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Discussion of 5.04 "Out of Mind" - Aired 10/17/00 (WB-US)

DeadlyDuo

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Even Spike didn’t realize he was subconsciously into her until that dream.
It's lazy writing in my view, or perhaps it's the moment Spike is affected by the spell that inserts Dawn into the world, as he literally wakes up one day and realises he's in love with Buffy then from that moment on that's all his storyline is about.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
It kind of reminds me of Romeo to be honest, where one minute he's moping over Rosaline then instantly he falls in love with Juliet and forgets about her.

Ceadsearc03

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It's lazy writing in my view, or perhaps it's the moment Spike is affected by the spell that inserts Dawn into the world, as he literally wakes up one day and realises he's in love with Buffy then from that moment on that's all his storyline is about.
I agree. And then they kind of retcon it like “oh all the time Spike and Drusilla were together after Becoming Part 2 it was all about Buffy.” There really wasn’t enough build up and then we suddenly go from killing her to ... being in love with her and sniffing her sweaters?
 

DeadlyDuo

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I agree. And then they kind of retcon it like “oh all the time Spike and Drusilla were together after Becoming Part 2 it was all about Buffy.” There really wasn’t enough build up and then we suddenly go from killing her to ... being in love with her and sniffing her sweaters?
I strongly dislike how the writers tried to throw Sprusilla under a bus in order to make Spuffy fly. A ship needs to stand on its own two feet, not attempt to downgrade other former ships in order to make itself look better. Spike was happy with Drusilla and Buffy was happy with Angel; aside from a few moments here and there, Spuffy made both Buffy and Spike miserable.
 

katmobile

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I strongly dislike how the writers tried to throw Sprusilla under a bus in order to make Spuffy fly. A ship needs to stand on its own two feet, not attempt to downgrade other former ships in order to make itself look better. Spike was happy with Drusilla and Buffy was happy with Angel; aside from a few moments here and there, Spuffy made both Buffy and Spike miserable.
I think Sprucilla was messed by the renaissance of Angelus and Bangel ditto really. Beside Spuffy made Spike a better person and I don't think it made Buffy miserable the misery of it was a symptom not a cause other bad crap caused that. It may not have helped but it didn't make her miserable.
 

Ceadsearc03

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I think Sprucilla was messed by the renaissance of Angelus and Bangel ditto really. Beside Spuffy made Spike a better person and I don't think it made Buffy miserable the misery of it was a symptom not a cause other bad crap caused that. It may not have helped but it didn't make her miserable.
I don’t think Spike was the initial cause but her relationship with him definitely made Buffy feel worse in S6. And back to this episode - in S5 - she certainly wasn’t happy having him around at the time.

I would be fine if they said Dru was upset with Spike because he made a deal with Buffy but to imply it was more than that was irritating and didn’t make sense.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
To be honest, I just took it that Dru had one of her vision things and didn't believe it until he made a deal with Buffy.

DeadlyDuo

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I would be fine if they said Dru was upset with Spike because he made a deal with Buffy but to imply it was more than that was irritating and didn’t make sense.
I agree. Originally in Lovers Walk, Spike said that it was the deal with Buffy that caused issues with Dru "It was the truce with Buffy that did it. Dru said I'd gone soft". It was kind of played as if Dru had caught Spike cheating on her "I told her it didn't mean anything, that I was thinking of her the whole time".

Fool For Love tries to retcon that, but what I find most irritating is how Buffy, and other lead female characters in other shows suffer this too, is suddenly treated as this most desirable woman that men just can't help falling for.

I don't hate the idea of the Spuffy ship itself, but I just can't ship it because of the way the idea was executed. Had they not made Spuffy Spike's sole purpose from Season 5 onwards, then I might not dislike it so much, but as it stands, in my view they took a great male character and turned him into Buffy's lapdog because apparently all men find her attractive and are falling over themselves to be with her. Th only two that don't are Giles (her father figure) and Oz (Willow's first boyfriend who was generally useless).
 

spikenbuffy

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I love the beginning of this episode when Spike talks behind Buffy's back without looking his way and so then fall underground in a coffin. Me & My brother always laugh out loud at that moment :D. The writers adore to mock Spike. :p

BTW, do you think that Spike's fall underground in a coffin was kind of a metaphore or something else of his fate towards Buffy?
 
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ugh riley’s such an ass in this episode. he’d rather risk death by sickness than loose his strength, damn he irritates me
 

DeadlyDuo

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There was hints of that in Buffy v Drac when he was asking Buffy about Dracs dark penetrating eyes.
Exactly. You can see a decline in Riley's behaviour towards Buffy throughout Season 5 which then also retroactively affects some of his less than stellar Season 4 behaviour.
 

