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Discussion of 7.07 "Conversations with Dead People" - Aired 11/12/02 (UPN-US)

Mr Trick

Scooby
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I recall enjoying the conversation between Buffy and Holden in this ep. The whole "inferiority complex about her superiority complex". :p

-Weird having the title of the ep and air date at the beginning...
-A little (lot) of Jack for Spikester
-I like this song, but the whole "sad Scoobies" montage is depressing!

-"Here we go." I still feel bad for Buffy and everything that happened in S6. Just seems so wrong that she has to just get back to normal living after all that.
-Ah, return of the dweebs. Andrew annoys me.
-Yup, and there's Dawn, disobeying Buffy, ruining her clothes, and breaking the house. Still the selfish gal, I see.
-Ugh, I forgot about Cassie in this one. She is SO creepy! (Awesome acting!)
-So...Dawn has a haunting going on. Where's the cell phone?! Good thing she acts rationally by smashing all the electronics...
-Love the vampire trying to get Buffy to remember him. Heh.
-Ahhh, mention of good ol' Scottie. Love listening to the easy way they are just chatting.
-If I was Dawn I would be out of that house so fast. I never got the mother's milk comment; just a blood reference or what?
-I wonder if house insurance in Sunnydale includes poltergeists...
-"Then we join her gang and possibly hang out at her house." So, why the change of heart, boys?
-Freaking Warren. Andrew is such a moron.
-Way to get at Willow. Makes me angry. :(
-Buffy getting shrinked in a cemetery. That in itself is a psychologist's imagery dream. "I think you're confusing me because you're evil." Haha.
-So, Buffy's only 21...but was drinking beer at the Bronze in S5? Bad Bronze bartenders.
-"Because I'm gonna win." She could have just staked him right there!
-Insane troll logic reference!!!!
-"Who could live with that for seven years and not feel superior?" I like that Buffy is finally getting some insight.
-Ugh, Dawn, take your own advice: "Get out! Get out! GET OUT!"
-Dead Joyce is rather scary...
-"I've got no worries. I'm dead." Heehee
-I would think Willow would be able to sense that Cassie isn't of the "good" side. But maybe not.
-Awww, Jonathan. He does have a kind heart.
-And there's the realization again that it doesn't matter if the Slayer has friends and family. She's still alone.
-Aw, Joyce. I know it isn't anything good, but nice to see her again.
-And Willow realizes something isn't quite right. Go Willow!
-I do feel bad for Dawn there. After all that, she gets that message. :( Though she should know better - Buffy already made the ultimate sacrifice for her. How much harder can it get?
-Stoopid Andrew. He needs to be slapped. A lot. And the blood graphic is horrible.
-Hmmm, vampy Spike. Haven't seen that in awhile. Now Buffy has to figure out what to do about that.

One of the creepiest eps, but I also like it. Though this is where the story line starts getting all sketchy for me. Balance of good vs. evil? Then shouldn't Whistler be prancing about? Isn't trying to destroy humanity always what evil is trying to do? Meh.
I think the less is more use of Spike in this episode works better than if he was given a bigger part. That we don't hear hin speak and hardly see him make it more of a surprise when he goes back to his old vampire ways.

Not sure how much I like the song, but I do think it works really well at the end, not so much the start.
 
This episode's pretty good.
Enjoyed Dawn's battle with the ghost, probably one of the more extreme things she's ever experienced.
And Willow and Cassie was just...sad, heartwrenching and then horrifying. The First was actually truly scary here.
The Trio stuff...vaguely annoying, but they were easily trumped by Holden Webster!
God, I hate this actor, something about him just bugs the hell out of me, same as he was in Firefly and in Angel. (he was Knox)
I mean, some of his lines were funny, but I just wanted him dusted right there and then. Why the hell did Spike sire this douche! :mad:

Overall, a pretty top-notch ep. :)
Disagree on the Trio this time. Warren is only given a small role so I don't even mind him. Danny Strong is always great, I think he works really well with Lenk and are given some interesting dialouge. It maybe my favourite Andrew episode. And sorry but I liked Holden too!:D
 
Damn, this is a sad episode and I don't even mean Willow's stuff. I mean Buffy. Buffy is having a conversation with a vampire. Seems simple enough but think about it for a second. Buffy is talking to an undead beast, not just talking, actually sharing her secrets and crying and it's like a therapy. Just what the...? And it's so normal to her, you know what I mean? Buffy's not like What in the hell am I doing?! there's no that God, I'm talking to a vamp, I must be brain damaged! moment either. Crazy.Friends? Nah, I'm just gonna pour my heart out to a random corpse! Not even Angel or Spike. How far gone is this chick? Does she still belong to the human world? What happened to her? When did this become acceptable? Normal? OK? It's sad, you know.
See that is just why it works for me. It taps into that surreal humour which Buffy does so far such as Spike opening up to Buffy's Mum. It also nicely fits with the theme of reflection and I can believe that Buffy would be taken a back by the thought of staking someone she went to school with. Also I have another reading of the whole thing which is that I believe that Buffy is in control and can stake him at anytime, but just prolongs it for his peace of mind.
 

