• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Discussion of 7.19 "Empty Places" - Aired 4/29/03 (UPN-US)

Annie Hall

Bangel/Spuffy... Loving love
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
49
Age
38
As I said, if none of the Spuffy stuff happened, then there would be nothing wrong with the Bangel kiss. Up to the end of Season 5, the kiss makes perfect sense. However because of the Spuffy drama and the fact that Spike is still on the scene and he and Buffy are making eyes at each other throughout Season 7, the Bangel kiss does feel a little out of place especially as it precedes Buffy's declaration of "love" for Spike. That's why Buffy needs to pick either Angel or Spike and stick with her decision rather than kissing one and declaring love for the other. It just makes her look like a flip flopper.
Couldn't agree more. She just spent the night with Spike, holding each other, staring into each other eyes. The following day she confronts him and suggests that she has real feelings for him, even though she's not ready to say it out loud... And then she goes and kisses Angel. That kiss was really out of place. And what's worse, she goes back to Spike and scolds him for being jealous. I mean, wtf B?

Edit: I think that the only thing worse than the kiss is Spike taking her back. We know that he's love's bitch. But have a little of self-respect my friend.
 
Last edited:

DayDreamer27

Potential
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
206
As I said, if none of the Spuffy stuff happened, then there would be nothing wrong with the Bangel kiss. Up to the end of Season 5, the kiss makes perfect sense. However because of the Spuffy drama and the fact that Spike is still on the scene and he and Buffy are making eyes at each other throughout Season 7, the Bangel kiss does feel a little out of place especially as it precedes Buffy's declaration of "love" for Spike. That's why Buffy needs to pick either Angel or Spike and stick with her decision rather than kissing one and declaring love for the other. It just makes her look like a flip flopper.
Sadly this happens when writers & Joss Whedon don't have a pair. If they did, they would solidify Bangel or Spuffy and leave it at that. But instead they gotta keep having Buffy flip-flop around & leave stuff open so nobody has to lose, and it just makes everyone lose because these debates go in circles with no clear answers. That's why I hated the season 12 finale. Joss started this little love triangle. The least he could've done was finish it with a definitive pick. Even if it was Spuffy, which I hate, that still would've been an answer. And we Bangels would deal with it.

This was handled properly in an anime / manga series. Inuyasha had this very same issues with Kagome (left) vs. Kikiyo (right). The former being a reincarnation of the latter.



And fandom is split just like Bangel vs. Spuffy. Some love him with Kikiyo because it was his first love, and a more mature relationship. Others hate it because they think Kikyo was selfish in asking Inuyasha to become human so she could live with him as a normal woman. Kikiyo is a rational devoted warrior. Meanwhile Kagome is a WAY more immature & temperamental school girl, and thus she & Inuyasha have a more argumentative relationship. lol

In a twist fluke, Kikiyo was resurrected with part of Kagome's soul, and they exist at the same time. Inuyasha developed feelings for Kagome before this happened, but with Kikyo back, the flip-flopping started. So he's often hated on as a two-timer by fans & characters because he & Kagome started developing feelings before Kikyo came back in the picture.

However, the writer had the stones to actually confirm a ship. Kikiyo is killed, but she & Inuyasha got closure on their relationship, affirmed their love with a final kiss, and said their goodbye before she was gone. DONE. His relationship with Kagome continued to develop, and she's the one he ends up with. But his bond with Kikiyo is always treated as special, and shown that he never has or will stop loving her. Kagome was second, but just as strong & without all the responsibility Kikiyo had, she knew him in ways Kikiyo did not. He x Kagome was the successful story of him x Kikyio.

Whedon needs to take notes. Is it Spike or Angel. Pick one.

Couldn't agree more. She just spent the night with Spike, holding each other, staring into each other eyes. The following day she confronts him and suggests that she has real feelings for him, even though she's not ready to say it out loud... And then she goes and kisses Angel. That kiss was really out of place. And what's worse, she goes back to Spike and scolds him for being jealous. I mean, wtf B?

Edit: I think that the only thing worse than the kiss is Spike taking her back. We know that he's love's bitch. But have a little of self-respect my friend.
Self-respect was never his thing. otherwise it can be argued he wouldn't have agreed to be used by Buffy just to get some. He wanted her on a serious note, but she told him repeatedly that she's using him & all they have is sex. And he's gotten ticked off & complained about not having all of her the way he wanted. But when she tries to end things, he's arguing against it. She says "I'm using you." And he responds "I'm not really complaining here." Even though he has complained before. We see how thirsty Spike is that entire situation. If he didn't drop Buffy then, it shows he never would, regardless of what she does.

Self-respect has not to do with it. He takes whatever she is willing to give. Which happens a lot in real life with F. Buddy & Friends with Benefits. One party wants more, but settles for less because it's better than nothing.
 