Btvs fan

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Exactly. You can see a decline in Riley's behaviour towards Buffy throughout Season 5 which then also retroactively affects some of his less than stellar Season 4 behaviour.
Forgetting Buffy for a second but why didn't Riley confront Spike after this. He made no bones that he wouldn't have a problem killing Spike with the chip in. Spike just tried to get it out and have Harmony try and kill Riley. You'd think Riley would do something about it
 

katmobile

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Keith Topping's episode guide states pretty much everyone behaves like an arse in this episode.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Forgetting Buffy for a second but why didn't Riley confront Spike after this. He made no bones that he wouldn't have a problem killing Spike with the chip in. Spike just tried to get it out and have Harmony try and kill Riley. You'd think Riley would do something about it
The writers were going full speed ahead with pushing Spuffy, they can't do that if Spike was dead and they can't have Riley fake stake him twice. This is one of those instances where a character can't do something you would expect them to do because otherwise it gets in the way of plot.
 

vampmogs

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I'm way more sympathetic towards Riley than the average fan but even I'm annoyed by him in this episode.

I always find it extremely cringeworthy when Buffy walks into the training room and Riley tackles her to the floor. His subsequent bouncing around and "you afraid you can't take me?" whilst she ignores him just gives me secondhand embarrassment. Not only is he acting like a child but it's weirdly aggressive too. She's visibly irritated by him here both in front of Spike and then Giles and Xander and it's hard to watch.
 

Btvs fan

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The writers were going full speed ahead with pushing Spuffy, they can't do that if Spike was dead and they can't have Riley fake stake him twice. This is one of those instances where a character can't do something you would expect them to do because otherwise it gets in the way of plot.
That's why the ending with Buffy should've been a real scene instead of a dream. It would've made sense and actually had Buffy address what just happened.
 

Btvs fan

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I'm way more sympathetic towards Riley than the average fan but even I'm annoyed by him in this episode.

I always find it extremely cringeworthy when Buffy walks into the training room and Riley tackles her to the floor. His subsequent bouncing around and "you afraid you can't take me?" whilst she ignores him just gives me secondhand embarrassment. Not only is he acting like a child but it's weirdly aggressive too. She's visibly irritated by him here both in front of Spike and then Giles and Xander and it's hard to watch.
The weird thing about this whole powers thing is that after he sees to be able to kill Vampires etc just as easy as before 🤷‍♂️
 

DeadlyDuo

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The weird thing about this whole powers thing is that after he sees to be able to kill Vampires etc just as easy as before 🤷‍♂️
Yes but he's not as "strong" as Buffy anymore. The power has shifted in their relationship to where Riley is now the weaker partner (since he no longer has control over Buffy as team leader of the initiative or TA once she drops out of college). It's why he becomes so fixated on what she "needs" because he wants her to "need" him. His excuse for letting the vampire whores feed on him were because they "needed" him. Season 6 Buffy would've been Riley's perfect Buffy.
 

Cheese Slices

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This episode is a mixed bag for me. I think it tries a little too hard on all accounts, and ultimately I would say that what works only works because of the performances. Not to say it's badly written all the way through, but it lacks subtlety in a lot of places and the pacing is slightly off.
Riley only truly angers me in three episodes : Into the Woods, As You Were, and this one. Boy is he annoying and cringy here. I guess some of it can be pinned on his heart problems, but I don't think it would affect him that deeply, pyschologically speaking. He ruins Buffy, Xander and Giles' moment, is being a drama queen when Buffy's mom is sick as well, and behaves like a petulant child overall.
As a result, the B plot with Spike is a lot more entertaining but also compelling, and though it is borderline ridiculous at times, JM's performance does a lot to push back against it (except when the ridiculousness is intentional, obviously). Spike and Harmony are funny together, and we get a lot of great lines from each. Spike's growing frustration with Buffy is played extremely well (I especially like the touch of having her slap him instead of punching him, which tends to feel more humiliating). Buffy's also growing frustrated with him, though unfortunately this thread is left hanging loose by the end of the episode.


+ I wasn't a fan of the dream sequence prior to this rewatch, but now I love it You've got Spike, in his own dream : 1) being his usual drama queen 2) being the one that's actually taking his clothes off 3) probably replaying a sequence of one of his soap shows. Also interesting the fact that he tells Buffy he loves her while she tells him she wants him.
+ Spike's realization and subsequent behavior is just so him : he almost never looks back. He's had one erotic dream about Buffy and he's like "well, guess I'm gonna go hang out in her yard then".
+ Also his offense at the notion that he can't pick flowers 🤣
+ Harmony is truly adorable
+ I kinda dig "bitchy" Buffy. She has no time for anyone's shit.
+ "If that's what I wanted, then I'd be dating Spike"...oh boy
+ I like the stethoscope scene; yes, Dawn is a little old for that, but it's neat nonetheless

- A very rare occurence of SMG's overacting a bit during the cave conversation
- The crossbow jokes get tired very quickly
- Spike knocks Buffy down way too easily
 
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