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Discussion of 4.22 "Home" - Aired 5/7/2003 (WB-US)
- Thread starter Flannen
- Start date
What happened when Angel had the knife in his hand and there was a big flash of light when he was with Conner and the bomb hostages?
Also, was Conner already damaged beyond repair (making him basically a psychopath) when he got back from Quar'toth or was it Jasmine's defeat that made him go crazy?
Also, was Conner already damaged beyond repair (making him basically a psychopath) when he got back from Quar'toth or was it Jasmine's defeat that made him go crazy?
I love how Lilah paints the picture of how the gang saved the world, making it sound like they did a really bad thing rather than restore free will. I love Lorne in the first scene he just seems so outraged ina funny kind of way.
Poor Connor, he's finally gone over the edge. It looks like he's on the road to recovery, that he's helping people and then bang, he flips and beats the guy.
I'm shocked that Gunn was the first to consider taking W&H's offer. He really has changed after killing that teacher and it was brought to light especially in that last episode were he hits that boy. And then to find that everyone was tempted and wanted to have the tour. If this had happened in Season 1 Angel would have said no straight away and Wesley would have been pointing out why it was such a bad idea to accept the offer.
The tour was very much like the snake tempting Eve with the apple. I'm believing that Angel didnt instantly join W&H to save Buffy because he knows she can save the world all by herself
I'm glad Connor got his happily ever after, it was heartbreaking watching Angel watch him.
I've listened to the commentary by Tim Minear.
There were questions about whether season 5 would get picked up so this episode was done more as a pilot episode for season 5 than a finale for season 4.
The original scene after they hear the offer was a little bit longer but it was cut due to length. It was set up from the first scene that Gunn's reaction was slightly different to everyone elses.
The point of Connor's scene was to show that he is a conflicted character. He's a lot like Angel, he realises that he is responsible for the chaos around him, when he finds the police man there's something in him that needs to help people. Then his next reaction was to show how much family and home mean to him. He cut some of this scene as well.
The Wes and Gunn scene was nice to shoot because its trying to rekindle the relationship they had from season 2. It shows that Gunn can see through Wesley but he also has his own agenda which makes it interesting.
The scene were Lorne comes in and Angel stands up and it looks like he's closing his shirt, a scene was cut of him and Fred where Fred is dressing his wounds from the previous fight and they were talking about Connor and Cordy.
The Gunn storyline is the only story that isnt resolved in this episode.
The actor Jonathan who played in the Buffy episode was also cast in the last episode of Firefly but it was never aired. The scene with Fred in the science lab was cut in half.
It was important to throw every kind of temptation at Angel but the only thing that would sway him would be saving his son. They always knew that Connor would only last for one season. They were going to have a more morbid end to Connor but the writers wanted one character to have a happy ending.
They originally wanted to show Lilah's contract magically reforming on the floor, it was Joss' idea just to have it reappear in the draw.
Charisma came in for the shooting and she'd just had the baby. The scene had a lot that was cut out of it. Connor mentions that Holtz had tried to love him but he'd hated Angelus too much, he also mentions Jasmine.
Angel kills ''old'' Connor which sets in motion a blood spell that Angel had agreed with Lilah and ''new'' Connor has the happily ever after ending. The end scene with Connor mirriors the first scene Angel hallucinated in episode 1 of this season.
Poor Connor, he's finally gone over the edge. It looks like he's on the road to recovery, that he's helping people and then bang, he flips and beats the guy.
I'm shocked that Gunn was the first to consider taking W&H's offer. He really has changed after killing that teacher and it was brought to light especially in that last episode were he hits that boy. And then to find that everyone was tempted and wanted to have the tour. If this had happened in Season 1 Angel would have said no straight away and Wesley would have been pointing out why it was such a bad idea to accept the offer.
The tour was very much like the snake tempting Eve with the apple. I'm believing that Angel didnt instantly join W&H to save Buffy because he knows she can save the world all by herself
I'm glad Connor got his happily ever after, it was heartbreaking watching Angel watch him.
I've listened to the commentary by Tim Minear.
There were questions about whether season 5 would get picked up so this episode was done more as a pilot episode for season 5 than a finale for season 4.
The original scene after they hear the offer was a little bit longer but it was cut due to length. It was set up from the first scene that Gunn's reaction was slightly different to everyone elses.
The point of Connor's scene was to show that he is a conflicted character. He's a lot like Angel, he realises that he is responsible for the chaos around him, when he finds the police man there's something in him that needs to help people. Then his next reaction was to show how much family and home mean to him. He cut some of this scene as well.
