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Discussion of 7.19 "Empty Places" - Aired 4/29/03 (UPN-US)

Btvs fan

Scooby
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I'm with on you Buffy shouldn't punch Faith which she does once when an arguement gets out of hand. But the rest of it?

Buffy's plan isn't that wrong she's right about the bad guys being where the power is. Faith isn't a bad leader in Sunnydale and she didn't really lead in LA. She stood up to Connor there, she stands up to Kennedy in SD. I think the point is Buffy is right about where to go but not about how to go there. Also for the record whoever said Caleb wrecking the thing over the trapdoor is a plot hole. Buffy did already know there was something there he wrecked it trying to hit Buffy who was deliberately searching for it while staying out of his way. It even possibly she noticed something about it's placement and went near to get Caleb to wreck it. I think a lot of the First's self sabotage is Dick Dastardly Stops to Cheat compulsion to do evil and corrupt just because it can and I think it really hates both Buffy and Spike so specifically does things just to screw them over.
But Buffy is only right about Caleb being where the Power is by Writer fiat. There was no evidence until then for that to be the case or why Caleb would even lead Buffy there in the First place
 

spikenbuffy

"Why can't I stay"
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Faith deserved that punch by Buffy IMO, she knew that Buffy suffered badly about the potentials being killed so she lashed out to Buffy.
 

katmobile

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Faith deserved that punch by Buffy IMO, she knew that Buffy suffered badly about the potentials being killed so she lashed out to Buffy.
Faith is impulsive and old habits die hard she was under attack so she hit back verbally instinctively. I think though when Buffy actually hit her she realised what she'd done and realised that she needed to take the hit and leave at that so things didn't escalate. Hence her bully for me speech she's broken a bad pattern and no one else notices or gives her credit.
 

Stake fodder

Soulless
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I originally thought the idea of having a Big Bad that used psychological torment was brilliant, because your own doubts and fears are the hardest to fight. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself," in other words. Unfortunately, I don't think the idea was executed well in a lot of ways. It would be an obvious thing for TFE to set the good guys against each other, pouring poison in their ears to divide and conquer. It did that in the earlier scene with Dawn and First-Joyce, saying Buffy won't be there for you; Chloe being driven to suicide, and then appearing to the Potentials is maybe another instance. But the concept didn't get built up enough, so Buffy being kicked out just seems abrupt and out of character for a lot of the people, as others have said. TFE did sow doubt, but not much toward this end. Once again, it's the result of trying to cram too much into a season.

I did enjoy seeing Clem on his way out. Though SMG seemed to have a cold in that scene. Just one more thing piling on Buffy!

Xander is usually the wisecracker, of course, so his sad face and attempts at jokes in the hospital, was just heartbreaking to me.

"I guess I'm just ornery." Loved that line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buffy never saw any ghost that she cared about, only Potentials that she didn't always realize were dead, and Caleb. Buffy can't be psyched out like the others, and TFE seems to know this. This is a strength, but it might also mean that she is less able to understand the feelings of those who have been presented with a loved one, because she didn't experience it herself, and she's just tougher.

Yay, road trip! But I'm with Andrew that you need snacks. And the return of onion blossoms, which they never really did explain why Spike eats. Or why he considers knowing the recipe for them to be so embarrassing that he threatens to bite Andrew if he tells anyone. Anyway, it's a welcome light scene in a heavy episode.
 

GothicBuffy

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Yay, road trip! But I'm with Andrew that you need snacks. And the return of onion blossoms, which they never really did explain why Spike eats. Or why he considers knowing the recipe for them to be so embarrassing that he threatens to bite Andrew if he tells anyone.
Road trip scene was the best. The return of the motorspikel! I always wished for more screen time with Spike and Andrew. I wanted to watch them become friends but this show never let Spike be happy 😔
I love that we continue to get more superficial details about Spike's preferences, cementing his "humanness." But at the same time he wants to play the part of the tough vamp.

Anya's speech was so annoying. Telling Buffy she's not special or knows better? Sorry Anya, she is and she does? Thats what the whole "chosen one" deal was all about. People undermining Buffy's authority and experiences was so infuriating and it's been happening since season 1. I didn't have strong feelings about Anya but this ruined her for me.
 

Stake fodder

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Road trip scene was the best. The return of the motorspikel! I always wished for more screen time with Spike and Andrew. I wanted to watch them become friends but this show never let Spike be happy 😔
I love that we continue to get more superficial details about Spike's preferences, cementing his "humanness." But at the same time he wants to play the part of the tough vamp.
It's hard to believe they would have become friends, but I can see Andrew becoming like Spike's annoying kid brother, dressing like him and hanging around. In fact, what happened to Andrew's Spike-ish coat?

I had a whole theory in S5 that Spike's eating was a significant detail, that the chip was altering his brain in some way, making him partly revert to human. But nope!
 

GothicBuffy

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I think the eating thing was just another thing that blurred the lines about Spike. He was supposed to challenge our idea of what a vampire is thus far. I think its significant but not chip induced.
It's hard to believe they would have become friends,
That makes more sense. On that note, do you think Spike could ever have become friends with any of the scoobies? He was always all about Buffy but I liked watching him interact with other people.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
He was friendly with Anya and Dawn (at least pre-S7). Willow, maybe. I hear he roomed with Xander in the comics, but I don't see them ever becoming buddies.
K
katmobile
I think it's due to character development on both sides they sort of do. They still bitch at each other but they actually have more in common than either one cares to admit. I think they acknowledge that.
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