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Discussion of 5.12 "You're Welcome" - Aired 2/4/2004 (WB-US)

white avenger

white avenger
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The last episode with my favorite character from the Buffyverse. It was sad to see Cordelia leave the way she did, and while I did appreciate this episode, I felt Cordelia deserved more. I know pretty much everybody will agree with me that Cordelia should have been in season 5 and she needed to be beside Angel and the others in the final scene of "Not Fade Away".
The first time that I watched this episode, I hadn't seen the rest of the series (there was a conflict on the night/time that it aired, so we never watched it) so Cordy appearing didn't seem all that significant to me. After seeing the entire series, though, I have to say that I don't know how Season 5 could have worked the way that it did if Cordy had still been around, because she wouldn't have let Angel take over the Wolfram & Hart law offices in the first place. She might have even talked him out of what he did to Connor at the end of Season 4.

Also, I seriously doubt that she would have allowed Spike to be there all Season without informing Buffy that he was back.
 

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
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And yeah,if it's the case that SMG was invited back for this episode, then I think Buffy's presence would've taken attention away from Cordelia, though it would have been nice for her to say her final goodbyes to her.
I've never considered the notion of Buffy's intended presence in this episode being a chance for Cordelia to reconcile with her before she died, that's actually an intriguing thought.
I'm suddenly wondering if Andrew's message to Angel that Buffy no longer trusts him in 'Damaged' was actually residual from the original script in which she visited, that 'Damage' was intended for after this episode rather than before. It would make a lot more sense that way because her visit in this episode would have explained how Buffy knew Angel was running W&H or even what it was. Though the concept of Buffy judging without knowing anything isn't exactly out of character.

There is actually a fan-video on youtube of Buffy having been manipped in stumbling on the kiss between Cordelia and Angel at the end of this episode:
(WARNING: This video isn't Bangel shipper friendly but please know that I'm presenting it as an unbiased 'what could have happened' since Buffy was intended to appear in this episode, NOT as an attack)

The first time that I watched this episode, I hadn't seen the rest of the series (there was a conflict on the night/time that it aired, so we never watched it) so Cordy appearing didn't seem all that significant to me. After seeing the entire series, though, I have to say that I don't know how Season 5 could have worked the way that it did if Cordy had still been around, because she wouldn't have let Angel take over the Wolfram & Hart law offices in the first place. She might have even talked him out of what he did to Connor at the end of Season 4.

Also, I seriously doubt that she would have allowed Spike to be there all Season without informing Buffy that he was back.
These theories are all arguable.
If Cordelia had been part of the season 4 experience and thus really understood the full extent of how messed up Connor was, had she heard the stories Angel did of his upbringing in Quor-Teth I seriously doubt she'd protest the option of giving him a better life which in turn would have meant accepting the W&H position. Or at the very least she'd be open to it. She would NOT have been alright with Connor suffering for what happened to him. Recall how she'd at one point told Angel that she was perfectly fine with him killing Wesley for "robbing Connor's childhood". So if she could give it back, she would in any way necessary.

She and Buffy never had a connection so I also seriously doubt she'd make the relationship between Buffy and Spike her business. She could have easily picked up a phone during this episode if she had an opinion on that matter (yeah she didn't know in the actual scenario but it could have easily been written that she'd found out by some random means, like Angel mentioning it in a Spike rant he spills on her or something).

If you really think about it the events of season 4 would have had to play out completely differently for Cordelia to have still been around in season five, perhaps even to an extent at which the team would not have been given the W&H offer.

The first time I'd watched this episode was before I'd watched the rest of season five (it took me a while and some reassurance from fans around here to bring myself to be able to) but the second time, this time in sequence with the season I learned that it's nothing without the whole season. The proceeding episodes, especially 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco' gave a lot of strength to Cordy's role in this episode and Angel's line "I am lost without you".
I really appreciate about season five as a whole, how it gives a lot of power to this episode and to Cordy's finale.
 

white avenger

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.

If you really think about it the events of season 4 would have had to play out completely differently for Cordelia to have still been around in season five, perhaps even to an extent at which the team would not have been given the W&H offer.

.
If Cordy to have actually been there in Season 5, she would have almost certainly meant that she had actually been there for Season 4, and wasn't the whole idea of Season 4 that what Angel and his team thought was Cordy was actually Jasmine manipulating everybody, especially Angel and Connor? If she had actually been there, Season 4 would have had to have played out much differently. Connor probably wouldn't have been in the messed up state that he was in at the end of that Season, which would have meant that there would have been no bargain with Wolfram & Hart.