The Wes and Gunn scene was nice to shoot because its trying to rekindle the relationship they had from season 2. It shows that Gunn can see through Wesley but he also has his own agenda which makes it interesting.
The scene were Lorne comes in and Angel stands up and it looks like he's closing his shirt, a scene was cut of him and Fred where Fred is dressing his wounds from the previous fight and they were talking about Connor and Cordy.
The Gunn storyline is the only story that isnt resolved in this episode.
The actor Jonathan who played in the Buffy episode was also cast in the last episode of Firefly but it was never aired. The scene with Fred in the science lab was cut in half.
It was important to throw every kind of temptation at Angel but the only thing that would sway him would be saving his son. They always knew that Connor would only last for one season. They were going to have a more morbid end to Connor but the writers wanted one character to have a happy ending.
They originally wanted to show Lilah's contract magically reforming on the floor, it was Joss' idea just to have it reappear in the draw.
Charisma came in for the shooting and she'd just had the baby. The scene had a lot that was cut out of it. Connor mentions that Holtz had tried to love him but he'd hated Angelus too much, he also mentions Jasmine.
Angel kills ''old'' Connor which sets in motion a blood spell that Angel had agreed with Lilah and ''new'' Connor has the happily ever after ending. The end scene with Connor mirriors the first scene Angel hallucinated in episode 1 of this season.
PassionBecoming
Minuscule Redheaded One
Alright, season finale. I'm hoping some things are explained because I'm not feeling much closure. Sounds like Connor is going to tick me off worse, though.
-Well, Wesley's world is a bit rocked. The dollar bill reference.
-It's a...Lilah. And oddly enough, she's wearing white.
-"It's ok lover, I never felt a thing." "I'm sure that's true."
-Offer of a lifetime, eh? Should be interesting.
-*uncomfortable silence*
-And lots of hard breathing.
-"Oh, it's back. Restacked and zombie free. Bigger and better and shinier than ever." Though it makes no sense for the senior partners to just give it up, so they obviously have a plan.
-"Her stomach?!" Love it. So...the senior partners were happy they ended "world peace". I don't think it would have stayed peaceful for long under Jasmine's rule anyway.
-Erm...Connor has lost it.
-Gunn is the one suggesting taking W&H?! Didn't think he would be the one.
-Why is Wes acting so oddly?
-I didn't expect Fred to be there either.
-Lorne drinking in the limo with rave music. That's hilarious.
-Mr. Angel? "There is no way this is gonna go well." Nope, probably not. I feel like they probably all signed their souls away as soon as they got into the limo. Side note: Does Lorne have a soul? Also, first thing they should do is change the emblems from W&H to AI.
-More Lilah! I missed her.
-There's that whole too-good-to-be-true line coming to mind here...
-Hey, Firefly guy!
-Awkward nerd jokes. Excellent.
-Very cool prophesy books.
-Wes found a former Watcher then, eh? And apparently he's also Batman.
-"What am I going to do with twelve cars?" "Anything you want."
-Awww, sunshine.
-"Buffy can handle herself." "But isn't it more fun when you handle her?" I heart Buffy references.
-Oh, boy, Connor has gone off the deep end.
-Gunn and a cougar. Hoo boy. Is he gonna turn evil now??
-How does Connor know how to make a bomb? I doubt they had the materials in Quor-toth. And he probably doesn't know how to Google it.
-What is Wesley looking for?
-Lilah and Wesley moments. Sigh. "But it means something that you tried."
-Connor is blaming Angel for his life?! Gosh, I dislike this kid more and more. He hates Angel, hates the lies, hates he had to grow up like he did. Angel and the group have offered him a life with family and a purpose and he continually brushed them off, defied them, hurt them. He let himself get manipulated by Jasmine/Cordelia and it turned out badly, and once again he's blaming Angel. He did have a rough life and he is only a teenager, but seriously. Grow up and take responsibility. Use your brain.
-Angel is hurting so much from this and loves his son so much. What else can he do?
-Erm...kill him, I guess?
-And switch to Lorne, meandering and singing. Ah, Whedon.
-Well, W&H knew how to get Angel onboard. Promise care of his son and Cordy and he signed right up. Not sure how I feel about this situation.
-"Who's Connor?" Herm...so he got erased from LA life and transplanted elsewhere I'm guessing?
-Angel gave Connor his family afterall. A parent always will sacrifice for their children.
