land of no color!
-Connor thinks the others are full of themselves?! Right. He hasn't learned a dang thing and obviously has abandonment issues. He needs to get over it.
-I love Wes when he gets sassy.
-Yup, Connor is very lost. I figured he could see what Jasmine really was, but didn't care. He is so desperate to belong somewhere, but is too stubborn to join with Angel. Stupid boy.
-"A long way to come, dead thing." I love the way these demon thingies talk!!
-"Wait, people? She's eats people?!" "It's To Serve Man all over again!" Lightbulbs yet, Connor?
-The Keeper's mouth is roped shut. Awesome.
-For "her" protection. Glad Cordelia still has a bit of a hold on Connor, if only indirectly. Figure it out, little boy.
-Angel don't listen to the creepy Keeper's keeper!!
-Why do we bother? Because as a parent you will always want things to be as best as they can be for your kids, whether they appreciate it or not.
-Go Wesley with the thinking cap! I hope Cordelia wakes up and is her normal self.
-Ok, I have to admit, the scene with Connor and the "security" guards was sweet.
-Eeeewww, tentacles!! Looks like the thing that came out of the Hellmouth!
-So, Connor talking to Coma Cordy. Hopefully he figures somethings out. Like, maybe it wasn't Cordelia wanting all this, Jasmine was controlling her? (I would like to think that anyway!) Aaaand now he's turning everything around on Angel. Of course. Because he wants to hate Angel so much and not be like him. He just can't accept that his dad and the gang love him no matter what and will be there for him. Glad he's finally choosing to not believe Jasmine's lies.
-Worldwise Jasmine. Nothing good can come from that.
-"Although a temple would be nice..." Ai ai ai. Ooo, Angel's back!
-And he has a head. Go Angel!
-"Don't leave me!" It's like Lonely Hearts all over again.
-I'm still not understanding what Jasmine's grandmaster plan was. She wanted to eat everyone? She just wants adoration?
-Go Angel! Free-will is what makes us human, whether we make good choices or not. It's our right.
-"Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions." The end does not justify the means, dearie.
-Eee gads, now we have another Glory on the loose.
-Fist through head. Good move.
-It's Lilah!!! 0_o
Well, that took an interesting turn...
Charmander
Potential
The world that Angel went to reminds me of the video game Oblivion when you travel through the Oblivion gates. (portals to very drab looking worlds with grey rocky surroundings)
I do think the actress who plays Jasmine is great. Vincent is a brilliant actor too, it's just a shame his character is so annoyingly flawed.
-100 compassion points for Connor not doing anything to stop the humans being eaten. And jeez, cut that hair boy!
Nice to see him finally rebelling/going behind Jasmine's back.
Woot, she finally got exposed!
"Always the same dad, I get a girl. You gotta make a play for her". Uh, did the writers forget that she's supposed to be y'know, his daughter?! Though to be honest after the Cordy/Connor stuff nothing surprises me.
I wonder if Connor actually expected that headpunch to do that:
Interesting seeing the big bad being defeated by a couple of characters and then the other main group not being there to witness it. Unusual in the Buffyverse.
I do think the actress who plays Jasmine is great. Vincent is a brilliant actor too, it's just a shame his character is so annoyingly flawed.
-100 compassion points for Connor not doing anything to stop the humans being eaten. And jeez, cut that hair boy!
Nice to see him finally rebelling/going behind Jasmine's back.
Woot, she finally got exposed!
"Always the same dad, I get a girl. You gotta make a play for her". Uh, did the writers forget that she's supposed to be y'know, his daughter?! Though to be honest after the Cordy/Connor stuff nothing surprises me.
I wonder if Connor actually expected that headpunch to do that:
Interesting seeing the big bad being defeated by a couple of characters and then the other main group not being there to witness it. Unusual in the Buffyverse.
Carrie Hopewell
Little girl lost in the woods
A David Fury episode I liked and a great episode overall. In a way, it actually concludes the Jasmine arc (she dies) and, if we exclude Home, it's the best episode of the arc.
I watched both Peace Out and Home on the train today, so I looked like a lunatic crying and laughing (but mostly crying).
