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Discussion of 5.08 "Destiny" - Aired 11/19/2003 (WB-US)


Mar 7, 2009
When another mysterious package arrives at Wolfram & Hart that recorporealizes Spike, the gang learns that the existence of two living ensouled vampire heroes has created chaos in the world. After Eve tells them about a prophecy that states that the only way to restore order is to find the Cup of Perpetual Torment that bestows human life, Angel and Spike battle it out for the ultimate prize. A series of flashbacks show the history of Angel and Spike and their relationship with Drusilla.
Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!


Bite Me
Jun 18, 2003
Black Thorn
I love the Spike and Angel opening scene. The way the flashback goes from them both being friendly to the present were they cant stand each other was really good. I'm glad that Spike is solid again. Although I cant believe he was solid for less than a minute and he wanted to get into Harmony's pants. I really dont like Eve, she's just not as good as Lilah.

I love how truly evil Angelus is. He saw that Spike really cared for Dru and he went after her purely to hurt Spike. Personally I think Angel gave up in the fight. I dont think he thinks he deserves to be forgiven, he likes to brood too much. I really did enjoy the Buffy references. I think the fix was a bit anti climactic, but the ending with Lindsey's return was great.

I've listened to the commentary by David Fury, Steven S Deknight and Juliet Landau. It was really good.

The flashback is a sequel to the flashback in the Buffy episode 'Lies My Parent's Told Me. The scratches on David's face didnt come out as well as they had hoped. When Joss saw the first scene with Spike and Angel he said''Why dont they just kiss already.''

Alexis was getting married while this episode was being filmed, hence him not being in this episode. Spike killing his mum was another reference to the 'Lies My Parent's Told Me' episode. The writers had all these elaborate plans for bring Spike back and it was Joss who suggested that they just have him open a box.

Some shots in the opener are from scenes that were cut out of episodes. The opener was changed mid season to include Mercedes. They received a lot of complaints about Spike having eyes for Harmony after they had spent a lot of time progressing the Buffy/Spike relationship but it was Joss' idea that if Spike had spent so much time as a ghost the first thing he'd want to do when he came back would be to get laid. Spike really did think that Dru was his destiny and they were a great couple. He romanticizes his relationship with Dru even though she is a monster. Its the poet in him.

Eve using pet names for everyone is to show her being condescending.

The Spike/Harmony sex scene was more rough than intended. Spike and Angel were originally meant to fight over Buffy, but firstly the show isnt about her anymore and they wanted it to be more than that so Joss brought in the prophecy. The writers were acknowledging that Angel wasnt the ''only one'' any more. David was originally meant to Direct this episode but due to him having a knee operation later on they pushed it back to episode 10.

This episode shows the route of the Spike/Angel rivalry and why Spike was so tense with Angel in season 2 of Buffy when they were around Dru. Every vampire has no loyalty, they are truely monster's except for William. Spike is an anomaly, he held onto his humanity. It's why its an interesting fight, Spike actually deserves it more than Angel. Spike has a certainty and knowledge that he is right and that really annoys Angel.

Fred calls Gunn Gunn when he attacks Eve. That was an error because she always refers to him as Charles. In the original script Angel was meant to win the fight but because Spike was beaten on so much throughout the episode they changed it.

They kept the final scene with Lindsey a secret from everyone, including the network but one of the episodes from episode 10 saw Christian and reported it.
Angel *should* have won!! I did catch the Fred saying "Gunn" and thought that was odd.


Minuscule Redheaded One
Feb 8, 2011
Northern Minnesota
I have a feeling this ep is going to annoy me just from reading the tag line. Reasons: 1. Since when does Angel want to be human? He's had two chances to live that life and didn't feel he deserved them either time. Maybe it's just a competition. 2. Spike's arrogance has been annoying me this whole season. "I deserve what Angel has because I have a soul, too." Um...no. Not the same." Ok, now I'll watch and see what happens. :)