Not a terrible season ending. I still don't understand how the Jasmine thing went down exactly and why. And I really want to know what the gang signed up for by taking over W&H.
-Well, Wesley's world is a bit rocked. The dollar bill reference.
-It's a...Lilah. And oddly enough, she's wearing white.
-"It's ok lover, I never felt a thing." "I'm sure that's true."
-Offer of a lifetime, eh? Should be interesting.
-*uncomfortable silence*
-And lots of hard breathing.
-"Oh, it's back. Restacked and zombie free. Bigger and better and shinier than ever." Though it makes no sense for the senior partners to just give it up, so they obviously have a plan.
-"Her stomach?!" Love it. So...the senior partners were happy they ended "world peace". I don't think it would have stayed peaceful for long under Jasmine's rule anyway.
-Erm...Connor has lost it.
-Gunn is the one suggesting taking W&H?! Didn't think he would be the one.
-Why is Wes acting so oddly?
-I didn't expect Fred to be there either.
-Lorne drinking in the limo with rave music. That's hilarious.
-Mr. Angel? "There is no way this is gonna go well." Nope, probably not. I feel like they probably all signed their souls away as soon as they got into the limo. Side note: Does Lorne have a soul? Also, first thing they should do is change the emblems from W&H to AI.
-More Lilah! I missed her.
-There's that whole too-good-to-be-true line coming to mind here...
-Hey, Firefly guy!
-Awkward nerd jokes. Excellent.
-Very cool prophesy books.
-Wes found a former Watcher then, eh? And apparently he's also Batman.
-"What am I going to do with twelve cars?" "Anything you want."
-Awww, sunshine.
-"Buffy can handle herself." "But isn't it more fun when you handle her?" I heart Buffy references.
-Oh, boy, Connor has gone off the deep end.
-Gunn and a cougar. Hoo boy. Is he gonna turn evil now??
-How does Connor know how to make a bomb? I doubt they had the materials in Quor-toth. And he probably doesn't know how to Google it.
-What is Wesley looking for?
-Lilah and Wesley moments. Sigh. "But it means something that you tried."
-Connor is blaming Angel for his life?! Gosh, I dislike this kid more and more. He hates Angel, hates the lies, hates he had to grow up like he did. Angel and the group have offered him a life with family and a purpose and he continually brushed them off, defied them, hurt them. He let himself get manipulated by Jasmine/Cordelia and it turned out badly, and once again he's blaming Angel. He did have a rough life and he is only a teenager, but seriously. Grow up and take responsibility. Use your brain.
-Angel is hurting so much from this and loves his son so much. What else can he do?
-Erm...kill him, I guess?
-And switch to Lorne, meandering and singing. Ah, Whedon.
-Well, W&H knew how to get Angel onboard. Promise care of his son and Cordy and he signed right up. Not sure how I feel about this situation.
-"Who's Connor?" Herm...so he got erased from LA life and transplanted elsewhere I'm guessing?
-Angel gave Connor his family afterall. A parent always will sacrifice for their children.
Not a terrible season ending. I still don't understand how the Jasmine thing went down exactly and why. And I really want to know what the gang signed up for by taking over W&H.
Carrie Hopewell
Little girl lost in the woods
Home is Tim Minear's last episode on Angel, but it's an excellent one. This episode is 100% brilliant. A few observations:
- Lilah!!! She looks so beautiful. I love that small moment between her and Wes: "My Wesley made sure I'd be spared, just in case. It's OK, lover. I never felt a thing.".
- Love how Lilah shuts down everyone's self righteousness: "Right, where the slaves are full of giggly joy and love. Ugh, what a nightmare.".
- Connor is still trying to help people after the Jasmine fiasco. I get why he looses it on the cop. He had a family he didn't remember and Connor had no family at all.
- Love that moment of friendship between Gunn and Wes, especially the part about decapitating a loved one (figure of speech).
- "You want to get into that limo when it gets here? That's up to you. It's not a decision I can make for you, for any of you, but know this: Before the ride's even over, before you even cross through their doors, you'll be corrupted.". Seems like Angel was foreshadowing season 5.
- Lilah's second outfit might be prettier than the first one. I envy her! Loved the shot of Lilah walking with the guides trailing her.
- "Prioritize and personalize."/ "Divide and conquer, you mean." I just love Angel and Lilah together. They always see past each other's bullshit.
- " Come on, Charlie. Let me show you around the chocolate factory." On that note:
- Fred and Knox are okay (in that episode, not as a couple), Gunn in the white room is awesome and Wes has terrible relationships with Watchers (and ex-Watchers).
