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Discussion of 7.20 "Touched" - Aired 5/06/03 (UPN-US)

Jules

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Black Thorn
#2
I really had the urge to smack Kennedy, why did she think that she was suddenly going to be the leader of the group. I loved that Faith put her in her place though. Buffy was good because she instilled order, when you make friends with your troops you loose a sort of authority/respect. I've experienced it in work, being a manager and trying to be friends with your team makes it hard to disapline them. I loved Spike putting them in there places when he got back to the Summer's house. I also loved the Buffy/Spike scene (I cant believe as a Bangel I've just put that :)) I dont know how I feel about Buffy suddenly being able to best Caleb, it seems to happen a lot with her (like with the Ubervamps etc). The ending was great, Buffy finding the Scythe in a very Excalibar kind of way while Faith found a bomb.
 
Taake
Taake
totally agree on Kennedy/Faith thing
white avenger
white avenger
Right. The boss can be friendly, but ha can't afford to be "buddies" with the people who work for him, not, at least, if discilpine is an issue.

white avenger

white avenger
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#3
I dont know how I feel about Buffy suddenly being able to best Caleb, it seems to happen a lot with her (like with the Ubervamps etc). .
Buffy being able to beat the ubervamp and Caleb were both perfect examples of what she was trying to teach the Potentials: Don't fight on your opponent's terms. If the fight isn't going your way, retreat, regroup, come up with a new plan, and force them to fight on your terms, where you have the advantage. Buffy wasn't as strong as either one, so she regrouped, altered her strategy, and forced them to fight on her terms. They were stronger, but she was faster. She utilized that speed and greater agility in order to win.
 
E
EvilWillow
[No message]
K
kittenpoker
exactly!!!!
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
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#4
Isn't Caleb weirded out that the person he's fighting and the person giving him orders look exactly alike? I would be. (Sarah Michelle Gellar must've had more scenes with Nathan Fillion than anybody else, either being worshiped by him, or fighting him).
 

PassionBecoming

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#5
I actually look forward to this episode. I love how Buffy goes from doubting herself to finding her inner Slayer and doing what needs to be done. Spike's speech at the Scoobies and then to Buffy are epic. And the Scoobies realize how much they do need Buffy and should trust her (which apparently she still hasn't proven to them?). Just an awesome overall ep!

-Love Anya's Girl Scout line. :p
-I do like Faith's blunt way of putting things. She probably could be an effective leader if she tried.
-Buffy wandering. :( And really, she didn't kick the guy out, she told him he really should leave. Like, or you're going to die. And apparently she's hungry.
-Spike and Andrew playing I Spy. Harmony replacing!
-Yay Faith for putting Kennedy in her place. She apparently needs continual reminders.
-Giles lasso-ing a Bringer. Heh.
-Yay Dawn for translating Turkish! Even if she didn't need to...
-The only thing with Spike telling them is I really don't feel Giles is "jealous" or whatever that Buffy doesn't "need" him anymore. I think she does, if not as a Watcher/trainer, as a father figure. I've never felt like it was about ego with him, it's about the greater good.
-A big Faith vs. Spike fight would be kind neat to see.
-Hone your tracking skills, Spike. Hone your skills.
-They build weapons? Like Santa's evil elves?
-Buffy's outfit this ep is similar to her S4 almost-finale one. :)
-"Please leave." Buffy sounds so defeated. :(
-Nice seeing mini-Watcher/Slayer moments with Giles and Faith.
-Aww, Mayor. He's evil, but him and Faith were fun together.
-"You really have problems with that word, don't you?" Ouch.
-Spuffy talk. This is a good chat. Especially when Spike lays into her. :p "I don't know, but I'll know when I'm done saying it."
-"I don't wanna be the one." I can't imagine the pressure. But that had to be at least a tad uplifting. And now snuggle time. :)
-I'm glad Faith is opening up to Robin, though. The heel thing. Heh. "School thing."
-And getting it on! Great way to relieve some stress...
-Ugh, Kennedy and Willow moments. *bugs me*
-Xander and Anya are still awesome together, even when just friends.
-I like how they style The First as Buffy's hair.
-SMG looks very small laying next to James.
-I quite enjoy it when Buffy makes a statement entrance. :)
-"It's just a little confusing!" "Fine. Go. Kill." Heh. I love how quippy evil can be.
-Gotta love Buffy gettin' down with her Slayer self. Maybe it's the Angel-esque coat helping her along. ;)
-Faith and girls fighting Bringers. Then leads them into a dark basement. Herm...
-Buffy seeing the scythe...she gets that "Ooo, shiny!" look on her face
-Ugh, bomb. *facepalm*
 
