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Discussion of 7.09 "Never Leave Me" - Aired 11/26/02 (UPN-US)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Sineya
#1
Spike is held captive in the Summers home while the Scoobies ponder their options in the aftermath of his murder spree. Willow finds Andrew buying blood and decides to take him prisoner also. While they try to decide what to do next, the gang are interrupted by the mysterious hooded figures called "Harbingers" or "Bringers" - the minions of the First Evil.
Source: TV.com

Discuss this episode here!
 

VisionGirl

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Sineya
#2
The Willow/Andrew interaction was funny, although I wish that she was the one who got to interrogate him. I'm sure the Gang realized that would NOT be a good idea LOL.

I don't know if this is true, but just read this on Wikipedia:
Willow's enormous powers, even if she is not fully in control of them, forced the writers to figure out a way to keep her from being part of every fight. Here, she is immediately knocked unconscious when the Bringers attack. The same plot device is used in "Get It Done".
If this is true, I think it's lame. Giles tells Willow that the magic is a part of her now, so she has to deal with it. It would've been much more interesting to see her attempt to deal with it, rather than hide from it all season.

I'm also reading that apparently the title comes from the lyrics of "Early One Morning", Spike's trigger song:
Early one morning just as the sun was rising,
I heard a young maid sing in the valley below,
Oh don't deceive me, Oh never leave me,
How could you use a poor maiden so?


The first time I saw this I was utterly shocked when the Council's HQs were blown up. The Council, or at least Watchers, have existed even before Slayers. They could've been a big help to Buffy et al this season, & I think it would've been interesting to watch them humble themselves & admit how much they need her as well. But it really gives us the idea of how formidable The First is.

But when Buffy finally realizes that this is The First, I thought "It's about time!". She's not stupid, & she's dealt with it before, you would've thought that she would've seen the similarities between how it tried to manipulate Angel & what it's doing to Spike.
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
Glad I read back in the thread, because I was wondering how this ep got its name!
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#3
Xander and Anya are hilarious in this episode. haha when Anya accidentally slaps Xander :D I think she should have done that a lot sooner though.
It's really the only thing I can remember from it, that and Andrew at the butcher shop.


Best line:
Anya - "You think this is a game junior?!"
 

Nathan

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#4
No matter how many times I see the ending, I always jump out of my skin when the Council's building explodes :D
 
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Black Thorn
#5
I loved watching the Scoobies with Andrew, Willow was the best. I like the Buffy/Spike scenes. I cant believe I'm writing this but I could almost like the Buffy/Spike relationship, if Buffy wasnt so mean to him. She has moments of being nice to him but when he opens up to her she shuts him out.

I thought the Ubervamp looked a bit like The Master.
 

PassionBecoming

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#6
-Ugh, I always feel so bad for Buffy's house. Her insurance premiums must be insanely high! I wonder if there's some sort of supernatural coverage for Sunnydale residents...
-Andrew is such a moron. Ugh.
-Principal Wood is awesome. I can't even imagine having to deal with high schoolers these days like that.
-"Lapsed employee", eh? So when Giles left, he officially resigned as Buffy's Watcher. Interesting.
-"Do you want me to kill Anya?" Haha, Willow. Though why does she hate her so much now?
-Aw, poor piggie. :( Run, piggie, run!!!
-Neo. Love the butcher. Heh.
-I kind of wish Willow had done something to Andrew. Not kill him...just...turn him into something or...I don't know. And Andrew is still a weak moron.
-Xander and Anya as good cop-bad cop. Heehee.
-Feeding Spike blood from a bag. That has to just be...icky.
-Love that moment of Spike, "Meaning I have come to redefine the meaning of pain and suffering since I feel in love with you." And Buffy hasn't separated William the Bloody from soulful Spike yet. I find that interesting, since with Angel she did right away.
-Aw, Xander misses Anya lots.
-LOVE Spike breaking through the wall to grab Andrews. Awesome attack scene.
-Yay for Army man Xander for figuring out the trigger! Even if it is from movies. :)
-I hope someone found the pig in basement. :( I don't want her to starve or get eaten by hyena people.
-Principal Wood found Jonathan. ?!
-Good thing Buffy has shackles in her basement...huh?
-Spike warning Buffy about the "real him". Very ominous.
-"It's not love. We both know that."
-"I believe in you, Spike." I adore Buffy's pep talk to him. It is very reminiscent of "Amends". She cares for him and knows he will be a powerful ally to have.
-Freaking creepy Bringers. All busting up the house. Again.
-Uh, Woods, what are you doing? I don't remember this part.
-Buffy using Andrew as a weapon. Heh.
-Ah, "Amends" reference again.
-Would have been neat to see what the Council would do if it made it to the Hellmouth.
-So, I still don't really understand why Jonathan's blood didn't open the seal. I thought The First used Spike because she needed "evil" (vampire) blood, but it said it was going to use Andrew, so...hmmm.
-Hellmouth vampires. No good comes from those. Must be the same rule of the story Anya told us about "watered down" demons walking the earth.
-Ubervamp seems pretty pleased to be above ground.