- It's amazing how Lilah tries to seduce Angel. Her most tempting offers are (in this order): sunlight (necro-tempered glass), saving Sunnydale and finding Connor. He refuses the offer to find Connor, until he realizes his son is in immediate danger, at which point he makes a different deal.
Essentially, Lilah offers Angel what he wants the most (in the right order of how much he wants it):
3. Sunlight aka the ring he destroys in In the Dark. This means humanity.
2. Buffy, whom he destroys the chance to be with in IWRY by choosing to save her (and other people) over his humanity.
1. Connor.
Angel has already refused the offer to walk in the sun and to be human with Buffy in season 1. And he isn't taking an offer to be with Connor, something he could have done easily when altering the timeline. Angel chooses to give his son a normal life, removing himself from the picture in the process. This was the only reasonable solution. Connor would always be in danger if he lived with Angel and he would always be lacking in his human experiences.
Angel and Connor's relationship ends the same way Angel and Buffy's did. It's tragic, but the outcome of Angel truly loving someone is always the same. There's an obvious parallel between Home/IWRY and Connor/Buffy. In IWRY, Angel gives up the chance to be human in order to save Buffy, and, in Home, he gives up the chance to be a father (something equally human) in order to save Connor. The only person who surpasses Angel's love for Buffy is Connor and both relationships are life-changing for Angel, equally intense and end the same way.
- Can't forget Lilah paraphrasing Angel's speech in 'Deep Down': "Nothing in this world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and it's cruel, but that's why there's you, Angel. You live as if the world were as it should be. With all this, you can make it that way. People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast.". It all comes full circle.
- Wesley and Lilah are just so...ugh...the shipper feels. Loved them. Their last moment was so beautiful, excellently written and acted. Completely true to the characters and relationships. I have nothing to say. Just...
Lilah: You broke in here for my contract?
Wesley: I'm here to release you from it. [...] You've suffered enough. I want you to find some peace.
Lilah: Gallant to the end...but I knew what I signed up for.
Wesley: It's done.
Lilah: Look in the drawer. Flames wouldn't be eternal if they actually consumed anything. But it means something that you tried.
- Connor and Angel break my heart. Their tears make me cry. Again, I'm just going to quote the characters. It's so well written and acted:
Connor: You tried to love me. At least I think you did.
Angel: I still do.
Connor: But not enough to hang on, dad. You let him take me. You let him get me.
[...]
Angel: 'Cause I want to give you everything. I want to take back the mistakes, help you start over.
Connor: We can't start over.
Angel: We can. I mean, we can change things.
Connor: There's only one thing that ever changes anything and that's death. Everything else is just a lie. You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all.
Angel: I really do love you, Connor.
Connor: So what are you gonna do about it?
Angel: Prove it.
- I love Angel and Lilah's last moment: Angel's "Thank you" and the glance they share is intimate, and says that they understand and respect each other. Lilah is still evil but she isn't the same person who tried to take Angel's son. I'm sad again...Goodbye Lilah...
- Seeing a well-adjusted Connor with his family is bittersweet. It's a beautiful moment and I'm proud of Angel for doing what he did, and seeing Angel's smile is also nice, but I mostly just feel sadden by his sacrifice. Knowing that his son was only ever happy with another family is cruel.
- Lilah!!! She looks so beautiful. I love that small moment between her and Wes: "My Wesley made sure I'd be spared, just in case. It's OK, lover. I never felt a thing.".
- Love how Lilah shuts down everyone's self righteousness: "Right, where the slaves are full of giggly joy and love. Ugh, what a nightmare.".
- Connor is still trying to help people after the Jasmine fiasco. I get why he looses it on the cop. He had a family he didn't remember and Connor had no family at all.
- Love that moment of friendship between Gunn and Wes, especially the part about decapitating a loved one (figure of speech
). - "You want to get into that limo when it gets here? That's up to you. It's not a decision I can make for you, for any of you, but know this: Before the ride's even over, before you even cross through their doors, you'll be corrupted.". Seems like Angel was foreshadowing season 5.
- Lilah's second outfit might be prettier than the first one. I envy her! Loved the shot of Lilah walking with the guides trailing her.
- "Prioritize and personalize."/ "Divide and conquer, you mean." I just love Angel and Lilah together. They always see past each other's bullshit.