Last edited:
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
He slept with Drusilla when she slept with Angelus.

Annie Hall

Bangel/Spuffy... Loving love
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
49
Age
38
f-respect was never his thing. otherwise it can be argued he wouldn't have agreed to be used by Buffy just to get some. He wanted her on a serious note, but she told him repeatedly that she's using him & all they have is sex. And he's gotten ticked off & complained about not having all of her the way he wanted. But when she tries to end things, he's arguing against it. She says "I'm using you." And he responds "I'm not really complaining here." Even though he has complained before. We see how thirsty Spike is that entire situation. If he didn't drop Buffy then, it shows he never would, regardless of what she does.

Self-respect has not to do with it. He takes whatever she is willing to give. Which happens a lot in real life with F. Buddy & Friends with Benefits. One party wants more, but settles for less because it's better than nothing.
Yeah, I know. It just truly bothers me. I love both Bangel and Spuffy, but I have certain bias towards Spike because he's the underdog and he goes a long way within the show. But it always pisses me off that he's just willing to take whatever she gives. At first, I can rationalize it as penance for his crimes as a vampire (although not done in a conscious way) while he fights to be "worthy" of her love, but by the end of the show I'd like him to have the courage of taking a stance. He's truly insecure and once he recovers his soul that insecurity dominates. And I don't like it. As I don't like Buffy going back and forth, I think it's unfair for both Angel and Spike.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,360
Age
39
Yeah, I know. It just truly bothers me. I love both Bangel and Spuffy, but I have certain bias towards Spike because he's the underdog and he goes a long way within the show. But it always pisses me off that he's just willing to take whatever she gives. At first, I can rationalize it as penance for his crimes as a vampire (although not done in a conscious way) while he fights to be "worthy" of her love, but by the end of the show I'd like him to have the courage of taking a stance. He's truly insecure and once he recovers his soul that insecurity dominates. And I don't like it. As I don't like Buffy going back and forth, I think it's unfair for both Angel and Spike.
@DeadlyDuo

It wasnt just Buffy, it felt like Angel did a character reset to BtvS Season 3. All the development on his own show was just thrown out because they wanted to do B/A one more time. I suppose if your a Bangel fan thats great but as I wasnt a Bangel fan, I wasn't even an Angel fan untill he got his own show (then he was great) it just felt jarring. He always did on these crossovers, the Forever Crossover being the exception.

Sadly this happens when writers & Joss Whedon don't have a pair. If they did, they would solidify Bangel or Spuffy and leave it at that. But instead they gotta keep having Buffy flip-flop around & leave stuff open so nobody has to lose, and it just makes everyone lose because these debates go in circles with no clear answers. That's why I hated the season 12 finale. Joss started this little love triangle. The least he could've done was finish it with a definitive pick. Even if it was Spuffy, which I hate, that still would've been an answer. And we Bangels would deal with it.

This was handled properly in an anime / manga series. Inuyasha had this very same issues with Kagome (left) vs. Kikiyo (right). The former being a reincarnation of the latter.



And fandom is split just like Bangel vs. Spuffy. Some love him with Kikiyo because it was his first love, and a more mature relationship. Others hate it because they think Kikyo was selfish in asking Inuyasha to become human so she could live with him as a normal woman. Kikiyo is a rational devoted warrior. Meanwhile Kagome is a WAY more immature & temperamental school girl, and thus she & Inuyasha have a more argumentative relationship. lol

In a twist fluke, Kikiyo was resurrected with part of Kagome's soul, and they exist at the same time. Inuyasha developed feelings for Kagome before this happened, but with Kikyo back, the flip-flopping started. So he's often hated on as a two-timer by fans & characters because he & Kagome started developing feelings before Kikyo came back in the picture.

However, the writer had the stones to actually confirm a ship. Kikiyo is killed, but she & Inuyasha got closure on their relationship, affirmed their love with a final kiss, and said their goodbye before she was gone. DONE. His relationship with Kagome continued to develop, and she's the one he ends up with. But his bond with Kikiyo is always treated as special, and shown that he never has or will stop loving her. Kagome was second, but just as strong & without all the responsibility Kikiyo had, she knew him in ways Kikiyo did not. He x Kagome was the successful story of him x Kikyio.

Whedon needs to take notes. Is it Spike or Angel. Pick one.


Self-respect was never his thing. otherwise it can be argued he wouldn't have agreed to be used by Buffy just to get some. He wanted her on a serious note, but she told him repeatedly that she's using him & all they have is sex. And he's gotten ticked off & complained about not having all of her the way he wanted. But when she tries to end things, he's arguing against it. She says "I'm using you." And he responds "I'm not really complaining here." Even though he has complained before. We see how thirsty Spike is that entire situation. If he didn't drop Buffy then, it shows he never would, regardless of what she does.

