Discussion of 7.07 "Conversations with Dead People" - Aired 11/12/02 (UPN-US)

[DeadlyDuo]

I agree that's very problematic in the depiction of Spike, that we just hear about his evilest deeds, rather than see them. Also, his reputation may have outrun the reality, as in Giles thinking his name is due to torturing people with spikes. Or is that true? We never know for sure. We need that dissertation that one of the watchers wrote on him.

I'm convinced that the victims Spike tortured with railroad spike were the "girls Dawn's age". There had to be something about those victims that made it noteworthy for Spike to get his name rather than just the method. He seemed to get the name Spike very quickly. In the mineshaft scene when Angelus called Spike William the Bloody and Spike corrected him, they said they barely got out of London alive. I think it was set the same year as Spike's siring which means it would've taken place not long after since they were in London when Spike got sired.

People disagree with me about the "girls Dawn's age", however in my opinion, it doesn't make sense narratively to have a character admit to raping underage girls when you want the audience to have sympathy for that character's plight. Just because the victim is female doesn't mean the crime was rape.

 

[katmobile]

I'm convinced that the victims Spike tortured with railroad spike were the "girls Dawn's age". There had to be something about those victims that made it noteworthy for Spike to get his name rather than just the method. He seemed to get the name Spike very quickly. In the mineshaft scene when Angelus called Spike William the Bloody and Spike corrected him, they said they barely got out of London alive. I think it was set the same year as Spike's siring which means it would've taken place not long after since they were in London when Spike got sired.

People disagree with me about the "girls Dawn's age", however in my opinion, it doesn't make sense narratively to have a character admit to raping underage girls when you want the audience to have sympathy for that character's plight. Just because the victim is female doesn't mean the crime was rape.

I agree with much of this and what he does implies something horrible - he says about taking enough to keep them alive so they cry when you do the act to them because it's not worth it if they don't cry but I wonder thinking about it if it's not even Spike who did it. Self controlled torture if any kind doesn't seem to be his modus operandi. In Damage he said he didn't really see the victims he just was energised by enacting violence against them that doesn't gel with keeping someone alive enough for them to cry when he does something awful to them - that seems a more Angelus thing.

I think the railroad spikes thing was probably the lady at the party who made the comment about that she'd rather have that done to her than listen to William's poetry and other people.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

that seems a more Angelus thing.

Agreed. There's 8 years between Spike's siring and Angelus' ensoulment where Spike could've witnessed many of Angelus' deeds. Given that Angelus is considered one of the worst vampires in history, it would make sense that Spike would use an example of Angelus' work and pretend he was responsible so that Buffy would decide to stake him.

 

[Stake fodder]

@katmobile and @DeadlyDuo
Interesting discussion of Spike's torture speech. But since that took place in "Never Leave Me," I put my comments there, as I hadn't commented on that episode yet.

it doesn't make sense narratively to have a character admit to raping underage girls when you want the audience to have sympathy for that character's plight.

True, but the writers are always messing around with the audience's sympathies when it comes to Spike!

Self controlled torture if any kind doesn't seem to be his modus operandi. In Damage he said he didn't really see the victims he just was energised by enacting violence against them that doesn't gel with keeping someone alive enough for them to cry when he does something awful to them - that seems a more Angelus thing.

That's an excellent point. Controlled torture requires a certain cold, methodical calculation, which doesn't sound much like Spike. Though he did threaten to torture Dru.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Though he did threaten to torture Dru.

Spike and Dru were into S&M so the definition of "torture" in that context is completely different. Spike doesn't want to harm Dru, he just wants to convince her to give him a second chance (and it worked because they briefly reunited before she then left him for a fungus demon).

 

[thetopher]

That's an excellent point. Controlled torture requires a certain cold, methodical calculation, which doesn't sound much like Spike

We don't have to speculate. Spike was shown torturing Angel. Twice. He very much seemed to enjoy it being evil an' all.

 

[Puppet]

We don't have to speculate. Spike was shown torturing Angel. Twice. He very much seemed to enjoy it being evil an' all.

Except it wasn't Spike doing the actual torturing. Either time. Though I don't think it's cause he's not evil enough, he just doesn't have the patience for it.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Except it wasn't Spike doing the actual torturing. Either time. Though I don't think it's cause he's not evil enough, he just doesn't have the patience for it.

Agreed. He was starting to get impatient when Marcus was torturing Angel.

 

[thetopher]

Except it wasn't Spike doing the actual torturing. Either time.

He joined in with Marcus eventually, we just didn't actually see it because of a cut-away.

I would agree that Spike lacks the temperament to torture for information, because he's too impatient in general, but evil people tend to torture because its fun, not because they want a specific thing.