- " Come on, Charlie. Let me show you around the chocolate factory." On that note:
- Fred and Knox are okay (in that episode, not as a couple), Gunn in the white room is awesome and Wes has terrible relationships with Watchers (and ex-Watchers).
- It's amazing how Lilah tries to seduce Angel. Her most tempting offers are (in this order): sunlight (necro-tempered glass), saving Sunnydale and finding Connor. He refuses the offer to find Connor, until he realizes his son is in immediate danger, at which point he makes a different deal.
Essentially, Lilah offers Angel what he wants the most (in the right order of how much he wants it):
3. Sunlight aka the ring he destroys in In the Dark. This means humanity.
2. Buffy, whom he destroys the chance to be with in IWRY by choosing to save her (and other people) over his humanity.
1. Connor.
Angel has already refused the offer to walk in the sun and to be human with Buffy in season 1. And he isn't taking an offer to be with Connor, something he could have done easily when altering the timeline. Angel chooses to give his son a normal life, removing himself from the picture in the process. This was the only reasonable solution. Connor would always be in danger if he lived with Angel and he would always be lacking in his human experiences.
Angel and Connor's relationship ends the same way Angel and Buffy's did. It's tragic, but the outcome of Angel truly loving someone is always the same. There's an obvious parallel between Home/IWRY and Connor/Buffy. In IWRY, Angel gives up the chance to be human in order to save Buffy, and, in Home, he gives up the chance to be a father (something equally human) in order to save Connor. The only person who surpasses Angel's love for Buffy is Connor and both relationships are life-changing for Angel, equally intense and end the same way.
- Can't forget Lilah paraphrasing Angel's speech in 'Deep Down': "Nothing in this world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and it's cruel, but that's why there's you, Angel. You live as if the world were as it should be. With all this, you can make it that way. People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast.". It all comes full circle.
- Wesley and Lilah are just so...ugh...the shipper feels. Loved them. Their last moment was so beautiful, excellently written and acted. Completely true to the characters and relationships. I have nothing to say. Just...
Lilah: You broke in here for my contract?
Wesley: I'm here to release you from it. [...] You've suffered enough. I want you to find some peace.
Lilah: Gallant to the end...but I knew what I signed up for.
Wesley: It's done.
Lilah: Look in the drawer. Flames wouldn't be eternal if they actually consumed anything. But it means something that you tried.
- Connor and Angel break my heart. Their tears make me cry. Again, I'm just going to quote the characters. It's so well written and acted:
Connor: You tried to love me. At least I think you did.
Angel: I still do.
Connor: But not enough to hang on, dad. You let him take me. You let him get me.
[...]
Angel: 'Cause I want to give you everything. I want to take back the mistakes, help you start over.
Connor: We can't start over.
Angel: We can. I mean, we can change things.
Connor: There's only one thing that ever changes anything and that's death. Everything else is just a lie. You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all.
Angel: I really do love you, Connor.
Connor: So what are you gonna do about it?
Angel: Prove it.
- I love Angel and Lilah's last moment: Angel's "Thank you" and the glance they share is intimate, and says that they understand and respect each other. Lilah is still evil but she isn't the same person who tried to take Angel's son. I'm sad again...Goodbye Lilah...
- Seeing a well-adjusted Connor with his family is bittersweet. It's a beautiful moment and I'm proud of Angel for doing what he did, and seeing Angel's smile is also nice, but I mostly just feel sadden by his sacrifice. Knowing that his son was only ever happy with another family is cruel.
Bluebird
'you let him get me'... :'(
GraceK
The part that always gets me the most is when Connor says " you let him get me". I just think of that little baby and I cry
Give Us A Kiss
Fuffy Apologist
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2015
- Messages
- 2,778
Angel, I'm shocked too...
Lover ??? (I know they were boinking buddies but still).
Lilah has an offer, I wonder what it is...
Lilah has gone to hell, not surprising...
AI, take the L.A branch...
Lilah has a point, happy giggly slaves is not good...
Guys, you earned it
Don't kill yourself
Gunn has a point, taking over W&H would do more harm than good...
Fred, what are you doing ???
Wes, none of you are nearly as corrupt as Hillary...
The Hyperion era has ended.
Lilah is offering them to be armed, smart idea.
Knok is kind of cute...
W&H has flourished from being just an evil law firm
Ouch
12 cars ??? That's a lot
Angel, why do you like to brood all the time ???
Angel, bring the amulet to Sunnydale, they need it...
Angel, don't leave
What is going on here ???
Connor
Wes
It's back
Connor is a suicide bomber
Connor is all kinds of screwed up...