Self-respect has not to do with it. He takes whatever she is willing to give. Which happens a lot in real life with F. Buddy & Friends with Benefits. One party wants more, but settles for less because it's better than nothing.
Thats an interesting comparison. You realise though that Spike would be Kagome though 🤓

That's Spike pre- soul your talking about. Souled Spike is either wanting Buffy to kill him (in Never leave me he actively describes some of the things he did in order for her to kill him) or offers to leave to which Buffy says she's not ready for him to go. Her irritated declaration to Willow "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike" being another obvious example.

That's why it was just so jarring. Whedon written himself into hole with this and he he did it in literally the last episode of the show, the time when he really didnt need to !!
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,155
Location
Canada
Sineya
There are television shows featuring polygamy e.g. "Sister Wives", the story of a man living with his four wives. Polygamy is spread throughout the Bible with few constraints other than the advice in the New Testament that a bishop should be husband of only one wife.. But there are no shows depicting polyandry, the wife with a plurality of husbands. This may be the direction things could have gone in with no decision to be made and both sets of shippers equally satisfied (or appalled). Joss could certainly have been in the vanguard of feminism if he had done that. Angel and Spike would have accepted polyandry is Buffy had insisted on it.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
It would be like Brotherly Husbands.

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
1,347
Age
26
Location
United States
I think the Bangel/Spuffy talk should be discussed in the threads of the episodes the scenes actually happened. Angel wasn't in this episode. He was in End of Days and Chosen.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,975
Age
30
Angel and Spike would have accepted polyandry is Buffy had insisted on it.
I don't think they would've. Spike didn't want to share Dru at all and Angelus knew that, hence why he'd make a point of sleeping with Dru to taunt Spike. Both Angel and Spike generally dislike each other, they wouldn't be happy to have the other sleeping with Buffy.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,314
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Angel and Spike would have accepted polyandry is Buffy had insisted on it.
Beyond a couple of jokes I don't think Buffy would ever want this and certainly would never demand it. I actually think she'd be horrified in Spangel ever happened in reality. In a relationship she likes to be the centre of attention and doesn't really like to share.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,360
Age
39
Beyond a couple of jokes I don't think Buffy would ever want this and certainly would never demand it. I actually think she'd be horrified in Spangel ever happened in reality. In a relationship she likes to be the centre of attention and doesn't really like to share.
JW confirmed on a Angel S5 commentary that Angel and Spike have slept together and in S8 that he specifically had written that's shown to be one of Buffys fears
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,975
Age
30
JW confirmed on a Angel S5 commentary that Angel and Spike have slept together and in S8 that he specifically had written that's shown to be one of Buffys fears
JW showed Sunnydale as having docks then showed it to be in the middle of a desert, he chops and changes his mind as and when it suits him. He outright forgot that Warren was dead and had to come up with a cock and bull story around it. Whedon is just trying to be clever and throwing a bone to the Spangel shippers, he tried to be clever at the end of OMWF with the "reveal" that it was Xander that summoned Sweet not Dawn, despite that not making any sense whatsoever character wise.

I don't think Spike and Angel slept together and I think there is evidence for this:

1. Spike and Angel don't particularly like each other.

2. Harmony and Spike had discussed a threesome at some point which Harmony agreed to only if it was "boy, boy, girl or Charlize Theron" which obviously Spike didn't agree to because he doesn't swing that way.

3. When Lindsey buys Spike a drink, Spike tells him "you're not my type".

4. Illyria says something (can't remember the exact line) about those Angel is intimate with coming to harm. If "intimate" is meant to have sexual connotations, then Wesley and Gunn have nothing to fear as they've never had any romantic/sexual interest in Angel.

My theory for that "one time" is that Angelus inadvertently crawled into Spike's bed thinking he was Darla and got a little handsy whilst Spike thought it was initially Dru groping him until they realised with horror who the other was and they never spoke about it again.

Whedon was a part of Season 1 and there are things in there that were retconned, particularly a lot of the vampire things.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,360
Age
39
Let’s start new threads for these side discussions, and go back to discussing this episode.

:)
Ok then, why do you think the final scene was so different in the shooting script to what came on screen. Even Faith's I came here to help not be your lap dog was added in post and not in the script 🤔

@FirstEvil78 shooting script here

 
FirstEvil78
FirstEvil78
Can you make a quick post with the differences between the shooting script and the final scene? I'm not really aware of their differences but it sounds interesting.

