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Discussion of 7.18 "Dirty Girls" - Aired 4/15/03 (UPN-US)

thetopher

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Sineya
Or it's just a remark as he's been hit in the face
That's a valid way to interpret his character in this scene, but its also revealing of his thought processes that are shown in other instances; the standards Spike holds himself to are not the same as the standards he gives others. That's pretty obvious.

or I forgot he's the antichrist who never does one right thing while Faith is a woobie who only ever does 'cos pain - ok the second part does have a ring of truth but I you see I love redemption stories and unlike some I actually try to be fair.
lol. You might of well have just said 'your opinion is stoopid 'cuz reasons'. You more you do this the worse you look imo.
I don't think Spike is Satan and I've never though of Faith as a woobie.

Try countering with actual arguments instead of insulting posters.
 

katmobile

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That's a valid way to interpret his character in this scene, but its also revealing of his thought processes that are shown in other instances; the standards Spike holds himself to are not the same as the standards he gives others. That's pretty obvious.



lol. You might of well have just said 'your opinion is stoopid 'cuz reasons'. You more you do this the worse you look imo.
I don't think Spike is Satan and I've never though of Faith as a woobie.

Try countering with actual arguments instead of insulting posters.
The problem is that you're working with an assumption that's what Spike fans and I have noticed that you NEVER give him the benefit of the doubt and always attribute the worse possible motive to everything he does while you treat Faith with kid gloves and downplay what she does. I've tried explaining why I think you're wrong in the past and you just attack. The thing about strong opinions is they're like strong drink you have to be able to handle the kick back.

I didn't call you stupid I called you dogmatic. I don't think I was being unfair and believe me I tried to soft peddle it as much as I could. Seriously you should see some of the things people have called me.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
The problem is that you're working with an assumption that's what Spike fans and I have noticed that you NEVER give him the benefit of the doubt and always attribute the worse possible motive
I actually like Spike most of the time on the show. I think he's great in S2 and 4 and 5. And even like some of his turn over on Angel.
I like the bad-ass vampire not Buffy's creepy love interest/woobie.

while you treat Faith with kid gloves and downplay what she does.
This is also untrue. I've never denied that Faith has done evil, bad things. I just give her credit that others never give her (on the show mainly) and think her redemption turn is one of the best.

I've tried explaining why I think you're wrong in the past and you just attack.
I have never attacked you. I've actually been very patient with you.
In your very first 'comment' to me you attacked me (mocking a 'shipper' post may I add) and you've continually done so in the comments section or just passive-aggressive posts alluding to me.
I've literally NEVER had any sort of serious debate with you. You've never bothered trying.

I didn't call you stupid I called you dogmatic.
No you didn't you just ranted and belittled my arguments/rationale in simplistic terms.

Seriously you should see some of the things people have called me.
Then honestly go and bother them instead of me.


Ahem. Having seen this episode very recently:
I like this episode a lot; Faith adds a breath of fresh air when she shows up; her two scenes with Spike are great.
Caleb is creepy as hell and is well established. I like his banter with SMG/The First (who seems to enjoy playing 'sultry, superior Buffy')
I especially love Xander's Buffy-speech and Buffy and Faith's conversation as they scout out the vineyard. The battle at the end is brutal and shocking. Poor Xand. :(
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
There there. *pats shoulder*

katmobile

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I actually like Spike most of the time on the show. I think he's great in S2 and 4 and 5. And even like some of his turn over on Angel.
I like the bad-ass vampire not Buffy's creepy love interest/woobie.



This is also untrue. I've never denied that Faith has done evil, bad things. I just give her credit that others never give her (on the show mainly) and think her redemption turn is one of the best.



I have never attacked you. I've actually been very patient with you.
In your very first 'comment' to me you attacked me (mocking a 'shipper' post may I add) and you've continually done so in the comments section or just passive-aggressive posts alluding to me.
I've literally NEVER had any sort of serious debate with you. You've never bothered trying.



No you didn't you just ranted and belittled my arguments/rationale in simplistic terms.



Then honestly go and bother them instead of me.


