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Discussion of 7.18 "Dirty Girls" - Aired 4/15/03 (UPN-US)

PreferSpike

Townie
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Feb 8, 2017
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30
I just watched this one last night. I enjoyed seeing Faith again and wish they used her a bit more. I liked the chemistry between her and Spike. I wish they had more scenes together. Buffy seems all around jealous, about Faith and Angel and Faith and Spike. Does she want both of them??

I'm confused about Caleb. I think the series is almost over and I don't think we know much about him. I'm curious to see how it unfolds.

Someone please tell me we get a "5 by 5" before it ends. I can't believe she hasn't said it yet!
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
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Sineya
I just watched this one last night. I enjoyed seeing Faith again and wish they used her a bit more. I liked the chemistry between her and Spike. I wish they had more scenes together. Buffy seems all around jealous, about Faith and Angel and Faith and Spike. Does she want both of them??

I'm confused about Caleb. I think the series is almost over and I don't think we know much about him. I'm curious to see how it unfolds.

Someone please tell me we get a "5 by 5" before it ends. I can't believe she hasn't said it yet!
Of course Buffy is jealous! She wants Faith for herself! lol. Sorry I'm a Buffy and Faith shipper. lol. But yea basically Buffy doesn't like Faith trying to steal her men. And I believe the last time Faith says 5 by 5 is in the Angel episode "Release". As far as a I know.
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
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Sineya
Faith is back in sunnydale, the previously on has lots of Faith ;)

Yet another potential...:rolleyes:

I hate that pastor, he likes to destroy people's eyes... :mad:

Caleb, stop assuming things :mad:

Satan doesn't do anything that any sane person wants to see...

Caleb :mad:

Faith is back :D

Another one of Xander's dreams...:rolleyes:

Rachel Bilson :eek:

Safe in prison ??? :confused:

Faith, meet Spike, Spike, meet Faith :)

Spike, Angel isn't that dull... :rolleyes:

Less than 15 minutes in and I already counted 15 head tilts from Faith...

Caleb has a point, black is slimming :)

Curiosity is a sin ??? o_O

Andrew... :rolleyes:

Faith never killed Spock :confused:

Why is school still in session ???

Faith really needed that cigarette, a bunch of teenagers in a house is exhausting...

Faith has a point, we all got some freaky fantasies...

It's also not the kind of thing a girl forgets ;)

Buffy...:mad:

Poor potential :(

Humans have urges, and a lot of them...

She got the splits :eek:

Giles, you aren't going...

Good tips Xander :)

The potential has a point, Buffy's crazy...

Buffy has a point, Faith is a bit slow when it comes to some things...

Caleb :mad:

Cain to her Abel, fitting since Cain killed Abel...

Potentials are dying left and right :(

Xander just lost his eye :(

Next time: Faith takes the underage potentials out to drink.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
In the Angel Buffyverse Wiki it says that Angel "appears" on this episode. And it bugs me because I am missing something major, I think he is just mentioned.

Angel

(Scroll to the bottom in appearances)

Am I missing something?
 

Mylie

Scooby
Joined
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Age
33
In the Angel Buffyverse Wiki it says that Angel "appears" on this episode. And it bugs me because I am missing something major, I think he is just mentioned.

Angel

(Scroll to the bottom in appearances)

Am I missing something?
It's probably due to the «previously on Angel...» since they had to explain how Faith ended up coming back to sunnydale with Willow.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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This is not one of my favourite episodes, though it's still good. The commentary, mentioned in this thread, says it's about the objectification of women and they make this obvious both in the title of the ep and in the number of male fantasies we see and hear about :) Xander's dream is probably realistic, but laughable when he's awoken to reality by Rona and a blocked toilet. Andrew's fantasy is funny, but ends with a warning 'she's a killer . . . stand guard around her at all times . . . '

A new character is introduced, Caleb, a symobol of organised religion and a misogynistic serial killer. Nathan Fillion is great, really creepy and threatening, but SMG is even creepier as The First. Caleb has his own fantasies about women, when he relives killing young girls.