Lorne is a little too happy...
Take, the, deal
Angel did a spell, made everyone forget about Connor...
Connor has a normal life for once
Next time: New season, new era
Lover ???
(I know they were boinking buddies but still). Lilah has an offer, I wonder what it is...
Lilah has gone to hell, not surprising...
AI, take the L.A branch...
Lilah has a point, happy giggly slaves is not good...
Guys, you earned it
Don't kill yourself
Gunn has a point, taking over W&H would do more harm than good...
Fred, what are you doing ???
Wes, none of you are nearly as corrupt as Hillary...
The Hyperion era has ended.
Lilah is offering them to be armed, smart idea.
Knok is kind of cute...
W&H has flourished from being just an evil law firm
Ouch
12 cars ??? That's a lot
Angel, why do you like to brood all the time ???
Angel, bring the amulet to Sunnydale, they need it...
Angel, don't leave
What is going on here ???
Connor
Wes
It's back
Connor is a suicide bomber
Connor is all kinds of screwed up...
Lorne is a little too happy...
Take, the, deal
Angel did a spell, made everyone forget about Connor...
Connor has a normal life for once
Next time: New season, new era
Mylie
Scooby
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2016
- Messages
- 2,098
- Age
- 34
I watched this earlier this week and was very surprised how good it is. For some reason, I had never appreciated it enough before and kind of thought it was a bit hyped. It truly is one of AtS's best episodes.
The whole episode is filled with memorable moments and manages to give some good material to all the characters.
The Angel/Connor scene is perhaps DB's best performance that isn't with SMG. It really encapsulates everything that was wrong with Connor being kidnapped and how it affected both characters.
Lilah is amazing in this episode!!! It really makes me sad that this is her last. She would have fitted perfectly in season 5. What wasted potential. Which brings me to... the potential this episode showed for season 5. The way this episode introduces season 5 actually made me excited to rewatch season 5? Now I'm just worried that the introduction was the best part of it.
Finally, the episode is filled with grey and nuances, the very question of «did they end world peace?» and everything that it involves is so interesting to me. Add to that Angel making another big sacrifice and you have THE classic AtS episode.
The whole episode is filled with memorable moments and manages to give some good material to all the characters.
The Angel/Connor scene is perhaps DB's best performance that isn't with SMG. It really encapsulates everything that was wrong with Connor being kidnapped and how it affected both characters.
Lilah is amazing in this episode!!! It really makes me sad that this is her last. She would have fitted perfectly in season 5. What wasted potential. Which brings me to... the potential this episode showed for season 5. The way this episode introduces season 5 actually made me excited to rewatch season 5? Now I'm just worried that the introduction was the best part of it.
Finally, the episode is filled with grey and nuances, the very question of «did they end world peace?» and everything that it involves is so interesting to me. Add to that Angel making another big sacrifice and you have THE classic AtS episode.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Not a bad season finale but it feels a bit like its spinning its wheels. The Connor stuff just kinda bores me. Part of the problem is they've just made the character look too naive over the course of the season. Come the end of the season he's just doing another reckless thing. And we should feel sorry for him why? Anyway his arc is given a nice wrap up, well sort of
The Wolfram & Hart stuff was intriguing and Lilah was great as always. Maybe it just feels a bit rushed, but still its a nice hook for the next season.
Anyway his arc is given a nice wrap up, well sort ofThe Wolfram & Hart stuff was intriguing and Lilah was great as always. Maybe it just feels a bit rushed, but still its a nice hook for the next season.
AnthonyCordova
modulating between criticism and reconstruction
Just watched it again recently. I was impressed this time around by DB's acting during his speech to Connor in the scene with the hostages. He does an excellent job of expressing the helplessness he feels for Connor. Side by side, I think DB delivers the scene and lines much better than NB delivers the crayon speech for example.
Stake fodder
What about my me?
I'm not sure why the Senior Partners are supposedly conceding defeat now. They wouldn't have wanted Jasmine in charge of the world, but they don't seem the kind to reward Angel for having defeated her. I also thought it was strange that the deal was presented as if each of the AI group could make an individual decision. Surely, they really wanted Angel, and would not have cared about having one or even all of the others without him.
W&H has supposedly been restaffed with non-zombie humans, and yet they all know who Angel is. I would have been suspicious of this, so I'm glad Fred was, too. Also, W&H looks nothing like what we have seen in other episodes. Was the light airiness of the building supposed to make it look less sinister? (Probably.)