Ahem. Having seen this episode very recently:
I like this episode a lot; Faith adds a breath of fresh air when she shows up; her two scenes with Spike are great.
Caleb is creepy as hell and is well established. I like his banter with SMG/The First (who seems to enjoy playing 'sultry, superior Buffy')
I especially love Xander's Buffy-speech and Buffy and Faith's conversation as they scout out the vineyard. The battle at the end is brutal and shocking. Poor Xand. :(
Ok do you have the quote of me attacking you because i don't remember doing that. It's funny because I thought I was being restrained I guess some folks just run each other up the wrong way which is funny because we have Faith in common I do really like Faith but you won't see her actions in Consequences or Who Are You for the downright abuse they are - rapey AF. I agree with you about her redemption arc but you won't forgive others - I don't think that's fair frankly.

There isn't a way to rationally debunk an assumption of that's what's in someone's alluding too and this why they're arrogant for doing when it's a massive two step extrapolation from a throw away comment from someone who is being punched in the face at the time and verbally attacked too. I don't think you understand that Spike tends to verbally attack out of insecurity nor that ok let's stress this again being punched in the face and shouted at is not a great facilitator for making a nuanced or factual correct point.

Seriously you say your points are obvious or self evident and you don't think that's implicitly patronising to anyone who looks at that point and goes nope!

I gave you the rationale for every single time that Spike allegedly 'unprovoked' punched someone in the face you just did not accept it nor did you accept anyone else's argument either or seem to consider it at all. You say the way someone's arguement is framed matters but your counter is always framed - nope I'm right rather than maybe or I can see that but. You see the difference - it's nuance again.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I find Faith to be an overrated character. ED's acting, whilst not bad, looks weak when she shares scenes with SMG and JM. Her delivery of the "am I the good slayer now?" line comes across rather stilted. Faith is a bit of a stereotype on Buffy, she's better when she has Angel to play off of.

I think all the characters get dumbed down a little in the later seasons compared to the early seasons.
 

thetopher

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Ok do you have the quote of me attacking you because i don't remember doing that.
Our first interaction you compared one of my shipper posts to 50 Shades of Grey fan-fic. That should be enough to jog your memory.

I then had to PM you to stop leaving long, negative comments in all my posts and just actually debate me or whatever.

you won't see her actions in Consequences or Who Are You for the downright abuse they are
I can't remember ever defending Faith's crappy actions in these episodes. It was abuse-y or whatever and badwrong or some other combination. All I have stated is that I don't think she 'raped' Buffy, I think it diminishes what is in reality a horrible crime and takes something metaphorical and makes it literal. That's never what the show has been about.

Also there are many who just flat-out call her a rapist without holding women like Darla or Willow to the same standard.
's a bit weird to be honest.

I agree with you about her redemption arc but you won't forgive others - I don't think that's fair frankly.
Of course its fair lol.
I mean, we can all compare and contrast the different way a story is told. On Buffy and Angel many characters 'go dark' or are straight-up reformed villains. We can all say who we prefer and what is better and which stories we respond to. We all make judgements on what character stories are satisfactory. I think Faith's is far better than Willow's, for example, but that doesn't mean that I hate Willow.
I'm sure there are plenty here who prefer Spike's reforming journey to Anya's ove rthe course of the show, and that's fine. I'd actually agree with that.

There isn't a way to rationally debunk an assumption of that's what's in someone's alluding too and this why they're arrogant for doing when it's a massive two step extrapolation from a throw away comment from someone who is being punched in the face at the time and verbally attacked too.
Of course there's a way to debunk it; just ARGUE the damn point. Just say 'actually Spike holds himself to these same standards' and then maybe give examples. It's not hard to debate reasons with other reasons.
If you don't want to do that? Maybe just ignore the post or something.

Btw I accepted your answer/take on the scene but you didn't accept mine, that's the difference. So you're doing exactly what you are accusing me of.

If your gonna be on these boards then you have to expect that people aren't going to like what you like, aren't gonna see things the same way and are gonna dislike aspects/characters/relationships that you very much enjoy.

I can't help thinking that most of this is coming from sheer defensiveness because you're taking critiques on a character or ship personally.

I don't think you understand that Spike tends to verbally attack out of insecurity
Quite frankly this is a little simplistic. Spike verbally snarks because it buys into his tough-guy image that he has of himself. He's had it for over a century and he isn't ready to give it up yet (or ever apparently)
I greatly enjoy it when he's a soulless vampire because this makes sense, all vampires react to the host person that they were, it defines them to an extent. William was a wallflower and so Spike is a brute. They were both romantic but Spike had the gumption and confidence- mostly- to act upon his romantic feelings. This was nurtured and encouraged by Drusilla.
On the other hand (I have different fingers) I expect a little better from a guy with a soul really, a bit more depth and nuance.