-Ooo, I love flashbacks! Especially with crazy Dru!
-"Look what I made!" Hahaha. Another rooster in the henhouse.
-"We're going to be the best of friends." "Get the hell away from me, Spike!"
-Harmony getting insight from hearing Spike killed his mom while she was hitting on him. Heehee.
-Flash in a box then Spike walks into a door. Interesting.
-Spike hugged Gunn? Erm...
-And then he's macking on Harmony right away. Oooh, my dear.
-Wow. That guy is pretty upset about the toner.
-"She's off having a nooner with Blondie Bear." "She's what?"
-And Eve enters with enlightenment.
-"We've got trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stand for prophecy." Major points for Music Man reference.
-Making mashed potatoes outta this fella. Lorne. Love him.
-Cat and White Room gone? That can't be good.
-Cup of Perpetual Torment. Sounds like a good time.
-And there goes Spike with his "it's my prophecy" stuff. -_-
-Crusades...Vatican...Inquisition...It's in Nevada. Of course.
-Caesar's Palace? Ah, an opera house.
-Such a Spike move. I am actually starting to dislike him. :/
-Axe man tackle!!!
-So...maybe the Senior Partners made Spike corporeal again in hopes it would pit Angel and Spike against each other? Hmm.
-And that's probably where William started hating Angelus.
-Fitting that Angel found the cup first. Of course, Spike had to follow and ruin the moment. This will probably be a pretty awesome fight, though.
-Spike has a point that he did fight for his soul. Angel also has a point that it wasn't for any noble reason. Touche.
-Ooooh, so THAT'S why Spike really hates Angel. Well, he actually hates Angelus. Double-standard much there, Spike? You want to punish Angel for what Angelus did to you, but you want to be separated from what pre-soul Spike did. Hmmm.
-Careful, Spike. Bring up Buffy and Angel gets grr-faced, remember?
-Fred, don't play into Eve's game. She's like Lilah, Jr.
-Mountain Dew. Heh.
-Oh, Harmony.
-Yeah, I feel like the Senior Partners are messing with everyone.
-And once again, Angel gets something good ripped away from him. :(
-I knew Eve was evil!! And LINDSAY!!! 0_0 Well, someone was trying to get Spike to kill Angel, it just wasn't the SP. Squee!!! Did not see that one coming!
I agree with all your points. Brilliant post!


Aug 31, 2008
Ah our first true Spangel centric story. :D

Apart from the great flashbacks I adored the choreography for the main fight in this. Brilliantly done, both by the stunt people and the leads. All meshing together to help make one brilliant episode.



Jun 2, 2013
I loved seeing Spike and Angel meet for the first time. You can tell that Angel absolutely hated that Dru sired a male.
I usually think Angelus' accent ruins the flashback scenes but it looks as if David improved on it a lot here.
Yay, corporeal Spike is back!
Prophecies are so cliche and boring in my opinion but they're quite prevalent in the Buffyverse so I'm used to it. :(
I love Spike when he's like this, but his actions don't make a lot of sense for a vampire with a soul, especially considering how mature he was in Buffy season 7.
Well let's face it, Spike has a very valid reason for hating Angel. I wish Angel would acknowledge that he was responsible to an extent, for creating the monster.
I disagree that Spike got his soul just to "get into a girl's pants". Quite the opposite in my opinion- he had his realisation that he'd gone too far and fought for his soul for redemption. Yeah, he did it for Buffy, but it was more about proving a point that he could be just as good as anyone. But I think Angel is speaking more out of jealousy both of why Spike did it and the fact that he chose to.
And dayum, Lindsey looks good!
It's a bit of both Spike got ensouled half for Buffy and half so he wouldn't hurt her again so neither vamp is telling the truth and yet they sort of both are.


Grr Arrg
Nov 3, 2016
Anyone else actually embarrassed by the wigs and the accents in the flashbacks? Maybe because they are both so much more obviously fatter and older, but it's almost cringeworthy Watching those scenes O.O

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Feb 4, 2015
A flashback :D

Angelus :eek:

William, the newly sired :p

Angelus has an awful accent...

Angel is not an ape...


Spike has mail ??? o_O

Spike is no longer a ghost :D

Spike, we don't take other people's blood :mad:

Is it me or William just laughs at everything ???:confused:...

Dru is more insane than childish...

There is definitely a bug in the system...

Eve... :rolleyes:

Kids ??? :mad:

This is getting ridiculous...:rolleyes:

Angel has a point, Europe will still be there...

Gunn, I miss Wes too.

Angel, Spike, stop acting like children...:mad:

Spike has a cellphone ??? o_O

Unlike Eve, I don't like being around for that kind of stuff...

Flashback :D

Truth, justice and soccer moms :p

Still fighting over Buffy... :rolleyes:

Gunn :eek:

Angel, Spike, grow up...:rolleyes:

Is Dru channeling Faith ??? o_O

Spike has gone way too far...

Spike drank from the cup :eek:

They are snapping out of it :D

Angel, you will deal with it :)

Eve is behind it, I knew it !!!

She's sleeping with Lindsay :eek:

Next time: More about Harmony... :rolleyes:

Mr Trick

Jan 9, 2015
London, UK
Strange one because the plot feels a little bit pointless. I love seeing a bit more of Dru but didn't feel we needed a flashback to when Spike and Angel first met its already been covered in some detail. I enjoyed this one for a lot of the character stuff and the back and forth between Angel-Spike but the plot felt a bit repetitive. It's sort of saved by the twist with Eve at the end. That was nicely done at least.
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