All of Seasons 4 and 5 would have had to be completely rewritten, which would have probably meant no Faith in Season 4 or in Season 7 of "Buffy," as well as no amulet for Angel to take to Sunnydale. meaning that Buffy's victory over the First Evil would have either depended on Willow's magic and the newly activated Slayers' fighting ability......

If Cordy had actually been present, Season 4 and 5 of "Angel," and probably a good portion of Season 7 of "Buffy" would have been different.
 

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
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If Cordy to have actually been there in Season 5, she would have almost certainly meant that she had actually been there for Season 4, and wasn't the whole idea of Season 4 that what Angel and his team thought was Cordy was actually Jasmine manipulating everybody, especially Angel and Connor? If she had actually been there, Season 4 would have had to have played out much differently. Connor probably wouldn't have been in the messed up state that he was in at the end of that Season, which would have meant that there would have been no bargain with Wolfram & Hart.

All of Seasons 4 and 5 would have had to be completely rewritten, which would have probably meant no Faith in Season 4 or in Season 7 of "Buffy," as well as no amulet for Angel to take to Sunnydale. meaning that Buffy's victory over the First Evil would have either depended on Willow's magic and the newly activated Slayers' fighting ability......

If Cordy had actually been present, Season 4 and 5 of "Angel," and probably a good portion of Season 7 of "Buffy" would have been different.
Exactly what I was saying but you added greater detail, I agree. My point was that your original suggestions that Cordy would have protested their taking W&H and disapproving of Angel re-writing Connor would not have even been issues because season 4 would not have led to those choices. Before that I was being hypothetical.
I'm intrigued now by what Whedon's idea would have been for the last two seasons that would have allowed Cordy to keep her significant role the way it was until the end of 'Waiting in the Wings' when the whole Groosalugg storyline started deteriorating her character.
(I've recently heard that Charisma actually didn't like the Groosalugg for Cordy.)

(BTW technically there was no defeating of the First Evil, the only victory won in the Buffy finale was Spike doing a 'The Price' Cordy at a greater extend to an army of Ubervamps. The First kinda took off after Buffy killed Caleb. Lame, but I digress.)
 

white avenger

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(BTW technically there was no defeating of the First Evil, the only victory won in the Buffy finale was Spike doing a 'The Price' Cordy at a greater extend to an army of Ubervamps. The First kinda took off after Buffy killed Caleb. Lame, but I digress.)
I differentiate "victory" and "defeat" in that Buffy and her friends achieved victory in their battle with the First Evil. That doesn't imply that they destroyed it, only that its immediate plans were thwarted.
 
Cordy_Chase
Cordy_Chase
Alright, fair enough. I've never considered that there could be a difference between being victorious and defeating to an extent but you make sense of it.

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
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Since posting my revised review, a correction needs to be made.

*Whedon had originally intended for Buffy to have a guest role in this episode (details unknown) but SMG declined to appear for "personal reasons". Personally, I like to think that she'd wanted to respect that this was meant to be Charisma's/Cordelia's spotlight and wanted to stay out of the way. If this is the case than that was a very admirable move and I'm grateful to her. I'm sorry, but Buffy didn't belong in this episode. She would have just brought a lot of clutter to the story line.
I've discovered that I had initially misunderstood this information.
Buffy was not meant to appear alongside Cordelia in this episode, she was meant to be the featured guest character instead of Cordelia. Details still unknown.

My apologies for the confusion.

In addition, I believe SMG's reason for declining was that she'd quit the role after the finale of season 7 of BTVS.
 

Out for a walk

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Aww...this was a good episode. I really wish she was able to be in the last season more. You can see how her being her "normal" self is awesome for the show. I wish she had a better storyline in season 4, but I really liked that she had this send off episode.


Btw, Charisma looked great in the episode. She really bounced back after having her baby.
 

Fool for Buffy

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Aww...this was a good episode. I really wish she was able to be in the last season more. You can see how her being her "normal" self is awesome for the show. I wish she had a better storyline in season 4, but I really liked that she had this send off episode.


Btw, Charisma looked great in the episode. She really bounced back after having her baby.
She finally had good hair again! For the first time since before Pylea
 

Give Us A Kiss

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Angel and co. are crashing into a house...