And while Spike's insecurity and posturing is evident when it comes to love its simply not when he's interacting with many other people; he name-calls and mocks and snarks even when he doesn't really know them.

I gave you the rationale for every single time that Spike allegedly 'unprovoked' punched someone in the face you just did not accept it nor did you accept anyone else's argument either or seem to consider it at all.
Ha, I actually forgot about this ONE debate we ever had. Wow.
*shrug* Okay I do remember reading some rather weak excuses about why its 'okay' that Spike assaults others without provocation. I mean, it isn't, ever, and its perfectly reasonable to say that. People can just say 'Spike in S7 was still a work in progress and he makes some bad choices, but hey, at least he wasn't hanging around the Boxer's Rebellion eating murderers'.
See? That's a valid comparison and a debate can be had from that.

We can all say that he was unstable and that's why he hit Anya multiple times but its doesn't make it 'okay', it just puts it in some context, same with Faith in 'Touched'; you can say his actions are understandable in character but in the thread that you're referring to many people were trying to justify it by saying that Faith was a *ahem* 'a vampire-bigot who was trying to silence Spike' or something. There's a big difference.

But y'see, about the no-provocation punching thing I hate it when every other character does it; its a cruddy thing when Buffy does it or Faith or whomever. It's never just some kinds 'Spike thing'... except that Spike is the only one who gets righteously defended because it seems like he can do no wrong lol.

I make no bones about thinking he one of the worst characters in S7, judging by his actions.

You say the way someone's arguement is framed matters but your counter is always framed - nope I'm right rather than maybe or I can see that but. You see the difference - it's nuance again.
Okay, I can see how maybe I can come across as...strident in my arguments but I have a looong history of debating with many, many, ardent Spike fans who were simply obnoxious. I apologize.
But that isn't an excuse to react in the way that you've done, which is not to bother debating AT ALL and just simplify/straw man someones elses argument in your own posts. Please stop.

Anyway, I'm done becasue this is an episode discussion and we're not even discussing the episode.
 

katmobile

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Ok I was out of line on the first post I'll admit but you came out with a rambling great thing and said something about it being an essay and I thought something negative. But you're right I was new and out of line.
Rationale is only as weak and strong as you think it is again you stating your opinion as if it's irrefutable truth - it ain't! Also I never said hiting Anya was ok but it wasn't unprovoked he didn't hit her because he felt like it but he was raw and she was sharing something he didn't want shared and he wasn't stable enough to find a way of distracting her.

Again with your arguement long history of 'obnoxious' Spike fans arguing with you. Ever think it's because you're pushing THEIR buttons. As with the Faith fighting you're not understanding the impact of loaded language. You hire a shotgun the propulsion of expelling the bullet will kick it back into your shoulder you can be prepared for that or just get knocked on your arse and curse the 'obnoxious' gun.
I did argue against your point. You won't accept Faith raped Buffy and Riley and downplay it's importance.
Ok I guess I'm done.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I'm curious of why? I mean I do agree kind of.
There's a noticeable difference between earlier appearances of characters and later appearances.

Spike- In Season 2, Spike is an actual threat to Buffy and his failures are through no fault of his own. He nearly killed Buffy in School Hard, but Joyce hit him with an axe. He nearly killed Buffy in Halloween, but the spell on her wore off in time and, given that it was an opportunistic attack and he ended up surrounded on his own, he cut his losses and escaped. In Lie to Me, it was only Drusilla being there that enabled Buffy to use her as leverage against Spike otherwise she was outnumbered. He actually was successful in getting Dru better in What's My Line, but it was Willy and co turning up with Buffy at the church which meant Spike ended up injured and confined to a Wheelchair, however he and Dru still managed to assemble the Judge. He was stuck in a wheelchair so Angelus could be the main threat to Buffy, but even so he got his own back and secured safe passage out of town for him and Dru by striking up a temporary truce with Buffy. Also in What's my line, Spike hires the order of Taraka (supposedly world class assassins) to take Buffy out so that he can concentrate on his goal without her interfering, in terms of villainy that's a smart move.

In Season 3, he's a drunken mess after Dru breaks up with him, but he still poses a threat. He kidnaps Willow and Xander and holds them hostage in order to get Willow to perform a love spell. The only reason Buffy even knows he's in town is because she heard his voice over the phone. If that hadn't happened (bearing in mind it was WILLOW who sent him to the house in the first place) Buffy may not have known he was there. After the altercation with the mayor's minions, Spike decides to just leave and does temporarily win Drusilla back.