It was a nice touch to have Lilah repeat some of the "champion" speech Angel gave to Connor. And the amulet, so pivotal to Buffy's finale, is introduced very casually and briefly. I had expected some heroic effort on the part of Angel to obtain it.
The director's commentary said that in the moment where Angel has Connor by the collar, he kills him with the knife, thus fulfilling the prophecy, "The father will kill the son." I felt that really did not come across. It wasn't at all clear that that's what happened, since they cut away, especially with no reminder of the prophecy anywhere else. Plus, didn't that prophecy turn out to be false?
I'm not sure what I think of the deal Angel makes for Connor. It is a better life, but one that makes Connor forget who he was. That's not much different than what Jasmine offered. And once again, Angel is making a decision based on what he thinks is best, without the input of the person most involved. But then, Connor was willing to accept Jasmine's deal, so maybe he would have agreed. And I think Connor's story has gone as far as it can.
The director also said this episode was meant to be a reset of the series, which had gotten "too soapy," in the sense that viewers couldn't understand what was going on if they missed an episode. They wanted the next season to be more "user friendly," to attract new viewers. Worked for me, as I watched S5 first! Originally, I just wanted more Buffy, and had the idea that several of the BtVS characters had transferred over, so I skipped ahead to S5. Now I'll watch it again, with a deeper understanding of the dynamics of the regular characters.
W&H has supposedly been restaffed with non-zombie humans, and yet they all know who Angel is. I would have been suspicious of this, so I'm glad Fred was, too. Also, W&H looks nothing like what we have seen in other episodes. Was the light airiness of the building supposed to make it look less sinister? (Probably.)
It was a nice touch to have Lilah repeat some of the "champion" speech Angel gave to Connor. And the amulet, so pivotal to Buffy's finale, is introduced very casually and briefly. I had expected some heroic effort on the part of Angel to obtain it.
The director's commentary said that in the moment where Angel has Connor by the collar, he kills him with the knife, thus fulfilling the prophecy, "The father will kill the son." I felt that really did not come across. It wasn't at all clear that that's what happened, since they cut away, especially with no reminder of the prophecy anywhere else. Plus, didn't that prophecy turn out to be false?
I'm not sure what I think of the deal Angel makes for Connor. It is a better life, but one that makes Connor forget who he was. That's not much different than what Jasmine offered. And once again, Angel is making a decision based on what he thinks is best, without the input of the person most involved. But then, Connor was willing to accept Jasmine's deal, so maybe he would have agreed. And I think Connor's story has gone as far as it can.
The director also said this episode was meant to be a reset of the series, which had gotten "too soapy," in the sense that viewers couldn't understand what was going on if they missed an episode. They wanted the next season to be more "user friendly," to attract new viewers. Worked for me, as I watched S5 first! Originally, I just wanted more Buffy, and had the idea that several of the BtVS characters had transferred over, so I skipped ahead to S5. Now I'll watch it again, with a deeper understanding of the dynamics of the regular characters.
T
thrasherpix
I don't think it was an honest surrender (any more than when Manners overlooked Lindsey saving the children). And after what they did, of course they'd want them all on their team, to distract them at the very least, and hopefully corrupt them.
burrunjor
Scooby
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- 31
Just finished this episode and it was great. I actually felt sorry for Connor for the first time in a long while. He bugged the shit out of me the last few eps LOL, but here you saw how broken he was by the fact that he had finally realised everyone he ever thought loved him had secretly been manipulating and abusing him for their own ends. The man who raised him, Holtz, the woman he thought he loved, Cordelia, and even the entire reason for his existence Jasmine. Ironically the one person who wasn't, his true father Angel he believed he had permanently driven away with his awful behaviour, "you tried to love me," but fortunately Angel proved that in contrast to Holtz and Jasmine he did put Connor's happiness above his own and gave him a second chance even if it meant never meeting him again. It also shows that Connor was a good person underneath it all, hence why he was capable of some acts of heroism even with the horrible life he'd had, but ultimately the damage inflicted on him by Holtz and others was just too much and now free of that he can be who he was always supposed to.
I will admit though knowing that we get the likable Connor in season 5 and Connor getting his bad memories back but still becoming a hero and accepting Angel has made this ending better. First time when you thought that was it for the Connor arc, whilst I'm sure it must have been a relief not to see him again LOL, it must have felt like a bit of cop out. Also I still say Connor was a mistake as ultimately he was such a noose around the shows neck not only did he have to be written out, but he had to be erased. A first for pretty much any character in the Buffyverse.