This episode only suffers from Jasmine herself (until the spell wears off). I'm not very fond of brain-washed people and Jasmine's rhetoric is tiresome (although this was her best episode, because Fury managed to go beyond Jasmine's usual "I want to save everyone" crap). Beyond that, I don't have many issues with Peace Out. I wish we had less scenes of Jasmine and Connor together and perhaps more scenes of Connor on his own (questioning Jasmine). I also have a 'minor' quibble about Angel in that other world. Some of the dialogue is too one the nose and just plain nonsense:
High Priest: What is it you think you fight for, dead thing? Valor? What you call justice? Your friends are dead... most likely. Or so you believe, so it's not for them you fight.
Angel: I'm trying to save my world.
High Priest: Your world?! A world that doesn't care for you? Doesn't want you.
Angel: It needs me.
High Priest: So your Powers That Be tell you, and maybe they're right, but it's not why you're here.
Angel: Ok, bugsy, you want to tell me what I'm fighting for?
High Priest: Him.
[...]
High Priest: The boy. The woman you've already lost. The boy is what you're fighting for. But you're going to fail. You're going to lose him, too. So much effort, always struggling, trying to make things right for the boy, for Connor, but it's never enough. Why do you bother?
Angel: I can see you never had kids.
High Priest: The boy should not even exist. He was only a device to bring forth the blessed she—a means to an end.
Angel: Yeah, well, people get born for all sorts of reasons.
High Priest: He will never love you.
Angel: It doesn't matter.
I really don't think Fury is good with insults. Bugsy?
I hate it when the 'villains' psychoanalyze the 'heroes'. The whole "The woman you already lost. The boy is what you're fighting for" is bullshit. Angel has been a crappy father and love interest most of the season - he didn't realize that Cordy wasn't Cordy, and wasn't very concerned about his son when he was hooking up with an older woman. When the keeper of the keeper starts going on and on about how Angel needs to stop fighting for the boy, I'm like: huh? When did he fight for the boy or for Cordelia? If that's all Angel wanted to do, he wouldn't have left Connor and Cordy inside the hotel in Magic Bullet. Did Angel truly believe that the only way to save Connor from Jasmine was to kill her? Probably. He must have thought he could get to Connor if he was out of Jasmine's influence, but he is fighting for the world. The part about the PTB is effective and so is the "He will never love you" bit, but everything else is bullshit. I feel like the dialogue is trying to make us believe that Angel loves Cordelia and Connor and has been fighting for them this whole time. Except, he hasn't. We're supposed to believe that Angel is a hero and a victim, but he's not. He's guilty of neglecting Connor and he owns up to that in the last episode. He is fighting for humanity though, like a champion should.
I feel very sad for Connor when he's speaking to a comatose Cordy. Connor was truly trying to save people. He believed Jasmine's lie, because he thought that was the better one and he wasn't totally wrong. Ironically, he was the only person who didn't experience Jasmine's power for himself. He tried to be blissfully happy, but wasn't. That whole time, he had been fighting for everyone else's happiness, but not his own. He also tries to help Cordy all season long. Connor is one of the most selfless characters in S4 and no one ever acknowledges it. He's seen as the bad guy who is trying to enslave the world, when, in fact, he's just a boy trying to save it, like all the other 'champions'. Poor kid...
I truly liked the scene between Jasmine and Angel. I loved them being real with each other. One of the great things about Jasmine is that, the minute she is revealed as the bad guy, she becomes sympathetic and good. Jasmine was creepy and fake when she was trying to deliver world peace, but she was real and justifiable when she talked straight with Angel. I enjoyed how Angel realized they both had common goals, but maintained that free will was the best option for humanity. In other words: "Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.".
Side-note, the direction in this episode is great!
I watched both Peace Out and Home on the train today, so I looked like a lunatic crying and laughing (but mostly crying).
This episode only suffers from Jasmine herself (until the spell wears off). I'm not very fond of brain-washed people and Jasmine's rhetoric is tiresome (although this was her best episode, because Fury managed to go beyond Jasmine's usual "I want to save everyone" crap). Beyond that, I don't have many issues with Peace Out. I wish we had less scenes of Jasmine and Connor together and perhaps more scenes of Connor on his own (questioning Jasmine). I also have a 'minor' quibble about Angel in that other world. Some of the dialogue is too one the nose and just plain nonsense:
High Priest: What is it you think you fight for, dead thing? Valor? What you call justice? Your friends are dead... most likely. Or so you believe, so it's not for them you fight.
Angel: I'm trying to save my world.
High Priest: Your world?! A world that doesn't care for you? Doesn't want you.
Angel: It needs me.
High Priest: So your Powers That Be tell you, and maybe they're right, but it's not why you're here.
Angel: Ok, bugsy, you want to tell me what I'm fighting for?