In Season 4, he successfully finds the Gem of Amara (which would've taken a while) without Buffy being any wiser and it's only because Harmony opened her mouth and spilled the beans that Buffy even heard of the gem.
and there was a definite flaw in his logic in In The Dark though he still managed to lure Angel into a trap and almost got the ring back if not for Oz's intervention.

Post chip- Spike is in an awkward situation where he can't harm the scoobies physically but is still somewhat of a threat, especially with turning the scoobies against each other and Buffy only figured it out because Spike inadvertently let slip the scoobies had fallen out when there was no way he should've known that. He very nearly got the chip removed in very early Season 5 but Harmony didn't check what was in the tin and he didn't realise until it was too late.

However, from that point on, which coincidentally is when Spuffy begins taking hold, Spike's intelligence takes a nose dive and he becomes a joke. Not to mention the ridiculous "Doctor" plotline, then there is the whole season 7 stuff. Even Angel Season 5, he's not as sharp as he was in the earlier seasons. Where's the smart deadly vampire from Season 2 gone?

Anya- In Season 3, Anya was a lot less ditsy than she was in later seasons. She was a real threat in the wish and she formed an alliance with Vampire Willow in Doppelgangland despite being mortal and thus easy prey. She didn't really interact with the scoobies but when she did, she was usually able to offer some form of useful information such as what the mayor's ascension really meant. She asked Xander to prom, only because she didn't want to go on her own and he was the only male she really knew. She was also ready to skip town to avoid the mayor's ascension because there was no reason for her to stay and suffer the consequences. She offered Xander to come along with her, but when he refused she went on her own because she wasn't going to risk her life for him (which is a refreshing move in this kind of storytelling).

She didn't come back until Season 4 when the danger had passed and she hung around Xander constantly but she still had some wits about her. She didn't really have a role in Season 4 but she still had elements of her season 3 moxy, she still had brains and she still existed outside of Xander.

Come season 5, it's amazing Anya can even tie her own shoelaces, He whole world becomes Xander shaped which it never was in Season 3 or 4. He speech in the body about not understanding death is ridiculously over the top and is again put through the lens of how it makes Xander feel and Anya feels bad because it makes Xander feel sad. Anya's emotional understanding reduces to that of a child.

There is a slight improvement in Season 6 post hells bells, but it reverts back in Season 7. Pre-hells bells it's still Xander, Xander, Xander.

Thing is that, as a vengeance demon, Anya would need to understand human emotion and customs so that she could manipulate them. She posed as a friend to Cordelia and Halfrek posed as a guidance counsellor to Dawn so that they could manipulate them into making wishes. They acted as a sympathetic ear and just let Cordy and Dawn talk whilst asking questions that would push the two girls towards saying "I wish..."

In Season 7, Anya is terrible at her vengeance demon job. D'Hoffryn punished her for losing her amulet despite her still being at the top of her game, yet he's willing to let her continue being a vengeance demon despite a subpar performance then tries to try and have her killed when she chooses not to be a vengeance demon anymore. His whole "never go for the kill when you can go for the pain" line loses weight because Anya wouldn't have to live with the guilt of Halfrek's death if she was dead. Also vengeance demons seem to work in an office environment (given that someone had a picture of Willow skinning Warren on their wall), why wasn't Anya fired?

Drusilla- There's a difference between how Drusilla is portrayed on Buffy and how she is portrayed on Angel. In Buffy Season 2, she's smarter than she makes out she is and she is a lot more dangerous than people give her credit for. She's a competent fighter, having taken out Kendra easily and putting up a good fight against Spike. In Angel Season 2, she's treated like a child and acts more like one too. The Whirlwind might be protective of her but they never babied her which is kind of what Darla does in Angel Season 2.

Buffy- She was a lot more smarter and likeable in Seasons 1-4 than she was in Seasons 5-7, again coincidentally pre-Spuffy but also pre-Dawn. Sure, she made some mistakes but they were more growing pains. High school Buffy killed the love of her life because she had to in order to save the world, despite it being an extremely painful thing to do. She co-ordinated her entire school year in a battle against the mayor. Buffy used to be about overcoming difficult odds with the help of her friends but Season 5 onwards was about piling misery upon misery on Buffy. There was no joy to her growing up. Whilst adulthood isn't as carefree as being a teenager (though Buffy still had a massive burden on her shoulders as the slayer), it's not as bad as the show made it for Buffy. Parental death, financial difficulties, becoming an unplanned parent, bad relationships, social services threating to remove the child from the household, crappy job etc., everything that could be horrible about adulthood was thrown at Buffy and there was no respite. There was no upside for Buffy about being an adult. I could go into more detail but this post is getting long enough as it is so I'll keep it as concise as possible (aside from Spike and Anya who were the most obvious dumbed down characters).