And now the story line begins to go downhill and get messed up for me. Too many questions. Reminds me of the end of S5, too. Too much story being crammed into too little time or something.
 
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#8
Andrew's scene in the butcher's shop was funny.
I liked Xander and Anya's fake good cop/bad cop routine.
I wish Buffy had stayed listening at the door. If she wanted to find out more about Spike's hallucinations she'd have been better off not interrupting.
All I kept thinking during Spike's outburst is "More repairs needed on Buffy's house!" D: Still, at least she's being paid more than she was at the DMP.
You can see Jonathan's eye twitch when Robin is burying him
How the hell did dawn pitch up a fight against the Bringers? Maybe they were trying to make her look like the next slayer.
I still think it was a shame that the council got blown up. They have not have always been there to help Buffy directly, but it was a comfort to have people like that aware of the dangers she was facing.
 
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Sineya
#9
Good episode.

Willow finding Andrew at the butcher shop, Xander and Anya interrogating him, and Buffy using him as a weapon - fun moments! :D

Xander talking how he feels about living without Anya: very touching, but let's not forget that it was him who dug his own grave... :rolleyes:

Nice seeing Xander figuring out about the trigger - and Anya thinking he was talking about Roy Rogers's horse! :)

Spike: "Saw a man about a girl" - yeah, you did, indeed! And Buffy having total trust in him: "you faced the monster inside of you and you fought back" - that's Spike's journey in a few words. And about the killing Spike did under the First's control, Buffy has the last word: "It's not your fault, you are not the one doing this".

So, Spike is kidnapped to be bled and open the Seal - which Jonathan's blood didn't accomplish - and I don't think the problem was that he was anemic. Maybe it was necessary vampire's blood then.

I have no idea why The First wanted Andrew to kill a piglet though. :rolleyes: The First also said that he wanted to use Andrew's blood, but it triggered Spike to kill him, so how could it use Andrew to open the Seal? Unless The First was planning to find someone to bled Andrew before he met Willow - but then why the pig's blood from the butcher shop?

And finally, we have a feral ubervamp crawling from a hell hole wearing leather...
 
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Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
#11
I love the running joke of everyone not knowing Andrew's name. lol BTVS is always so good at keeping a long running joke going. (Like Anya and bunnies)
My favorite running joke is the world without shrimp. Not knowing Andrew's name is really good too tho, especially since every single character has to ask, and the answer is always "Tucker's brother"
 

Give Us A Kiss

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#12
Those previously on's are taking way too long...

Willow, I don't think that Buffy knows anything at this point...

Andrew, don't listen to him :mad:

Why does Spike need to be tied again ??? o_O

If so, then why is there a permanent record ??? o_O

I would like to find Giles too...

Andrew, please don't kill the pig...

Andrew seems to have ambiguous disorder...

Willow :eek:

Would the scoobies torture Johnathan as much as they tortured Andrew ???

Spike, it must be the demon...

Anya is a bit of a psycho...

Xander, Andrew is not 5...

Anya :mad:

Buffy... :mad:

Spike has changed since he got a soul, and not in a good way, he isn't as fun to watch anymore :(

Xander, this is creepy...

Robin M Wood, what does the M stand for ??? o_O

Robin, get out of there...

Buffy has chains in her basement, not surprising...

Spike, I don't wanna know...

What the hell ??? :eek:

At least Johnathan gets a resting place...

Smart move, Buffy ;)

Meanwhile, the search for Giles continues...

Which Hellmouth ???

Are they cutting out his penis or something ??? o_O

It has opened :eek:

Next time: Giles is still alive :)
 
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#13
Why did the Bringers attack the house , why was Spikes blood needed to open the hell mouth, Buffy and the potentials open the hell mouth the First seemed to have limit less numbers of Bringers why not use them ? Silly silly me of course Buffy had to be rescue Spike if not Spike would have no story .We see our hero degraded yet again by rescuing her abuser and would be rapist .....and what was the trigger for ?
 