S
SlayerPrincess
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#6
I wonder how much better things would have been if Kennedy had been played by Felicia Day and was characterised more like Felicia's later characters (Since Vi was too underused to say much about her). Although I guess in some ways I can see the positives to Willow not having a great girlfriend in the final season (I don't read the comics) because at least it makes it more obvious that Kennedy doesn't match up to Tara and so I don't take their relationship as seriously.
Andrew grows on me a lot towards the end of the season.
Spike: Rupert. You used to be the big man, didn't you? The teacher all full of wisdom. Now she's surpassed you, and you can't handle it.
While I wasn't totally on Buffy's side last episode, I absolutely love Spike's speech, especially his quip to Giles, which I think explains why Giles isn't so great a character in S7.
 

white avenger

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#7
-The only thing with Spike telling them is I really don't feel Giles is "jealous" or whatever that Buffy doesn't "need" him anymore. I think she does, if not as a Watcher/trainer, as a father figure. I've never felt like it was about ego with him, it's about the greater good.
I don't think that Giles is actually jealous of Buffy as much as he is just looking at her like any parent would look at their child and have a very hard time accepting the fact that that child is now a young adult, capable of making their own decisions. You may still be needed as a mentor, a friend, a shoulder to cry on occasionally, but you are no longer the one who makes the decisions simply because you're the grown up and they're the child.

I know, I know, Buffy didn't have the best track record when it came to obeying Giles' rules at any point during the series, but she did still recognize him as the one with the answers and the one who had to make the tough decisions. Then, suddenly, she's all grown up, making her own tough decisions, trusting her own judgement over Giles', especially when it came to Spike, something that Giles had a very hard time, at best, accepting. That, I think, is ultimately why it was so easy for Wood to talk him into betraying Buffy.
 
bespangeled
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#8
I don't like pod Giles - and I think that Spike is right about what is going on. Giles supports kicking Buffy out of her own home, and then we see him taking over, reassuring Faith that she's doing a good job (a reassurance that Buffy no longer wanted or needed). He's the on who organizes the interrogation of the Bringer, and then jumps up and slits his throat. He's perfectly okay with having Faith take the girls into the same danger that he objected to when Buffy suggested it. I'd say that Spike had it right - Buffy surpassed him and he was the one who couldn't follow.

I hate the trashing that Buffy gets from so many fans who feel that she was a bitch and deserved to be kicked out. I just don't see where she is any different from what she has always been - and she shows it by going and successfully doing exactly what she had proposed by herself - she find what the bad guys had hidden in the winery that belonged to her and it wasn't a stapler. She doesn't hold a grudge, and she supports Faith.

I don't think I can express how much I loathe Giles her, and I loved him up to this season.
 

white avenger

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#9
I don't like pod Giles - and I think that Spike is right about what is going on. Giles supports kicking Buffy out of her own home, and then we see him taking over, reassuring Faith that she's doing a good job (a reassurance that Buffy no longer wanted or needed). He's the on who organizes the interrogation of the Bringer, and then jumps up and slits his throat. He's perfectly okay with having Faith take the girls into the same danger that he objected to when Buffy suggested it. I'd say that Spike had it right - Buffy surpassed him and he was the one who couldn't follow.

