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Discussion of 7.10 "Bring On The Night" - Aired 12/17/02 (UPN-US)

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
8,021
Location
UK
@TriBel I got lost in this episode. I watched it twice and I thought I can't even review it because my brain is too small :D
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,675
Location
Manchester
LOL! I know what you mean. I've identified what I think are two references to Shakespeare and (possibly one to Sylvia Plath - all I know about Plath is Daddy!). I can't put my money where my mouth is because it involves pretending I've read Othello when I haven't and Hamlet which I have (but to be honest I was that long ago it could have been a proof given to me by the bard himself). :(The underground scene is possibly a reference to the myth Orpheus and Eurydice - I know it occurs elsewhere in the series. TBH - I think the writers are showing off. If the wheel is a reference to Leonardo's Vetruvian man it's quite interesting (Oh cr*p - it's not - I'm boring:(). It's usually used to illustrate the idea that man is the measure of all things - which I could have fun with (I've just said that? Kill me now!!)

I wondered about the reference you made to the First appearing as Joyce and I thought perhaps it was more complicated than that.:D Prefix everything that follows with IMO. On both occasions Buffy's asleep (isn't she?) - so aren't both these occasions dreams? If so, it could be a) a manifestation of The First in her dreams; b) Buffy unconsciously manifesting her Mother as the First or c) it could be Buffy unconsciously manifesting Joyce - no First involved. I'm not sure.

In the prologue, Xander wakes Buffy. She's been doing a “little dream talking” – dreams are the royal road to the unconscious. The talking cure is therapy (a feature of the series). It's possible that all the characters are simultaneously aspects of her and themselves (Andrew’s "fugue state") AND representing concepts. It’s displacement and condensation – it’s how the manifest content of a dream emerges from the latent wishes/fears she's repressed. I presume she’s turning her own unconscious wishes and fears into a narrative she (and we) can understand (LOL!) in order to make sense of them. In which case, everything in the scene is probably a metaphor. It could be read simply as realism but that doesn't really explain why she was shown waking up. I'm mentioning the following because they're Spike-centric - I'm ignoring any references to her wanting World Peace and Saving Orphans on the grounds I don't think you'd be interested. :)

"Sleeping Ugly would come to. He's been out all night" Andrew is also Spike - just as she could also be Dawn. Is Spike a sleeping beauty or a sleeping ugly? "If we're gonna rescue Spike, we need to figure out how to fight this thing". That's both "we" and "I". She needs to fight the Ubervamp to actually rescue Spike - she needs to fight a vampire's instinct (and the personalities within him) in order to have a future with him (which possibly feeds into the discussion we were having on feeding). Bugger - Spike said "kill me...you don't know what I'm capable of" in the previous episode - she does "kill him" - his worst side - when she kills the UV next week (sorry for the spoiler!). It's Showtime because she's unconsciously showing people their relationship when previously she'd hidden it. There are other examples - to do with here being caught in a loop - and it all fits but they're more tedious than this!

I'll get my coat...On the subject of which...does she wear a black leather coat in OMWF?
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
8,021
Location
UK
LOL! I know what you mean. I've identified what I think are two references to Shakespeare and (possibly one to Sylvia Plath - all I know about Plath is Daddy!). I can't put my money where my mouth is because it involves pretending I've read Othello when I haven't and Hamlet which I have (but to be honest I was that long ago it could have been a proof given to me by the bard himself). :(The underground scene is possibly a reference to the myth Orpheus and Eurydice - I know it occurs elsewhere in the series. TBH - I think the writers are showing off. If the wheel is a reference to Leonardo's Vetruvian man it's quite interesting (Oh cr*p - it's not - I'm boring:(). It's usually used to illustrate the idea that man is the measure of all things - which I could have fun with (I've just said that? Kill me now!!)

I wondered about the reference you made to the First appearing as Joyce and I thought perhaps it was more complicated than that.:D Prefix everything that follows with IMO. On both occasions Buffy's asleep (isn't she?) - so aren't both these occasions dreams? If so, it could be a) a manifestation of The First in her dreams; b) Buffy unconsciously manifesting her Mother as the First or c) it could be Buffy unconsciously manifesting Joyce - no First involved. I'm not sure.

