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Discussion of 7.17 "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Aired 3/25/03 (UPN-US)

W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
It is an insult to say that Faith isn't as worthy for Spike, who is the cheater in this situation, as Buffy is.
Faith is more than worthy of Spike. We see Spike fall in love three times. Each time with a woman that is totally out of his league. After Buffy, there really is nowhere left to go, though.

The thing is, Spike's devotion to his chosen woman is his one redeeming feature. If you take that away, then he is just a regular douche bag.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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It is an insult to say that Faith isn't as worthy for Spike, who is the cheater in this situation, as Buffy is.
Spike has never cheated on Buffy! Take that back :D They didn't become a couple until Season 10, so anything prior to that is fair game :)

Faith and Spike would make an okay couple actually, but the emotional depth/history isn't there
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Faith and Spike would make an okay couple actually, but the emotional depth/history isn't there
Only if it happened before Spuffy. If Faith ran into Spike instead of Angel after her coma, they would have become the new Bonnie and Clyde.
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
Spike has never cheated on Buffy! Take that back :D They didn't become a couple until Season 10, so anything prior to that is fair game :)

Faith and Spike would make an okay couple actually, but the emotional depth/history isn't there
Yeah this was a hypothetical statement :D
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
2,663
Sineya
Spike and Nikki flashback, finally.

Wood, don't look...

Spike with a short jacket, no wonder he wanted a longer one...

Does Wood still have his mother's stake ??? o_O

Sunnydale high is way too quiet...something's coming.

Giles, not everyone can be old fashioned like you :oops:

Giles has a point, computers are so dumb they only understand one's and zero's...:rolleyes:

Yul Brenner ??? o_O

Spike, just put it in your brain...

That was awesome to watch, the effect was cool :)

Another flashback :D

William reminds me a bit of Giles...

It's that song, her voice is triggering me too...

Spike has a point, check up on Dawn...

Andrew, that's because Fred is a girl...

Willow, go and restore Angel's soul, you can do it :)

So this is the moment Spike was sired ??? nevermind...

I don't like snobs and elitists either... :mad:

Spike, don't sire your mom :mad:

No :mad:

Wood, don't kill Spike, Buffy would kill you...

Giles, tell Buffy the truth... :mad:

Buffy, you are a terrible leader...

Ouch :eek:

Wood :mad:

Wood has too much time on his hands...

Why does that song trigger Spike in the first place ??? o_O

Those are some painful flashbacks...:(

Buffy, you would have let Dawn die if it were now...

Spike, you don't deserve that jacket...

He said sorry :eek:

Spike is actually making sense now...:)

The trigger is gone :D

Giles, I don't think that Buffy is in reality mode...:rolleyes:

Wood is alive, but someone needs to get him to the ER...

Buffy, stop being a hypocrite...

Next time: Faith returns to Sunnydale.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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SPIKE
(exhilarated) Well, all right. Got the moves, don't you? I'm gonna ride you hard before I put you away, luv.

NIKKI
You sure about that? You actually look a little wet and limp to me. And I ain't your "luv."


Does anyone else find Nikki's line awkward, not just in the stiff delivery (though it could just be the delivery), but the actual line itself? Even Spike pulls a slightly annoyed "did you seriously just make an impotence joke?" face. He was practically rolling his eyes.
 

Mylie

Scooby
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SPIKE
(exhilarated) Well, all right. Got the moves, don't you? I'm gonna ride you hard before I put you away, luv.

NIKKI
You sure about that? You actually look a little wet and limp to me. And I ain't your "luv."


Does anyone else find Nikki's line awkward, not just in the stiff delivery (though it could just be the delivery), but the actual line itself? Even Spike pulls a slightly annoyed "did you seriously just make an impotence joke?" face. He was practically rolling his eyes.
I find Spike's line a lot more awkward and eye-roll inducing to be honest. No wonder she had to come up with a lame comeback.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
SPIKE
(exhilarated) Well, all right. Got the moves, don't you? I'm gonna ride you hard before I put you away, luv.

NIKKI
You sure about that? You actually look a little wet and limp to me. And I ain't your "luv."


Does anyone else find Nikki's line awkward, not just in the stiff delivery (though it could just be the delivery), but the actual line itself? Even Spike pulls a slightly annoyed "did you seriously just make an impotence joke?" face. He was practically rolling his eyes.
I don't think that actress was particularly good. She looked uncomfortable with every line. But I agree about impotence jokes seeming weird, unless they are between Spike and Willow in a dorm room:)
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
SPIKE
(exhilarated) Well, all right. Got the moves, don't you? I'm gonna ride you hard before I put you away, luv.
That's a rape joke, of course he's going to get an awkward reply from Nikki.
 