Faith is back and she's not happy no one warned her about the Bringers being after slayers which is understandable. Her misunderstanding with Spike is fun, especially when Buffy steps in to defend Spike. Also like the call back to her introduction when she grabs the stake from Buffy, as she didn in 'Fath, Hope & Trick'

Buffy talks to Robin about the coming battle and he suggests she should test the potentials. It was good to see Robin has some sort of closure when he tells Buffy 'The mission is what matters'

I really don't like the Faith/Spike scene in the basement. They are flirting and being over friendly for my liking :) They are very similar characters and they work well together. They talk about fantasies too. They get close and I wonder how close they would have got if Buffy hadn't walked in. Spike does have the sense to look a little guilty.

I understand why Buffy feels the girls need to be tested, but Giles makes some good points as to why the attack at the vineyard is a bad idea. Buffy has lost trust in him, and is being the leader she needs to be. She has to believe that what she is doing is right, she cannot waiver. Others may not have faith in her leadership, but Xander tells them in a very sweet speech, that they shouldn't doubt her motives, she's not all about the kill, she does care about them and they should put their trust in her'. We know his opinion is going to change dramatically after they attack the vineyard, but for now it's charming.

The battle is still able to shock, even though I've seen it countless times. Caleb is terrifying, he overpowers Buffy easily and brutally murders the potentials. It's really horrible when he gouges out Xanders eye, the camera doesn't pan away, you are forced to see it happen.

The guilt and hopelessness forces Buffy to wander away alone. While Caleb's voice over talks about the foulness of women, how they didn't know the 'good news' about the coming of God er, I mean The First and they followed Buffy, so it would be easy to make them follow The First. I'm not sure if Caleb believes it would be easy to get them to follow The First because they are women or becasue they are a herd, or both.
 

Primal Slayer

Did I Fall Asleep?
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Rewatching this episode and the first half is good. Re-establishing Buffy/Faiths relationship was good and awkward as hell especially the Faith/Spike scene (those two should've been a couple). But Buffy leading the Potentials into the battle field was just very poor on her part.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Buffy gets a lot of flack for taking the potentials to the vineyard, however it wasn't a reckless as it's made out to be and she did listen to the scoobies.

1. Buffy's main reason for going to the vineyard was that Caleb had "something of hers". She thought it could be another girl, Giles pointed out that it could be a stapler. Whilst Giles has a point, Buffy wouldn't be able to live with herself if it had been a girl that she left at the mercy of Caleb.

2. When Xander (or Giles, can't remember which) points out that it sounds like a trap, Buffy acknowledges this and says she's only taking the girls that have been there the longest because they would be more competent fighters than the newer ones.

3. When Spike points out that it could be a bait and switch ie Caleb draws them away from the house and murders the weaker potentials whilst they're gone, Buffy again acknowledges this and says she's leaving Willow (her "strongest weapon") and Giles behind to protect them.

4. Buffy left Faith and Xander outside the vineyard as backup in case things went south, rather than leading them all in blindly.

Buffy's plan was flawed and she clearly underestimated Caleb, however there was logic to it. It's just unfortunate that things did not go well.
 

spikenbuffy

"Why can't I stay"
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Buffy gets a lot of flack for taking the potentials to the vineyard, however it wasn't a reckless as it's made out to be and she did listen to the scoobies.
Plus I watched it earlier and in the beginning of Dirty Girls, Buffy said that she didn't wanted to go with the potentials in war to Woods and it's Woods that said to her to test the potentials. So it's what she did later in this episode, to test the potentials. She listened to Woods.
 

NeonSlayer

Potential
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It would make no sense to try to kill Faith in prison since killing a Slayer turns a Potential into a Slayer. The FE is trying to exterminate the Slayer line. It chose not to kill Buffy in Bring on the Night. Faith was a lot safer watching bad movies in LA Correctional than fighting the forces of darkness on the Hellmouth.

The vineyard wasn't a trap. They went there expecting Caleb & the Bringers and when they got there it was Caleb & the Bringers.

What research would've been needed? The third time Buffy encountered him he couldn't lay a hand on her. The fourth time Buffy encountered him she killed him. All they needed to know about him was that he hits hard enough to knock you unconscious and they learned that within seconds of entering the vineyard.

I thought it was really clunky writing to have everyone against going to the vineyard. Especially when in Touched no one objected to going into another FE lair. Suddenly they believe the enemy and are eager to fight.
 