Giles- Up until Season 6, Giles is okay. He transitions from purely being Buffy's watcher to being more of a father figure. Several times he tries to take a step back before realising that he wants to be there to help Buffy. Then comes the ridiculous decision of Season 6. In Season 5, he was planning to leave but changed his mind at the last moment. In Season 6, when Buffy actually needs him, he just abandons her despite learning that she'd been ripped out of heaven. Okay, so she left him to parent Dawn which probably irked him, despite Buffy not being Dawn's mother either, however it's revealed that Buffy was dealing with being pulled out of heaven which is a big deal. Dawn's bad behaviour was another problem that Buffy didn't need on top of everything else, yet Giles just decides to leave her to it? I know Giles had to be written out somehow because ASH wanted to spend some time with his family in England, but the writers could've come up with a better excuse for him to go, rather than the same one they'd used in Season 5 then discarded.

In Season 7, Giles informs Buffy that a horde of teenage girls are going to descend upon her house so that she can protect them and he ends up doing bugger all to help. He could've been a lot more hands on than he was, all the scoobies could've been. Instead, it's left up to Buffy to deal with EVERYTHING then the scoobies pile in on her when everything starts going wrong because Buffy is stressed.

Willow- Like Giles, she's fine up to Season 6 (though the babyish moment in Season 5 between her and Tara is really annoying). Aside from the whole magic=Drugs despite meaning lesbian love in Season 4, Willow just makes stupid decisions that literally make no logical sense. She and Tara are living at he house yet don't seem to be trying to help Buffy in any way upon her return, then Willow erases Tara's mind despite the risks far outweighing the benefits eg Tara finds out, or someone mentions the argument that Tara doesn't remember having etc. Then comes Season 7 and Kennedy. What the hell was Willow thinking? What the hell were the writers thinking? "Let's kill off one half of our lesbian couple so Willow can go dark, then we'll give Willow a new lesbian lover she can end the series with!" If Tara's death was enough to send Willow over the edge to that extent and she was crying for forgiveness from Tara for kissing another woman, then a second kiss from the same woman that caused the problem in the first place shouldn't make everything magically better yet for Willow it apparently does.

Cordelia- It all goes wrong around Season 3 of Angel.

Some characters do fair better than others eg Xander, Dawn, Angel, Darla, Wesley. They were smarter in their later seasons than they were in their first appearance. Not counting the stupid OMWF "twist". Dawn matured considerably in Season 7 though that could be because she was written more age appropriate than she was in Season 5 where she was written younger than she was supposed to be.

Faith- Faith's intelligence is quite steady until Buffy Season 7 where she repeats almost exactly the same mistake Buffy did and she has sex with Wood. Faith gets points though for being the one who is smart enough to put Kennedy in her place, though loses points for taking the potentials into a bringer infested town unarmed "to blow off steam". Faith wouldn't have been able to protect them all on her own.


I can't remember ever defending Faith's crappy actions in these episodes. It was abuse-y or whatever and badwrong or some other combination. All I have stated is that I don't think she 'raped' Buffy, I think it diminishes what is in reality a horrible crime and takes something metaphorical and makes it literal. That's never what the show has been about.
I disagree. It's clear Faith raped Riley by deception, that's undisputable, he never would've slept with Faith if he'd known it was her. In real life, this would be like an identical twin pretending to be their other twin in order to sleep with their twin's boyfriend.

In regards to Buffy, whilst there is no exact real life example to compare the situation to unlike with Riley, it is still rape of Buffy's body within the parameters of the show. Every guy Faith sleeps with whilst in Buffy's body is a rape of Buffy's body (this also technically means that Riley raped Buffy's body through no fault of his own) because Buffy is not there to give consent and thus the lack of consent means it is rape.

If you consider a person's body to be the house for their mind and soul, then that is their house regardless of whether they are there or not. Much like a house of bricks is still your house even if your not constantly in it. That house belongs to you and is yours, much like Buffy's body belongs to her and is hers. Buffy doesn't consent to Faith using her house as a brothel.