amberjane

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ok im not sure if anything im gonna say was already said, theres just too many posts to read through...

so ive rewatched buffy a billion times since it ended but theres always a joke i missed, and i just picked up on one this episode- andrew and johnathan's mistranslation of 'from beneath you, it devours': it eats you starting with you butt XDDD!!!!

also i cant accept joyce as the first, whether the writers intended her to be, or joss didnt, whichever. two reasons: physical contact. dawn was scratched, things were moved and thrown... i could chalk that up to an agent of the first also being present, but it was never addressed. also, the following episode shows joyce in buffys dream. my opinion, that was the real joyce. the first can influence thoughts, but i dont think it would be telling buffy to take care of herself. the juxtaposition of joyce as the first and dream joyce makes it hard to accept.
 

Mr Trick

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ok im not sure if anything im gonna say was already said, theres just too many posts to read through...

so ive rewatched buffy a billion times since it ended but theres always a joke i missed, and i just picked up on one this episode- andrew and johnathan's mistranslation of 'from beneath you, it devours': it eats you starting with you butt XDDD!!!!

also i cant accept joyce as the first, whether the writers intended her to be, or joss didnt, whichever. two reasons: physical contact. dawn was scratched, things were moved and thrown... i could chalk that up to an agent of the first also being present, but it was never addressed. also, the following episode shows joyce in buffys dream. my opinion, that was the real joyce. the first can influence thoughts, but i dont think it would be telling buffy to take care of herself. the juxtaposition of joyce as the first and dream joyce makes it hard to accept.


I just think its meant to be Joyce as a Ghost or something. Also Dawn might be projecting a lot onto it because of the emotionally connection. Well in a dream anyone can say anything. If it was the first then I think they would say that just sucker Buffy in more, but if it was a dream chances are it had nothing to do with the first.
 

amberjane

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if it was the first in the dream, i think i just pictured it saying "you cant beat this thing." no if you dont rest following, shows too much concern
 

Mr Trick

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if it was the first in the dream, i think i just pictured it saying "you cant beat this thing." no if you dont rest following, shows too much concern
Think I will rewatch that episode as I don't have too much memory of it.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
also i cant accept joyce as the first, whether the writers intended her to be, or joss didnt, whichever. two reasons: physical contact. dawn was scratched, things were moved and thrown... i could chalk that up to an agent of the first also being present, but it was never addressed. also, the following episode shows joyce in buffys dream. my opinion, that was the real joyce. the first can influence thoughts, but i dont think it would be telling buffy to take care of herself. the juxtaposition of joyce as the first and dream joyce makes it hard to accept.
Nightmare on Revello Street? Freddy Kruger has competition!
 

gite63

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Sineya
Another great episode - I am now remembering why S7 is my 3rd favorite!

Since the first notes of the song (by Angie Hart, good choice, by the way, I love it), till the last one, the episode is full of emotions. And that was accomplished even with the episode having been written by 4 different writers: Jane Espenson (Dawn's scenes), Drew Goddard (the Trio's), Marti Noxon (Willow's) and the mighty Joss Whedon (Buffy and Holden's).

The First/Cassie - just heartbreaking... Will remembering Tara and then having her hopes (of having contact with her) crushed in such a scary manner... :(

Azura Jay (Cassie) delivered well her part, I like her. On the DVD commentary, it is said that the actress is a dead ring for the writer who created her character, Rebecca Rand Kirshner.

Buffy's conversation with Holden is great - it couldn't be different, since it was written by Joss, who very well knows his main character. Buffy opens up to the dead ex-colleague, and we get to understand a bit more of her psychic, how to be the Slayer affected her, her superiority/inferiority complex, and his relationship with her boyfriends, mainly with the last one, Spike (and it isn't me who is dubbing Spike a "boyfriend", it was Buffy/Joss who hinted him as such - Buffy acknowledges that he really loved her even without a soul, and next she is saying that she feels she doesn't deserve the love of "her friends and boyfriends"... :D

Spike killing again! That was unexpected. It was well done: he is just there, enjoying the evening with some girl, it seems a thing that won't go anywhere (he is just filling time on the episode) and then... :eek:

Dawn's part was very scary, but I prefer more talk and less shouting and breaking of things.