DeadlyDuo

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That's a rape joke, of course he's going to get an awkward reply from Nikki.
Not necessarily. "Ride you hard" could also mean put you through your paces eg people complain that their boss is "riding them hard" at work which means "on their case". Spike is saying he's going to put Nikki through her paces before he kills her. Nikki comes back with a lame impotence joke and Spike looks disappointed at that being the best response she can come up with.
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
Not necessarily. "Ride you hard" could also mean put you through your paces eg people complain that their boss is "riding them hard" at work which means "on their case". Spike is saying he's going to put Nikki through her paces before he kills her. Nikki comes back with a lame impotence joke and Spike looks disappointed at that being the best response she can come up with.
I certainly think that Spike's referring to sex when he talks about riding her hard but...you could take it either way.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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This episode is an examination of the parent/child relationship. The emphasis is on mother/son, but Giles and Buffy represent father/daughter, and perhaps even Buffy/Dawn as mother/daughter, and how these relationships affect who you are.

I love the first flashback, seeing child Robin being told he was not as important to his mother as the mission was. We later see flirting with Buffy again, commenting on how she reminds him of his mother. He's attracted to her because of those Slayer qualities, very much as Spike is.

We go to Giles and Buffy in the school. I think Giles' demeanour and the location are important to remind us of their teacher/child relationship, which disintergrates as Buffy forcefully disagree with him about Spike.

When Giles uses the Prokaryote stone on Spike he pronounces it 'procreate' and later Buffy calls it the 'prophylactic' stone which made me smile. I also like that Buffy runs to Spike when he's in pain :)

The next flashback shows the closeness between Anne and William. She praises him, they obviously love each other, though there is some gentle flirting there. He sits on the floor at her knee, like a child, not on the couch as an adult would. She sings to him, as you would a child.

When Spike is triggered, he accidentally hurts Dawn and suggests Buffy should go look after her (as his mother would have him) but more like Nikki, Buffy says 'She'll be okay. She's tough', but we see she isn't, that she has been hurt and it's Willow who is tending to her. Buffy later admits that she would sacrifice Dawn if it meant saving the world and it's only later, when the mission is complete, that she checks in on a sleeping Dawn.

The third flashback shows Spike sitting on the couch like a grown-up, kissing his second mother. Dru is not happy that William wants to bring his mum with them :) He believes he is doing the right thing in turning his mother, he believes he's doing it out of love and his continuing need to have her near.

Buffy totally diregards Giles and releases Spike. She refuses to listen to him. Robin steps in, and convinces Giles to go along with his plan to dust Spike. Giles says 'Buffy would never allow it', he realises he has little power in their relationship now and I think that knowledge is what forces him to go along with Wood.

BvVS has told us repeatedly that vengeance is a bad thing. Revenge never makes anyone feel better, achieves little, and often makes those looking for revenge feel worse. But Spike and Wood have to fight. It's the only way for either of them to come to terms with their past, for Robin to find some closure and for Spike to understand the trigger, and for both of them to free themselves from their pasts.

The last flashback is Spike killing his mother again. But she's no longer truly his mother, as he comes to determine that she is just the demon and he doesn't have to believe the things she says to him.

I love that Spike says 'I know Slayers' and Buffy confirms the truth of this when she says 'I have a mission to win this war, to save the world. I don't have time for vendettas. The mission is what matters'. And to be honest, I agree with her. Nikki would be so disappointed in Robin here, why is he wasting his time on revenge, when they have a war to fight.

By the end of the episode we see that Giles has finally got the General he wanted
GILES
Well, that doesn't change anything. What I told you is still true. You need to learn—

BUFFY
(looks at Giles) No, I think you've taught me everything I need to know. (shuts her door)

Great episode that looks at what it means to be a Slayer and how the past can hold you back. You can choose how you view the past and how you let if effect you in the present.
 

GraceK

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This episode makes me so mad. So I’ve realized on this latest rewatch that I had judged season 6 way to harshly. I finished that season satisfied, happy to have been wrong about my memory of it.

Such is not the case for Season 7. I love Spike...seriously. Especially when he wore that blue sweater in Beneath you. :) watching these seasons over again has re established some serious Spike Love for me...so it pains me to say I just hate him, and Buffy, in this episode.