Also there are many who just flat-out call her a rapist without holding women like Darla or Willow to the same standard.
's a bit weird to be honest.
Just remind me of the situation with Angel and Darla again. Wasn't she having sex with him whilst he slept or something but then he also did something to her or got quite sexually aggressive with her?

What Willow did to Tara was definitely an abuse of trust. However, in regards to whether it was rape or not (not talking about "mind rape" but physical), I can see arguments for both sides.

On one hand, it could be argued that Tara wouldn't have agreed to sleep with Willow after their fight because she was mad at her. However, on the other hand, all Willow did was remove the singular memory of the fight and didn't play with Tara's mind in any other way at all. Therefore Tara does consent to sleep with Willow. It might not be "informed" consent but it is still consent nonetheless.

Willow is still Willow and isn't someone else pretending to be Willow in order to sleep with Tara.


I greatly enjoy it when he's a soulless vampire
Same here. Spike was a much better character when he was still evil and pre-chip.

They were both romantic but Spike had the gumption and confidence- mostly- to act upon his romantic feelings. This was nurtured and encouraged by Drusilla.
William kind of acted on his romantic feelings. He was writing poems about Cecily, maybe with the intention of eventually wooing her with them, and when she did ask him directly if they were about her, you see him take a deep breath before admitting that they were. He'd summoned up the courage to tell her about his feelings, though probably a lot sooner than he wanted, and she threw it back in his face. He'd probably imagined that she would be delighted by his "romantic gesture" and when she rejected him, he didn't know how to handle it, which is why he left rather abruptly and took himself somewhere to be on his own and calm down.


Ha, I actually forgot about this ONE debate we ever had. Wow.
*shrug* Okay I do remember reading some rather weak excuses about why its 'okay' that Spike assaults others without provocation. I mean, it isn't, ever, and its perfectly reasonable to say that. People can just say 'Spike in S7 was still a work in progress and he makes some bad choices, but hey, at least he wasn't hanging around the Boxer's Rebellion eating murderers'.
See? That's a valid comparison and a debate can be had from that.

We can all say that he was unstable and that's why he hit Anya multiple times but its doesn't make it 'okay', it just puts it in some context, same with Faith in 'Touched'; you can say his actions are understandable in character but in the thread that you're referring to many people were trying to justify it by saying that Faith was a *ahem* 'a vampire-bigot who was trying to silence Spike' or something. There's a big difference.
I remember that debate and I still think Faith knew what she was doing. There was a reason she chose to use those words, that's not saying she's a "vampire bigot" (your own words) but that she was drawing Spike's anger away from the rest of the group and on to herself because she didn't want him affecting morale even more.

But y'see, about the no-provocation punching thing I hate it when every other character does it; its a cruddy thing when Buffy does it or Faith or whomever. It's never just some kinds 'Spike thing'... except that Spike is the only one who gets righteously defended because it seems like he can do no wrong lol.
The thing with this, and I think with the hate that Xander gets too, is that it's the fans picking up the slack from the characters eg with Xander, there are a lot of times he should've been called out on his actions by other characters but isn't which means the fans tend to focus on those bad actions.

In regards to Spike, he is hit quite a lot by Buffy for no reason at all, and the scoobies treat him badly at times for no reason at all (again, they don't have to like him but there's no reason not to be civil especially as he's team scooby), the fans pick up the slack on this perceived mistreatment of the character by perhaps going too far in the other direction. Spike is no angel (pun not intended), but he seems to be either demonised or can do no wrong which winds both sides of the argument up.

I make no bones about thinking he one of the worst characters in S7, judging by his actions.
I wouldn't call him one of the worst in Season 7, there are at least 4 other characters that take that honour, but like with the previous two seasons, Spike's character became all about Spuffy and Seasons 6&7 were quite heavily Spuffy focussed. If you don't like Spuffy then those seasons can be quite wearying. He never should've gotten a soul. It was a cheap ploy to absolve him of the AR but then the AR shouldn't have happened in the first place.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Okay. Thanks. I disagree with the Giles and Cordy parts.

thetopher

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Sineya
Just remind me of the situation with Angel and Darla again. Wasn't she having sex with him whilst he slept or something but then he also did something to her
Human/souled Darla repeated has sex with Angel as he sleeps, there is and would be no consent if Angel were aware that she is actually real and not fantasy. She is 'mystically roofie-ing him'. Rape.