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#14
Why did the Bringers attack the house , why was Spikes blood needed to open the hell mouth, Buffy and the potentials open the hell mouth the First seemed to have limit less numbers of Bringers why not use them ? Silly silly me of course Buffy had to be rescue Spike if not Spike would have no story .We see our hero degraded yet again by rescuing her abuser and would be rapist .....and what was the trigger for ?
Story-wise only, the trigger was so Buffy could be shown as the only one to find the good in Spike, to have faith in him despite all, and such love would rehabilitate him (turning the beast into a prince) and he'd be so grateful that she stood beside him when he was at his worst and all others rejected him that he'd never leave her (bonus points if he then does the same in reverse, which he does). It's a common them in what I call "romance drivels" (too many books and movies and awful fanfics use this trope/formula) which is why I call the Spuffy arc of seasons 6-7 romance drivel.
 
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#15
Really enjoyable episode. The opening scene is all about 'what shall we do with Spike' and he is the central theme of the episode. We even have an Andrewised version of him.

Once again Xander surprises us by removing himself from any discussion about Spike, and it is Dawn and Anya who are most intent in seeing him being punished for his actions previously. Spike himself understands that he is dangerous; 'If I get free someones gonna die'.

Spike is going through withdrawls and Buffy is obviously concerned about him. She's place him in her bedroom, doesn't put him immediately in the basement, but on the top floor, in her room, where she feeds him blood. If she doesn't have real feelings for him now, then I don't know what any of that is about.

They talk in a way they've never done before. Spike talks about how falling in love with Buffy bought him pain. Buffy tells him to stop feeling sorry for himself. With a soul he finally realises that their previous relationship was built upon Buffy's self-loathing, which he understands now because he feels that way about himself. It's a really beautiful converversation between two people who've been through a lot together.

Spike is eventually moved to the basement and Buffy is there to tend to him. He begs her to kill him, tries to goad her into it, but she refutes him, saying it's not hate or pain that's keeping him alive, it's because she saw a change in him. She saw that he fought the monster inside, risked everything to be a better man, and she believes in him. She loves him. I will not believe anything different, she loves him.

We see more of Robin Wood in this episode, and we're still left no knowing which side he's on, though I have to say I found him laid back, cool and very likeable. Andrew tries to slay a piglet, which must be a nod to The Pack. The Watchers Coucil make an appearance and we're all set up to think they are going to play a big part in this season. Quentin Travers even gives a rallying speech, and then the Council blows up!

Love Willows scenes with Andrew. She seems to be able to control herself well when Andrews talks about Tara and Warrens deaths, and I think she does well not to hurt Andrew. Buffy is amazing in this episode. She's the one who pieces it all together, understands the importance of the song and Spike talking to himself, and when the Bringers attack (and that's a great fight scene) it's Buffy who realises who they are up against this season.

The episode ends with Spike naturally. He's being bled to re-open the seal, and we have out first look at an older version of the vampire, the Turok Han. The ending is pretty exciting and makes me want to watch the next episode immediately.
 

Fool for Buffy

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#17
He begs her to kill him, tries to goad her into it, but she refutes him, saying it's not hate or pain that's keeping him alive, it's because she saw a change in him. She saw that he fought the monster inside, risked everything to be a better man, and she believes in him. She loves him. I will not believe anything different, she loves him.
Totally with you here. I just don't understand how others can watch this scene and see anything differently. It's so obvious when she says she believes in him that she loves him. Another point about this is I love how Spike tries to claim its "window dressing" because he still is convinced her killing him is the right thing to do. And she calls his bluff rather brilliantly before making that glorious speech.
 
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#18
I like First!Warren "Don't think about Babe."
I like First!Warren too, but I pretty much love every incarnation of The First :)
 
Totally with you here. I just don't understand how others can watch this scene and see anything differently. It's so obvious when she says she believes in him that she loves him. Another point about this is I love how Spike tries to claim its "window dressing" because he still is convinced her killing him is the right thing to do. And she calls his bluff rather brilliantly before making that glorious speech.
Yes! It's so brilliant. The way they're facing each other and he's straining on those chains. Who knows where that conversation would have gone, if the damn Bringers didn't interrupt :)
 
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#19
He begs her to kill him, tries to goad her into it, but she refutes him, saying it's not hate or pain that's keeping him alive, it's because she saw a change in him.
I've been thinking about that goading today and I wondered about its authenticity. Does it fit his MO or is he saying the worst thing he can think to say to her?
 
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#20
I've been thinking about that goading today and I wondered about its authenticity. Does it fit his MO or is he saying the worst thing he can think to say to her?
I'm not sure it does fit, especially when he talks about damaging his victims just enough to make them cry. That does sound more like Angelus than the fists and fur flying Spike. It's hard to know if he's speaking the truth or if he's just suicidal and wants Buffy to end his suffering, or if he believes he needs to die for the safety of others.

It's interesting that Buffy says 'You don't know me. You don't even know yourself' and Spike talks about 'window dressing' and Buffy says 'be easier wouldn't it, if it were an act'. The monster that he's talking about could be the act, unreal and based on Angelus maybe.