In the prologue, Xander wakes Buffy. She's been doing a “little dream talking” – dreams are the royal road to the unconscious. The talking cure is therapy (a feature of the series). It's possible that all the characters are simultaneously aspects of her and themselves (Andrew’s "fugue state") AND representing concepts. It’s displacement and condensation – it’s how the manifest content of a dream emerges from the latent wishes/fears she's repressed. I presume she’s turning her own unconscious wishes and fears into a narrative she (and we) can understand (LOL!) in order to make sense of them. In which case, everything in the scene is probably a metaphor. It could be read simply as realism but that doesn't really explain why she was shown waking up. I'm mentioning the following because they're Spike-centric - I'm ignoring any references to her wanting World Peace and Saving Orphans on the grounds I don't think you'd be interested. :)


I'll get my coat...On the subject of which...does she wear a black leather coat in OMWF?
It does not surprise me that it gets even more complicated :) Of course if makes far more sense that Joyce is a dream. I assumed she was The First becasue she was so negative, but it certainly fits that she's speaking Buffy's own beliefs. The Andrew scene was over my head and I didn't understand it at all and I'm not sure I do even now. I think I have to watch this episode again and again, and I'll still not pick up on everything that's going on :)
 

emnemnemnem

Townie
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Messages
27
Age
24
So in this episode, we have the Scooby gang researching the First, Giles and some Potentials paying a visit, and Spike being beaten by an agent of the First.

We really see Buffy struggling in this episode, both internally and externally. Her internal struggles come from her fear of failing the Scoobies, Giles, the Potentials, and the world by not being able to defeat the First. She is clearly afraid of the First, and Willow's inability to perform magic and Spike's inability to help (because he's MIA) augment this dread. Externally, she is harmed by the ancient vampire, an agent of the First. We see her being thrown around like no demon has thrown her around before. Usually, she has the upper hand, or someone else comes in to assist her. However, this time around, the vampire clearly has the advantage, being more powerful than regular vampires. It is unable to be killed with methods used to kill normal vampires, so Buffy is quite stuck, not knowing how to defeat this guy. Additionally, no one can come to save Buffy, as Buffy is the one with most power; that's why everyone is depending on her to save the world. What perplexes me, though, is why the vampire just left her under all that rubble in the end instead of killing her. Isn't that what the First wants, anyway? All the slayers killed, especially the strongest one?

Though her external conflicts aren't resolved at the end, her internal ones are, to a degree. This is shown in her motivational speech towards the Scoobies, Giles, and the Potentials. One quote of hers really stood out to me...
Buffy: From now on we won't just face our worst fears, we will seek them out.
She was afraid of failing the others. She was afraid of confronting the ancient vampire because of the possibility that she might die, that there may not be anyone left to save the world. But now that she has faced the vampire, she realizes that continually doing so is the only way any of them will have a shot at defeating the First. Buffy knows that they can't just wait for the First to prepare itself, to make itself stronger, to conjure up more agents to use, to come to them; Buffy knows that they must seek out the First themselves, no matter how scary the true evil is, while it is more unprepared that it will be if given more time.

Truthfully, I don't really know how to feel about the Potentials. I think Annabelle was a little driven crazy by fear, as she went running out of the house. Without a weapon. Like, how stupid can you be? Of course, it's dangerous in the house, but the house at least contains weapons and a Slayer.

It is absolutely heart-wrenching to see Spike being tortured. But it is absolutely heart-melting to see Spike blatantly refuse the First's requests to join its side, even though all the pain Spike is being put through would stop if he accepted. And...
Drusilla: [as The First] And what makes you think you have a choice? What makes you think you will ever be any good at all in this world?
Spike: She does. Because she believes in me.

I loved this. So cute. It shows what Spike is holding onto through this utter pain: words from the girl he loves.
 

Ethanrayne

Townie
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
12
Age
25
Location
sweden
I like Kennedy, i think she's the only one of the potentials that acts like a slayer and not like a scared little girl. I also like that she helped Willow move on.
But I really wish the potentials wouldnt all have had to stay with them in their house, they got way too much screentime and it makes me not really like s7 after this ep. they couldve stayed someplace else and been protected by willows magic or something.
 

Stake fodder

Soulless
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
48
Location
Caught on a root
I was not fan of Dawn in previous seasons, but she has at least one scene in every S7 episode that just charms the heck out of me, in this case the way she is coldly determined to slap Andrew awake. She may not be a Potential, but she definitely has untapped potential.

I liked the idea of the worst evil being psychological, since you can't escape your own mind. But it is difficult to convey, especially after everyone's onto the ghost thing. Still, I wish they had worked on this plot thread more, instead of switching focus to the Turok-Hans.

First-Dru seems rather insulted that Spike says the real Dru was crazier. Score one for Spike, getting under the First's skin!

"Afraid we have a slight apocalypse." I've always loved Giles's gift for understatement. There is an interesting juxtaposition of Spike saying, "She believes in me," and Buffy eavesdropping as Giles doubts her.

I love Buffy's speeches to the Potentials, but the Potentials themselves get on my nerves. I'm glad they didn't have the budget to have them in a number of scenes.
 
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