What Willow did to Tara was definitely an abuse of trust. However, in regards to whether it was rape or not (not talking about "mind rape" but physical), I can see arguments for both sides.
Rape can and does happen within a 'loving relationship'; Willow permanently removed Tara's ability to fully consent by deleting a memory for ever. We can't say if she would fully consent to having sex with Willow again.

The fact is that Tara chose to forgive Willow for the violation is very big of her but the fact is its its rape if the whole Buffy/Faith is rape, no doubt.

I disagree. It's clear Faith raped Riley by deception, that's undisputable, he never would've slept with Faith if he'd known it was her.
When people label Faith 'a rapist' that is an emotive and inaccurate term even if its legally applicable. I mean, lots of characters are legally culpable for crimes and they aren't labeled as thieves, murderers and the like.
Nobody ever casually labels Darla or Willow a rapist. I've never seen that happen.

William kind of acted on his romantic feelings. He was writing poems about Cecily, maybe with the intention of eventually wooing her with them, and when she did ask him directly if they were about her, you see him take a deep breath before admitting that they were. He'd summoned up the courage to tell her about his feelings, though probably a lot sooner than he wanted, and she threw it back in his face.
My point remains that William was sensitive with very little self-confidence and Spike is brimming with it; the romantic feeling comes from the same 'place' but he acts on those feelings in a radically different way.

I remember that debate and I still think Faith knew what she was doing.
Sure she was, she was feeling guilty and so was everyone else so she told Spike to lay off becasue it was over and done with. Whatever choice of words she used I don't think she was asking to be punched.
But I'm not getting into that again. Anybody who does that- not matter what character- is in the wrong.

In regards to Spike, he is hit quite a lot by Buffy for no reason at all, and the scoobies treat him badly at times for no reason at all (again, they don't have to like him but there's no reason not to be civil especially as he's team scooby), the fans pick up the slack on this perceived mistreatment of the character by perhaps going too far in the other direction.
I think it balances out. The Scoobies were actually incredibly tolerant of Spike in S4. He stayed at Giles house, they gave him shelter, blood and money in exchange for info and help, the helped him evade the Initiative on more than one occasion. Giles even mentioned that Spike could be a force for good in 'The I In Team'.
In turn Spike betrayed them by teaming up with Adam.
None of the Scoobies were exactly surprised by this but after that their tolerance of him naturally dips. They don't really want him around anymore, Buffy thinks nothing of punching him as a hello (sometimes, if she's annoyed) because she's played 'nice' before and got nowhere, the scoobies are just content to ignore or mock him; again they've already tried being nice.
The only times I think Buffy is 'out of line' in her treatment of Spike is between Checkpoint and Crush where she is relying on him for help/trusting him to an extent whilst also not respecting him. In Crush she has every reason to react the way she does. And by Intervention he's proven that he can be trusted, so again Buffy treats him decently.

In S6 you could argue that Buffy treats Spike poorly post 'OMWF' with the kissing and mixed signals and then punching him in 'Smashed', but this is all highlighted the season after.

I wouldn't call him one of the worst in Season 7,
I should clarify that I meant the worst character in the credits
 

sosa lola

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Some characters do fair better than others eg Xander, Dawn, Angel, Darla, Wesley. They were smarter in their later seasons than they were in their first appearance.
I would disagree because Xander was far smarter and more competent in the early seasons than the later seasons. Compare how he took the news of the existence of vampires in The Harvest with the joke they had written him in Tabula Rasa. High School Xander was insightful and relevant to the action. Later Seasons Xander was pushed to the background and rarely had moments of insight.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Rape can and does happen within a 'loving relationship'; Willow permanently removed Tara's ability to fully consent by deleting a memory for ever. We can't say if she would fully consent to having sex with Willow again.
I always thought the memory came back when Tara discovered what Willow had done, kind of like the spell was broken because it was discovered which nullified it, hence why Willow had to be secretive about it.

When people label Faith 'a rapist' that is an emotive and inaccurate term even if its legally applicable. I mean, lots of characters are legally culpable for crimes and they aren't labeled as thieves, murderers and the like.
Faith isn't labelled as a thief despite stealing stuff, likewise with all the scoobies. Dawn was the only one. Faith has murdered though that label doesn't get attached to her.

The problem is Faith IS a rapist of Riley at the very least. It's "rape by deception". She pretended to be Buffy in order to sleep with Riley despite knowing that Riley wouldn't sleep with her if he knew. She deceived him.

In TV land, whether you agree or not, rape is always treated as worse than murder. It's why the good guys might kill, but they never rape because "rape is a special kind of evil" probably because of the violation aspect to it.