High Priest: Him.
[...]
High Priest: The boy. The woman you've already lost. The boy is what you're fighting for. But you're going to fail. You're going to lose him, too. So much effort, always struggling, trying to make things right for the boy, for Connor, but it's never enough. Why do you bother?
Angel: I can see you never had kids.
High Priest: The boy should not even exist. He was only a device to bring forth the blessed she—a means to an end.
Angel: Yeah, well, people get born for all sorts of reasons.
High Priest: He will never love you.
Angel: It doesn't matter.
I really don't think Fury is good with insults. Bugsy?
I hate it when the 'villains' psychoanalyze the 'heroes'. The whole "The woman you already lost. The boy is what you're fighting for" is bullshit. Angel has been a crappy father and love interest most of the season - he didn't realize that Cordy wasn't Cordy, and wasn't very concerned about his son when he was hooking up with an older woman. When the keeper of the keeper starts going on and on about how Angel needs to stop fighting for the boy, I'm like: huh? When did he fight for the boy or for Cordelia? If that's all Angel wanted to do, he wouldn't have left Connor and Cordy inside the hotel in Magic Bullet. Did Angel truly believe that the only way to save Connor from Jasmine was to kill her? Probably. He must have thought he could get to Connor if he was out of Jasmine's influence, but he is fighting for the world. The part about the PTB is effective and so is the "He will never love you" bit, but everything else is bullshit. I feel like the dialogue is trying to make us believe that Angel loves Cordelia and Connor and has been fighting for them this whole time. Except, he hasn't. We're supposed to believe that Angel is a hero and a victim, but he's not. He's guilty of neglecting Connor and he owns up to that in the last episode. He is fighting for humanity though, like a champion should.
I feel very sad for Connor when he's speaking to a comatose Cordy. Connor was truly trying to save people. He believed Jasmine's lie, because he thought that was the better one and he wasn't totally wrong. Ironically, he was the only person who didn't experience Jasmine's power for himself. He tried to be blissfully happy, but wasn't. That whole time, he had been fighting for everyone else's happiness, but not his own. He also tries to help Cordy all season long. Connor is one of the most selfless characters in S4 and no one ever acknowledges it. He's seen as the bad guy who is trying to enslave the world, when, in fact, he's just a boy trying to save it, like all the other 'champions'. Poor kid...
I truly liked the scene between Jasmine and Angel. I loved them being real with each other. One of the great things about Jasmine is that, the minute she is revealed as the bad guy, she becomes sympathetic and good. Jasmine was creepy and fake when she was trying to deliver world peace, but she was real and justifiable when she talked straight with Angel. I enjoyed how Angel realized they both had common goals, but maintained that free will was the best option for humanity. In other words: "Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.".
Side-note, the direction in this episode is great!
Give Us A Kiss
Fuffy Apologist
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2015
- Messages
- 2,753
So who will help Angel then ???
Gunn has a point, that's not belonging...
Angel, you can do it
Jasmine, I can't believe anything you say...
Just say the name already...
There's a keeper too ???
Angel's smile is that of satisfaction...
How can anyone take comfort in your words ???
At least Cordy hasn't been eaten
So, much, talking...
Tell Connor where Cordy is...
I can't believe they still have the cage from the Angelus days...
The churches have gone crazy...
Cordy's dead or looks like she's dead
Jasmine's too bright again...
Connor, be careful what you wish for...
Too, many, news reporters...
I can't believe that they are still worshipping her...
Jasmine, co existing doesn't really work...
So Jasmine's weakness is her name ???
People are finally seeing the truth
Angel is right, Jasmine took away the right to choose, that's part of the reasons I don't like her...
Don't throw the car
Grandfather kissing granddaughter
Ding dong the witch is dead
Angel, it was a very eventful year...
Lilah's back from the dead
Next time: End of the Hyperion era.
Gunn has a point, that's not belonging...
Angel, you can do it
Jasmine, I can't believe anything you say...
Just say the name already...
There's a keeper too ???
Angel's smile is that of satisfaction...
How can anyone take comfort in your words ???
At least Cordy hasn't been eaten
So, much, talking...
Tell Connor where Cordy is...
I can't believe they still have the cage from the Angelus days...
The churches have gone crazy...
Cordy's dead or looks like she's dead
Jasmine's too bright again...
Connor, be careful what you wish for...
Too, many, news reporters...
I can't believe that they are still worshipping her...
Jasmine, co existing doesn't really work...