And then, Andrew and Jonathan... I like Andrew, but he really got away with murder... he killed Jonathan, and as much as he was being influenced by the First and the Seal, there wasn't much consequences for him - it was all swept under the rug. Poor Jonathan, his speech was so sweet.
 

Mr Trick

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Another great episode - I am now remembering why S7 is my 3rd favorite!

Since the first notes of the song (by Angie Hart, good choice, by the way, I love it), till the last one, the episode is full of emotions. And that was accomplished even with the episode having been written by 4 different writers: Jane Espenson (Dawn's scenes), Drew Goddard (the Trio's), Marti Noxon (Willow's) and the mighty Joss Whedon (Buffy and Holden's).

The First/Cassie - just heartbreaking... Will remembering Tara and then having her hopes (of having contact with her) crushed in such a scary manner... :(

Azura Jay (Cassie) delivered well her part, I like her. On the DVD commentary, it is said that the actress is a dead ring for the writer who created her character, Rebecca Rand Kirshner.

Buffy's conversation with Holden is great - it couldn't be different, since it was written by Joss, who very well knows his main character. Buffy opens up to the dead ex-colleague, and we get to understand a bit more of her psychic, how to be the Slayer affected her, her superiority/inferiority complex, and his relationship with her boyfriends, mainly with the last one, Spike (and it isn't me who is dubbing Spike a "boyfriend", it was Buffy/Joss who hinted him as such - Buffy acknowledges that he really loved her even without a soul, and next she is saying that she feels she doesn't deserve the love of "her friends and boyfriends"... :D

Spike killing again! That was unexpected. It was well done: he is just there, enjoying the evening with some girl, it seems a thing that won't go anywhere (he is just filling time on the episode) and then... :eek:

Dawn's part was very scary, but I prefer more talk and less shouting and breaking of things.

And then, Andrew and Jonathan... I like Andrew, but he really got away with murder... he killed Jonathan, and as much as he was being influenced by the First and the Seal, there wasn't much consequences for him - it was all swept under the rug. Poor Jonathan, his speech was so sweet.
This is a rare time where mutiple writers actually makes sense. As a rule I think too many chefs spoil the broth, but here since they are separate stories it makes sense to give each their own distinct individual feel, and certain writers do write certain characters better than others.

Nice write up on the episode. I'd say this along with Selfless is the standout episode of S7 and it ranks as one of the best ever too.
 

Scary and Veiny

Darth Rosenberg
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Aug 5, 2016
Messages
32
I love this episode.

The scenes with Dawn were positively creepy, and I think MT did a wonderful job. It could practically be a horror movie on its own.
Willow's scenes made me so sad, when "Cassie" was telling her how she couldn't see Tara because she killed people, and trying to goad her into suicide...

Also loved the stuff with Buffy and Holden especially when Buffy was lying on a grave like a psychiatrist's couch. Funny (and later chilling when she finds out that Spike's killing again).

And poor, poor Jonathan!

Also love the Angie Hart song.
 

GraceK

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The ending to this episode actually really upsets me after you see the whole season. Jonathan's death was actually really shocking when it happened, and upsetting. This is someone we have known since the beginning, and as much as he screwed up in season 6, he wasn't a bad guy. Even in6 he told Buffy's how to stop Warren, tried to help when Willow went bad, and in this episode especially he only wanted to help and be forgiven.

To have no one care at all that he died, and to be buddy buddy with murderer is sickening. Andrew had no consequences except a little crying. Now he's a trusted member of the scoobies working with Giles??? What he did was terrible and no one has a reaction.

I feel terrible for Jonathan.
 

Zenseem

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What a great episode. We get to see some great Dawn scenes here. She showed she's not the little get out, get out, GET OUT girl anymore.

Willow's scene were so sad and then Cassie/The First tries to talk her into killing herself... damn, totally unnecessary, dude.

I feel so bad for Jonathan. He was trying to do the right thing. Everytime I watch the show my Andrew hate grows a bit.

How great was Holden? He would make a good villain in a Spike kind of way. You'd like to see more of him.
 

Fool for Buffy

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I feel so bad for Jonathan. He was trying to do the right thing. Everytime I watch the show my Andrew hate grows a bit.

How great was Holden? He would make a good villain in a Spike kind of way. You'd like to see more of him.
People don't talk about Jonathan's death enough. I feel like it's one of the saddest of the series because of his speech right before about how much he still cares about everyone from high school that completely ignored him. As far as Holden, he was really entertaining, which is why Joss cast the actor Jonathan Woodward as Knox on Angel season 5. But Knox was a truly terrible human being.
 