IdiotJed110

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It would make no sense to try to kill Faith in prison since killing a Slayer turns a Potential into a Slayer.
My head canon is that the attack in the prison wasn't meant to succeed (if it was the First could have come up with something better than that inmate). I think it was just to add to the tension between Buffy and Faith when Faith inevitably returned. The First wanted Faith in Sunnydale anyway, once the Slayers and Potentials were all together it would make killing them simpler.
 

katmobile

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Spike is wrong. Faith redeemed herself before he did. He was still evil in Buffy Season 4/Angel Season 1. Faith went to jail in Angel Season 1.
As I said before in the After Show Review comment thread a dude is allowed to be wrong if he isn't possession of the full facts and is being repeatedly hit in the face neither have be known to improve your powers to reach a reasonable conclusion.
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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I like this episode a lot, I believe this is one of the last episodes that has light-hearted scenes like the cemetery confusion (and it’s nice to have snarky Spike in that scene, I miss him) and I like seeing reformed Faith going back to Sunnydale. I’ve always loved how tough and self-confident she is, I envy her.

And I LOVE the chemistry between Faith and Spike. I wouldn’t mind exploring a fling between them, I’d say that they’d definitely have a good time together. I can watch the basement scene over and over and over again and I don’t get tired of it, it makes me smile every time. And I actually dislike how that chemistry is wasted in the next episodes by making Spike punch Faith.

I also like Caleb a lot. He’s definitely creepy and I like that they combine elements of real life and elements of magic. He’s definitely a misogynistic serial killer (and unfortunately, they do exist) with super-strength thanks to the First. But I cannot watch the scene where Xander loses his eye, I always skip it, it’s too much for me.

And I have conflicted feelings about the decision of going into the vineyard with the Potentials. It seems a bit reckless, but they are at war, there’s acknowledgement that it might be a trap and they had to confront Caleb at some point. I agree more with the idea that they lost because they underestimated Caleb, not because they lacked planning.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
As I said before in the After Show Review comment thread a dude is allowed to be wrong
That's not really the point. The point-fundamentally- goes to how Spike sees himself. When exactly did he start his 'reforming'? When he got the chip? He must be talking about that since nothing else makes sense. So Spike-with-a-soul considers himself 'reformed' way back in Season 4?
lol, what a guy.

The fact is you could easily argue that Spike didn't start reforming until the previous episode when he finally got de-triggered from the thrall of The First Evil and was therefor no, longer a significant danger.
Of course that was also when he was busily mocking the pain of one of his victims and telling his Mommy never loved him, so maybe not.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
If he was really redeemed, then why did he go to lengths to get the Scoobies into trouble?
Because he had yet to realize that he was deeply in love with Buffy. Or something. ;)
But really Adam was just teething problems on the road to greatness. And also that thing with Harmony. And also Dru. And being the Doctor. And the AR. And killing many whilst under the influence of The First.
All part of his beautiful flowering into a champion, which according to him started in Season 4....
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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Because he had yet to realize that he was deeply in love with Buffy. Or something. ;)
But really Adam was just teething problems on the road to greatness. And also that thing with Harmony. And also Dru. And being the Doctor. And the AR. And killing many whilst under the influence of The First.
All part of his beautiful flowering into a champion, which according to him started in Season 4....
I was agreeing with you, you know?
 
thetopher
thetopher
I know. I was kidding. :)

katmobile

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That's not really the point. The point-fundamentally- goes to how Spike sees himself. When exactly did he start his 'reforming'? When he got the chip? He must be talking about that since nothing else makes sense. So Spike-with-a-soul considers himself 'reformed' way back in Season 4?
lol, what a guy.

The fact is you could easily argue that Spike didn't start reforming until the previous episode when he finally got de-triggered from the thrall of The First Evil and was therefor no, longer a significant danger.
Of course that was also when he was busily mocking the pain of one of his victims and telling his Mommy never loved him, so maybe not.
Or it's just a remark as he's been hit in the face....or I forgot he's the antichrist who never does one right thing while Faith is a woobie who only ever does 'cos pain - ok the second part does have a ring of truth but I you see I love redemption stories and unlike some I actually try to be fair.
 
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