First of all, Buffy is an ass for unchaining him. Giles has a very good point about his trigger, and he’s actually trying to help. So far Buffy has refused to see reason when it comes
To him, and as soon as Spike complains about the pain of this method she unchains him and goes about her business, shooting Giles death glares. Say what??? Regardless of her love for Spike, he is actually a very real threat , who the First is able to control. It’s in everyone’s best interest to try to fix his trigger. She has made him a priority to the point where she’s a massive hypocrite when she says it’s the
Mission that matters. No it’s not...for her it’s been about Spike.

I don’t agree with Wood being underhanded and trying to murder Spike. I understand him, and he’s right to be angry, but his method was cowardly really and sneaky. Spike has a right
To defend himself from being murdered . What I find despicable is Spike claiming he knows that Nikki never loved him and taunting him. He murdered the mother of this man, and is basically laughing in his face about it. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t earn Spike any points. In an episode where Spike is being chained up and attacked, and has very valid reasons for being sympathetic , he still manages to come
Off as a villain.

Also, WTH Giles? You have trusted this woman for 7 years, and you let yourself get convinced by a man you just met, who you know has a vendetta, to trick and go behind Your slayers back. Giles may have had a valid reason, but it goes out the window and becomes moot when he pulls that stunt. Way to isolate your slayer Giles!

And Buffy. Omg she pisses me off. She is such a flaming pile of hypocrisy she makes me laugh. Knowing how she feels about her own mother, and Dawn, to have the nerve to dismiss Wood and say she will let him die is gross. Of
Course, anyone else who loses loved ones and acts on their anger is wrong and bad, except for Saint Buffy. Only she is allowed to do that!

No matter how much of a Spuffy I am, I cannot get on board with season 7. Buffy’s single minded obsession with him and the character assassination of everyone else around her makes me livid.
 
Antho
Antho
I’m with you. Completely ! Same feeling. It’s bad writing
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Had Spike shown more understanding and been different enough from his demon self in that episode then he could've become one of my favorite characters, and I might even be (mildly) Spuffy.

NeddaSai

Potential
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Re-watching. I'm in love with the sound/chuckle Drusilla makes after William tells he she'll like his mother. It should be bottled and sold as "Pure Derision!"
 

Stake fodder

Soulless
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This episode is about parents, and I like how three versions are presented. First, you have William/Spike's mother, to whom he is "her world." Then you have Nikki, who puts "the mission" first. Finally, you have Giles, for whom Buffy is his world, in the sense that his job is to be her Watcher, yet he still puts the mission first. He is a hybrid of the other two.

I feel like this episode continues an arc of Spike regressing from his original S7 'soulful' remorse and gentleness. He should be grateful that Robin helped him defeat the trigger. He should understand that Nikki was right to try to kill him. He should not bite Robin, no matter how angry. And on a lesser level, it seems particularly cold to taunt Robin about his mother not caring. Previously, he not only fights a demon, but gets off on it. Later, he threatens to bite Andrew. It's as if Buffy's demand that he toughen up has driven him back towards soullessness. And all this lends credence to Giles's belief that he will continue to be dangerous.

For once, Spike really has "figured it out" correctly. He constantly uses this phrase, only to follow it with some incorrect theory. But this time, he's right that the demon is what made his mother say the "nasty bits" to him. And I did wonder if that last, kind look she gives him before she turns to dust is the demon's final twist of the knife, knowing that being forced to stake her will continue to torment him.
 

GothicBuffy

Slayer
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This episode.... Phew. Watching Spike overcome old trauma as he simultaneously defeated his current demons (that stemmed from his past).... fantastic. This episode always makes me cry because of James Marster's excellent performance.
I loved seeing Spike have a stronger sense of self, of self strength and worth in this moment, when he turned off the song. I think that its really important character development for him to see that he has strength not stemming from Buffy and worth that exist not because Buffy decided he is worthy. For whatever reason, I really care about him as a character and watching him in this episode made me happy for him.

Also, Spike isn't this perfect guy. Even if he's remorseful over is past, he isn't going to wallow. He isn't going to punish himself forever (unlike a certain brooding vampire). It makes a lot of sense that he wouldn't be super sympathetic to Wood, that's just how he is, soul or not. Earlier Season 7, where he was being more gentle, rang false.

Giles conspiring with Wood to kill Spike really isn't out of character for him. He disliked Spike from the beginning and he's killed in Buffy's interest before. Doesn't make this betrayal more heartbreaking for Buffy, though. The distance in their relationship that has been growing dramatically since season 6 is really painful to watch. I wish there was time in the season to bring them closer together, especially because season 7 was about bringing it all back to the beginning AND moving forward into the future at the same time.
 
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