So Jasmine's weakness is her name ???
People are finally seeing the truth
Angel is right, Jasmine took away the right to choose, that's part of the reasons I don't like her...
Don't throw the car
Grandfather kissing granddaughter
Ding dong the witch is dead
Angel, it was a very eventful year...
Lilah's back from the dead
Next time: End of the Hyperion era.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Not a big fan of this episode. I just think the Jasmine arc is dragged out to a really painful length and this is a good example. I think they undermine the heroes a bit too much by keep hitting us with "well Jasmine did make everyone happy" or "she killed a million to save a billion" Its very on the nose at times. Having Lilah refer to it later doesn't help either.
Peace Out is a genus title and I love when Lorne references 80's horror/Sci-Fi Night of the Comets
Its very on the nose at times. Having Lilah refer to it later doesn't help either. Peace Out is a genus title and I love when Lorne references 80's horror/Sci-Fi Night of the Comets
Stake fodder
Soulless
This is very much Connor's episode, with a lot from his point of view. I think if they had had an episode like this early on, he might have gotten more sympathy from the audience. We do see how alienated and alone he is, and so desperate to feel a connection that he just decides to believe in Jasmine. That's what he lost when Holtz betrayed him. And yet, Connor's tragedy is that Angel and co. were willing to welcome him with open arms, forgive and forget, at any point, if only he could have overcome his own antipathy.
How much satisfaction Connor has at telling the others, "You're all alone now.... You don't belong." However, I can't really buy into the idea that Connor was dissembling all this time. Connor is clever, but he has always had this innocence and forthrightness about him, and he just doesn't seem devious enough to have faked it all along. At last, he does the right thing by killing Jasmine, and he can't even feel good about it. A tragic hero, indeed.
As for Jasmine, ultimately I think she falls flat as a villain. She doesn't seem to have had any larger motive than to have people to eat. Glory and Illyria wanted to be worshipped, but it just seems like a means to an end for Jasmine. She only talks about ending hunger and war at the end, and that's mainly to get at Angel.
Jasmine says, "There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. ...There are only choices." Except, we don't really need Powers that Be for that deal! I didn't take in before that she actually was one of the Powers that Be, which really muddles their meaning.
Why does Jasmine suddenly kiss Angel? And does anyone remember that she now looks (and probably smells) like a rotting corpse to him? Bleugh!
I liked the conception of the alien world, which did look like a true hell dimension. And Angel brings the head back for its literal "last breath." That was pretty funny in an otherwise serious episode. Though I think Angel maybe ruined that other world's religion.
I was really surprised that Angel tried to cut a deal with her in the end, to get her to work with him. How could he ever trust her? It seemed bizarre, and I'm relieved she rejected it. I can't see Jasmine as a Fang Ganger!
Finally, another cliffhanger. I knew Wolfram & Hart wouldn't let Lilah out of her contract that easily.
How much satisfaction Connor has at telling the others, "You're all alone now.... You don't belong." However, I can't really buy into the idea that Connor was dissembling all this time. Connor is clever, but he has always had this innocence and forthrightness about him, and he just doesn't seem devious enough to have faked it all along. At last, he does the right thing by killing Jasmine, and he can't even feel good about it. A tragic hero, indeed.
As for Jasmine, ultimately I think she falls flat as a villain. She doesn't seem to have had any larger motive than to have people to eat. Glory and Illyria wanted to be worshipped, but it just seems like a means to an end for Jasmine. She only talks about ending hunger and war at the end, and that's mainly to get at Angel.
Jasmine says, "There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. ...There are only choices." Except, we don't really need Powers that Be for that deal! I didn't take in before that she actually was one of the Powers that Be, which really muddles their meaning.
Why does Jasmine suddenly kiss Angel? And does anyone remember that she now looks (and probably smells) like a rotting corpse to him? Bleugh!
I liked the conception of the alien world, which did look like a true hell dimension. And Angel brings the head back for its literal "last breath." That was pretty funny in an otherwise serious episode. Though I think Angel maybe ruined that other world's religion.
I was really surprised that Angel tried to cut a deal with her in the end, to get her to work with him. How could he ever trust her? It seemed bizarre, and I'm relieved she rejected it. I can't see Jasmine as a Fang Ganger!
Finally, another cliffhanger. I knew Wolfram & Hart wouldn't let Lilah out of her contract that easily.
Priceless
Think it's in all the actresses contracts that they have to kiss Angel at least once lol