Nobody ever casually labels Darla or Willow a rapist. I've never seen that happen.
The case with Darla doesn't surprise me since most sexual assaults on the male characters get ignored on both shows. With Willow, it's more murky, possibly because the deception factor isn't highlighted whereas it was with Faith's case.
 

Btvs fan

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I always thought the memory came back when Tara discovered what Willow had done, kind of like the spell was broken because it was discovered which nullified it, hence why Willow had to be secretive about it.



Faith isn't labelled as a thief despite stealing stuff, likewise with all the scoobies. Dawn was the only one. Faith has murdered though that label doesn't get attached to her.

The problem is Faith IS a rapist of Riley at the very least. It's "rape by deception". She pretended to be Buffy in order to sleep with Riley despite knowing that Riley wouldn't sleep with her if he knew. She deceived him.

In TV land, whether you agree or not, rape is always treated as worse than murder. It's why the good guys might kill, but they never rape because "rape is a special kind of evil" probably because of the violation aspect to it.



The case with Darla doesn't surprise me since most sexual assaults on the male characters get ignored on both shows. With Willow, it's more murky, possibly because the deception factor isn't highlighted whereas it was with Faith's case.
Not quite. With the first Mind rape she finds out that Willow did it to her but not what was lost. She then confronted Willow again and Willow then went and did it again .. ala Tabla Rusa.. which was ended when Xander destroyed it by accident.
It was then completely dropped and swapped for a drug metaphor, so the metaphorical rape/control subject was never mentioned again in the show.
 

Buffy Summers

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Let's make sure we're sticking to the topic at hand and starting new thread for discussions that branch off of it.

Also, there is no reason to be attacking other members because they disagree. This a discussion board, people are going to disagree, and let's do that civilly please.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Caleb was definitely the shot in the arm that Season 7 needed and I think it would've been better if he'd appeared earlier and had maybe been hiding in plain sight. He could've been introduced as a supposed ally of the scoobies before being revealed to be an agent of the first. Just imagine if the audience knew he was evil but Buffy didn't and she invited him into the house.
 

Btvs fan

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Caleb was definitely the shot in the arm that Season 7 needed and I think it would've been better if he'd appeared earlier and had maybe been hiding in plain sight. He could've been introduced as a supposed ally of the scoobies before being revealed to be an agent of the first. Just imagine if the audience knew he was evil but Buffy didn't and she invited him into the house.
.

Agreed from E10 through to 16 they were missing a villain to fight. They'd just sit around Buffys house, the First would show up and say something and then everyone would talk like it's the worst thing in the world. I can't believe Joss and the writers didn't realise a non corporeal villain is useless 🤷‍♂️
 

Faded90

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Unpopular opinion I imagine but the Faith/Spike scene in the basement might be one of my most despised in the verse. Not just because I think Faith/Spike is an insanely lazy pairing, Faith doesn’t do anything wrong in this scene but Spike irritates me far more than he should in this one

when Faith asks if Buffy’s been ‘getting her naughty on’ Spike gives a frustrated sigh and says ‘not as of late’, it’s framed as if Buffy just hasn’t been putting out lately which is just wow. Like really Spike you tried to rape her less than a year ago is it any surprise she hasn’t jumped back into bed with you
 

Stake fodder

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I liked seeing Faith back. Unfortuately, like with so many other S7 plot threads, there just wasn't enough time for her character development. I did like the rapport that she and Spike had, though it didn't last. Spike posed on his bed like an Odalisque made me laugh, as did his being thrown through a vat of wine. Alcohol gets karmic revenge on the biggest drinker?

I loved Xander's speech and Buffy's face while listening to it. It begins a great arc of their friendship being tested, but never questioned. You can tell SMG is having fun playing her First Evil avatar, and she's great at it.

Caleb is the creepiest villain by far, in my opinion. Warren at least had his nerdiness to make him human, but Caleb has no human touches. He's so evil that I wondered if Catholics objected at the original airing, to have a priest depicted as so unchristian.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
They'd have to had gotten behind the Wiccans smarting after the Dark Willow arc of s6 :-D

Stake fodder

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@thrasherpix Hey, at least the Wiccans got a (pre-)apology!

"It could be witches! Some evil witches! Which is ridiculous 'cause witches they were persecuted and Wicca good and love the earth and woman power and I'll be over here."

Where's the pro-priest stanza? ;)
 
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