Killing nuns because of their religion is just wrong...

Angel has had enough, knew it was coming...

Cordy is not in a coma anymore :eek:

Gunn has a good point...

Gunn has elf ears :eek:

Cordy looks hot ;)

Cordy, there is no hotel anymore...

The Black Thorne creatures :eek:

Harmony...:rolleyes:

Surprised that Cordy remembers Connor...

Eve...:rolleyes:

Eww...

What is Spike playing ??? o_O

Lindsay :eek:

Spike has anger issues...

They have that video of Doyle.

Cordy, it wasn't that...:mad:

Cordy, Angel had his reasons...

Cordy, 2004 wasn't nearly as bizzaro as the current times are...

Angel,you need a haircut.

Eve, Lindsay, get a room...:rolleyes:

Wes, don't use slang ever again :eek:

Lindsay looks awful in that one piece thingy...or is it a one price thingy ???

Spike :eek:

Tattoo boy :p

Lilah jr :p

Angel, torture her :D

Yay Harmony :D

Zombies :eek:

Wow :eek:

Better than seeing Angel fight with Spike over Buffy...

Cordy, do something...

Lindsay, shut up...:rolleyes:

She stopped it :D

Lindsay shrunk :eek:

This sure is a reason to celebrate :)

Angel, you can beat them :D

Cordy's last words :(

R.I.P Cordelia Chase :(

Next time: Looks like Angel did some things in WWII...
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
Since posting my revised review, a correction needs to be made.



I've discovered that I had initially misunderstood this information.
Buffy was not meant to appear alongside Cordelia in this episode, she was meant to be the featured guest character instead of Cordelia. Details still unknown.

My apologies for the confusion.

In addition, I believe SMG's reason for declining was that she'd quit the role after the finale of season 7 of BTVS.
As I understand it she was unable to appear in Season 5 as requested by Joss due to her Aunt's death and then her subsequent shooting schedule with The Grudge. She was able to appear for the finale but Joss had decided against that so as not to take away the attention from the main Angel characters.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Joss was dumb to think that Buffy would take away the focus of the Angel cast.

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
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As I understand it she was unable to appear in Season 5 as requested by Joss due to her Aunt's death and then her subsequent shooting schedule with The Grudge. She was able to appear for the finale but Joss had decided against that so as not to take away the attention from the main Angel characters.
I just thought it was because she'd quit Buffy.
Thanx for the insight.
 

Cangel1987

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I'm not sure how often I've already see that episode and it's still one of my favorite episode at the same time one of the saddest and frustrating.

I was glad that Cordy *was* back and they have finally kissing I was like – Yeah Finally! And every time I listen to the ringing phone I'm like Angel, no, don't answer the *silly* telefon.
 

DagonSphere

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It was nice to see the Old Cordelia again and to give the character a proper send-off, after how awfully they wrote her out in season four. The episode in itself however is fairly week, the plot is fairly uninspired and doesn't really go anywhere.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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I've never been a huge Cordelia fan, not at all. But I LOVED her snarky attitude with Eve in this episode.

Harmony volunteering to torture Eve was HILARIOUS. The way she kept hitting her, and how disappointed she was when told that Eve has begun to talk. 😂
 

Dania

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I love "You're welcome" I enjoy the whole episode and I am sooo glad that Cordelia was there. I was so happy when she was back.

I was satisfied, you could not even say it with words - and finally they have kissed and I was on cloud nine. I was more than happy. But the stupid phone was ringing and thought stop ringing. But the phones remain stubborn. I was upset so very very angry. That should not happen.

And after Cordelia disappeared and we found out why - I was all sad and all beaten. That should not be. No, under any circumstances :-( But unfortunately it was true and Angel's his facial expression did not make it any better.

She should have stay there until the end of the series. At least I would have liked it.
 

Cangel1987

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It's one of my all time favorite episode - Every time I watch this episode, I cry. Because I know exactly what will happen :-(

Nevertheless, I love this episode. And I always press the stop button before the stupid phone starts ringing. I just can't take it.

I also would have loved that Cordelia would have stayed until the end of the series.
 

Dania

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I fully agree with you :) It was destructive to write Cordelia out from the series. And I totally hate that :( Without Cordelia it wasn't the same.
 

spikenbuffy

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Sad for me to think that if AI would have left W&H in that episode like Angel wanted to, Fred would be alive :(
 
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