GraceK

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People don't talk about Jonathan's death enough. I feel like it's one of the saddest of the series because of his speech right before about how much he still cares about everyone from high school that completely ignored him. As far as Holden, he was really entertaining, which is why Joss cast the actor Jonathan Woodward as Knox on Angel season 5. But Knox was a truly terrible human being.
I agree. This really burns my toast that Andrew, ANDREW, becomes a scooby. He murdered Jonathan in cold blood then sheds a few tears and it's all good????? Jonathan should have been the one to eventually join the gang, we have known him since season 2. Yet one more reason season 7 sucks monkey balls. This show used to mean something, season 7 turns it all to shit. Love of an actor takes over story development and everyone sucks.
 
B
Btvs fan
In Angel S5. The fact that Buffy puts him of all people in charge of a bunch of teenage girls is horryfing

Give Us A Kiss

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Weird way to start an episode...

I feel bad for everyone already...

Andrew and Johnathan :eek:

I'm assuming that whatever happenes in Mexico stays is Mexico, right ??? o_O

Dawn, not in the house... :rolleyes:

Dawn, why are you microwaving a single marshmallow ??? o_O

What's Cassie doing here ??? She's dead :eek:

What movie is Darn watching here ???

Buffy, stake him...

This must be driving Dawn crazy :(

Holden hasn't heard of the slayer ??? o_O

Scott Hope is gay, why am I not surprised ???

Poor Dawn :(

Johnathan is right, Andrew is a huge wuss...

Warren :eek:

Warren is not Warren, he is speaking a bit funny...

At least Tara is having a good afterlife... :)
Meanwhile Spike is busy drinking himself to oblivion...

Buffy, you have commitment issues too...

Buffy, it's not your fault that your parents got divorced...

Buffy, stake him...

That was the place Buffy fell into a grave thingy in WTTH :eek:

Holden looks a bit like the Prime Minister of Canada...

I knew that magic wasn't good for Willow...

Johnathan doesn't give a damn if no one cares about him ;)

Why does Dawn have to suffer through this ??? :(

Buffy is admitting to being a hypocrite, am I hearing her correctly ??? o_O

Dying is not the solution to Willow's problem :mad:

How do the Summer's afford all the repairs that the house needs ??? o_O

Andrew :mad:

R.I.P Johnathan :(

Next time: Spike may have gone evil again...
 

Priceless

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We know it's going to bea different kind of episode because of the titles and the song tells us it's an episode about being alone. The episode is split into five sections and none of the main characters interact.

Dawns section is my favourite. I love her pretending to be a Slayer, like a child playing games. She has to stop playing once she realises she's under serious attack, and she is really brave. She sounds just like Buffy in The Body when she says 'Mom? Mommy'. Her screaming is epic and a call back to her younger self in S5. Joyce is incredibly creepy and matter-of-fact when she tells Dawn 'When it's bad Buffy won't choose you, she'll be against you'

Love Buffy and Holden's whole conversation. Holden is so enthusiastic about being a vampire, which is fun. Their conversation is a supposed therapy session. I have no idea if anything Holden says is valid, but it's interesting to hear Buffy reveal her feelings about her life. They talk about high school and their shared past and this is echoed later in a conversation between Jonathan and Andrew.

Holden eventually reveals that he was sired by Spike. This reveal is a shock because he not only has a chip but a soul, how is this happening? Damn my Spike loving heart, but he looks his best in S7 and he is so cute and boyish when he's walking this girl home and appearing all coy while stood on the front porch seemingly saying 'oh no, we've only just met, I won't stay for coffee'

Willows scenes are the most emotional. Alyson Hannigan crying is a heart breaker, and when she was talking to Tara (through Cassie) I thought I was going to cry with her. Cassie was great too, just the right amount of sweetness turned to malevolence.

Jonathan, Andrew and Warren are the least interesting section. Andrew's dream of joining Buffy's gang and hanging at her house is unfortunately prophetic. Jonathan looking back at his school days echoes Buffy and Holden's conversation. The past and the present play into each other and the past is always affecting the now. Jonathan and not Andrew had to die because the audience has had a longer relationship to him and were more attached. Andrew's murder wouldn't have had the impact Joss was looking for. I've never been a Jonathan fan, so his death didn't sadden me as perhaps it should.

A great episode. The big bad is finally revealed, and seems pretty scary and has done some damage. Secrets have been revealed and we now want to know what Joyces cryptic message means and why Spike is killing again, and why does the big bad want the most powerful witch on earth to kill herself :)
 

Omelas90

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I love Andrew and this episode makes me want to spank him erotically.

...

What?
 

spikenbuffy

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Great episode, love the end with the music and the revelations, so well done.
 

Nix

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The Casey bit was a tad creepy for me... good but creepy!
 
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