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
248
Age
33
Location
Germany
I watched right now season 7 of Buffy again, and the last episode I have seen was Empty Places, I just wonder, why did Buffy not throw them out of her house? After all, it`s her house.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,410
Age
38
I watched right now season 7 of Buffy again, and the last episode I have seen was Empty Places, I just wonder, why did Buffy not throw them out of her house? After all, it`s her house.
Because the writers wanted to make Buffy a martyr and have that perfect Spuffy moment. Much of season 7, especially the last half, can be summed up as writer's fiat just wanting it over and done with, so best as a viewer to not think about it.

One could also ask why they didn't expand to abandoned houses in the first place as that would've been a lot easier on plumbing and storage. Or even into one of the larger mansions (the new vampires couldn't be kept out by lack of an invite anyway). It's not like the police would say anything (or that Buffy, let alone the First, would call to report the wanted felons and unregistered aliens present).

For that matter, why didn't Caleb just march in at full strength with Bringers behind him before getting the scythe, or blow them up as he did the Watchers (or also call the cops)...
 
B
Btvs fan
You should read the shooting script. Its very different to how it is on screen. The Faith moment isnt even in it.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,360
Age
39
Because if Caleb and Co had a coherent strategy then everyone would be dead.
Why did he bother to dig up the scythe at all. Buffy had no idea it even existed ?
Hell why did the First bother to all but tell Buffy about the empowerment spell. Again until it showed up and told her, she had no idea ?
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,975
Age
30
Why did he bother to dig up the scythe at all. Buffy had no idea it even existed ?
Hell why did the First bother to all but tell Buffy about the empowerment spell. Again until it showed up and told her, she had no idea ?
Also if the First had kept Spike out of things, Buffy wouldn't have been any the wiser.

Buffy's victory was a result of the bad guys' stupidity. This is what happens when the writers over sell a threat, they then have to back track in order to make it beatable.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,410
Age
38
My "favorite" part (in regards to Caleb and stupid writing) is where he's trying to keep Buffy from the power, and his very first move is to push over a barrel to reveal the trap door that she instantly jumps down to get the scythe....IIRC, she didn't even know about the scythe yet.

I'm sure there are people who think that's a brilliant metaphor for something rather than lazy writing, but I'm not one of them.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
I tend not to look at the second half of season 7 too deeply because the more I do, the worse it gets.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,360
Age
39
My "favorite" part (in regards to Caleb and stupid writing) is where he's trying to keep Buffy from the power, and his very first move is to push over a barrel to reveal the trap door that she instantly jumps down to get the scythe....IIRC, she didn't even know about the scythe yet.

I'm sure there are people who think that's a brilliant metaphor for something rather than lazy writing, but I'm not one of them.
It gets worse because Buffy's plan at the end of Empty Places makes no sense and they are right to be against it (though you don't kick someone out the house for it) . Yet 2 episodes later, it shows she was right for no other reason than writer fiat 🤷‍♂️

It also hinges on the Plot point of Faith being unable to lead the group even though it ignores Angel S4 where she pretty much took charge straight away.

Btw I also hate Buffy constantly punching Faith. Maybe the writers didn't intend it that way but it came across as abusive and bullying. Then calling her a murderer when A There is 5 other murderers in that house and none of which did Jail time B Buffy herself is an attempted murderer , that maybe she shouldn't throw stones.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,473
Age
49
It gets worse because Buffy's plan at the end of Empty Places makes no sense and they are right to be against it (though you don't kick someone out the house for it) . Yet 2 episodes later, it shows she was right for no other reason than writer fiat 🤷‍♂️

It also hinges on the Plot point of Faith being unable to lead the group even though it ignores Angel S4 where she pretty much took charge straight away.

Btw I also hate Buffy constantly punching Faith. Maybe the writers didn't intend it that way but it came across as abusive and bullying. Then calling her a murderer when A There is 5 other murderers in that house and none of which did Jail time B Buffy herself is an attempted murderer , that maybe she shouldn't throw stones.
I'm with on you Buffy shouldn't punch Faith which she does once when an arguement gets out of hand. But the rest of it?

Buffy's plan isn't that wrong she's right about the bad guys being where the power is. Faith isn't a bad leader in Sunnydale and she didn't really lead in LA. She stood up to Connor there, she stands up to Kennedy in SD. I think the point is Buffy is right about where to go but not about how to go there. Also for the record whoever said Caleb wrecking the thing over the trapdoor is a plot hole. Buffy did already know there was something there he wrecked it trying to hit Buffy who was deliberately searching for it while staying out of his way. It even possibly she noticed something about it's placement and went near to get Caleb to wreck it. I think a lot of the First's self sabotage is Dick Dastardly Stops to Cheat compulsion to do evil and corrupt just because it can and I think it really hates both Buffy and Spike so specifically does things just to screw them over.
 
Top Bottom