Roll on season 5 possibly the best season in all of the Buffyverse. Spike at his absolute best and funniest, Spike and Angel's legendary bromance, the scariest bastard in all of Angel, Pavayne, Illyria, the psycho Slayer (probably the scariest bitch in all of Angel LOL.) Puppet Angel, vampires vs Nazis on a submarine, Cordelia's touching farewell, Lindsey's return and his ignoble death LOL. So much greatness still ahead and I've only got 22 episodes left!
Ironically I think you can compare Buffy/Angel to Classic Doctor Who in that in in both cases they start out strong. Unlike a lot of other genre shows which maybe take a while to find their feet, they both really hit the ground running and were popular and iconic from the start. Their popularity only increased, but eventually they began to lose their shit.
In both cases it wasn't entirely their fault. Later series suffered from a lot of behind the scenes drama, in classic who's case, people trying to cancel it, in Angel's case Joss's ego getting out of control and him being a dickhead to Charisma Carpenter. Either way both go through a really bad patch near the end. In Classic Who's case it was Colin Bakers second season and Sylvester McCoy's first season. Both are really, really, really bad seasons. Boring, stupid, campy and just badly put together.
With Buffy and Angel I'd say that it's season 6 and 7 of Buffy, and Angel season 4. Season 3 is actually really good, but the seeds of its destruction as it were are sown that year, like Cangel, Saint Cordelia, Connor etc.
However in both cases just before the very end, the production team it seems learned from their mistakes and the last two Sylvester McCoy seasons and Angel season 5 are ironically candidates for among the best work they ever did. It was sad that both were cancelled, but at the very least it meant both ended on a high, (though sadly because a lot of people dropped off in the bad years I think that it took people a long while to realise that.)
The Beatles also had a similar trajectory. Their penultimate album (in terms of when it was made.) Let It Be is pretty ropey at best, whilst Abbey Road their last one is possibly their best of all time. It seems when people know that it's the end it can sometimes produce better work as they really pull out all the stops and don't let the success get to their head.
I will admit though knowing that we get the likable Connor in season 5 and Connor getting his bad memories back but still becoming a hero and accepting Angel has made this ending better. First time when you thought that was it for the Connor arc, whilst I'm sure it must have been a relief not to see him again LOL, it must have felt like a bit of cop out. Also I still say Connor was a mistake as ultimately he was such a noose around the shows neck not only did he have to be written out, but he had to be erased. A first for pretty much any character in the Buffyverse.
Roll on season 5 possibly the best season in all of the Buffyverse. Spike at his absolute best and funniest, Spike and Angel's legendary bromance, the scariest bastard in all of Angel, Pavayne, Illyria, the psycho Slayer (probably the scariest bitch in all of Angel LOL.) Puppet Angel, vampires vs Nazis on a submarine, Cordelia's touching farewell, Lindsey's return and his ignoble death LOL. So much greatness still ahead and I've only got 22 episodes left!
Ironically I think you can compare Buffy/Angel to Classic Doctor Who in that in in both cases they start out strong. Unlike a lot of other genre shows which maybe take a while to find their feet, they both really hit the ground running and were popular and iconic from the start. Their popularity only increased, but eventually they began to lose their shit.
In both cases it wasn't entirely their fault. Later series suffered from a lot of behind the scenes drama, in classic who's case, people trying to cancel it, in Angel's case Joss's ego getting out of control and him being a dickhead to Charisma Carpenter. Either way both go through a really bad patch near the end. In Classic Who's case it was Colin Bakers second season and Sylvester McCoy's first season. Both are really, really, really bad seasons. Boring, stupid, campy and just badly put together.
With Buffy and Angel I'd say that it's season 6 and 7 of Buffy, and Angel season 4. Season 3 is actually really good, but the seeds of its destruction as it were are sown that year, like Cangel, Saint Cordelia, Connor etc.
However in both cases just before the very end, the production team it seems learned from their mistakes and the last two Sylvester McCoy seasons and Angel season 5 are ironically candidates for among the best work they ever did. It was sad that both were cancelled, but at the very least it meant both ended on a high, (though sadly because a lot of people dropped off in the bad years I think that it took people a long while to realise that.)
The Beatles also had a similar trajectory. Their penultimate album (in terms of when it was made.) Let It Be is pretty ropey at best, whilst Abbey Road their last one is possibly their best of all time. It seems when people know that it's the end it can sometimes produce better work as they really pull out all the stops and don't let the success get to their head.