I hate the trashing that Buffy gets from so many fans who feel that she was a bitch and deserved to be kicked out. I just don't see where she is any different from what she has always been - and she shows it by going and successfully doing exactly what she had proposed by herself - she find what the bad guys had hidden in the winery that belonged to her and it wasn't a stapler. She doesn't hold a grudge, and she supports Faith.

I don't think I can express how much I loathe Giles her, and I loved him up to this season.
The thing about the mutiny that has always bothered me the most is that the others never even bothered to find out what Buffy was proposing except in the broadest, most vague description possible before deciding that it was a bad plan, most likely putting them all at risk, and, surprise, surprise, they didn't want to do it. Fine for Buffy to do it alone, but they would rather stay there and eat Java Cakes, or whatever they were. Okay, first mistake, her timing was almost certainly wrong in this, making her announcement just as Xander returns from the hospital. but then again, time was running out (Apocalypses always seem to begin sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and end in May) Second mistake, taking the vote was actually a very good idea, but the wording was all wrong. The two choices should have been, 1)Follow Buffy's orders, no whining, protesting, crying, or bitching, or, 2) Follow Faith out the front door. Basically the same two decisions from which to choose, but much more in line with justice.

And, I know that it would be kinda petty for Buffy to shake the Scythe in all their faces and say, "I told you so," but sometimes pettiness is excusable in order to make a point.

Also one last thing. Do you think that it ever occurred to anyone that following Faith to the weapons cache where all the ubervamps were waiting actually resulted in more casualties than following Buffy's plan, whatever it was, would have. Only Caleb and the First Evil were at the vineyard. The First Evil can't directly harm anyone, and no matter how powerful Caleb was, ultimately, it would have been like a bull moose trying to defend itself against a pack of wolves. He can't face in all directions at once, which means that there would always be someone attacking from the rear. Even if they couldn't kill him, they could certainly have distracted him while Buffy found the Scythe. Certainly, that could be attributed simply to the fortunes of war, but it's still a valid point, nonetheless, since the more successful plan had been the one arrived at by the older, more experienced Slayer, while the relatively inexperienced, and far less familiar with the current situation Slayer wound up being the one to go "BOOM!"
 
bespangeled
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#10
It suddenly occurred to me, that William must have been a virgin when he died, given his age, status and the social conventions at the time. So the only sexual experiences he's had until 'Touched' were soulless. It gives a whole different spin to 'it was the best night of my life', if it was the first intimate experience he's had with a soul. Aw.
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
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white avenger

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#11
It suddenly occurred to me, that William must have been a virgin when he died, given his age, status and the social conventions at the time. So the only sexual experiences he's had until 'Touched' were soulless. It gives a whole different spin to 'it was the best night of my life', if it was the first intimate experience he's had with a soul. Aw.
It's a pretty fair guess that William was a virgin when he was turned, and given his sense of loyalty, almost as sure a bit that Dru was the only partner he ever had as a vampire prior to his time with Buffy.
 
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#12
It's a pretty fair guess that William was a virgin when he was turned, and given his sense of loyalty, almost as sure a bit that Dru was the only partner he ever had as a vampire prior to his time with Buffy.
Which would mean his only partners were Dru, Angel, and possibly Darla:D

But don't forget Harmony, and possibly wedding skank.
 

nightshade

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#13
It's a pretty fair guess that William was a virgin when he was turned, and given his sense of loyalty, almost as sure a bit that Dru was the only partner he ever had as a vampire prior to his time with Buffy.
Don't forget Harmony!

Spike however did mention that he had done things, when talking about/to Dawn, can't remember what, but it seemed to imply that he had raped girls before
 

white avenger

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#14
Don't forget Harmony!
Why not? She's and Riley Finn are my most forgettable two characters in the Buffyverse,

No, seriously, I meant that Spike hadn't had any lovers besides Dur prior to coming to Sunnydale. After his arrival, there were only Harm and the Buffy Bot, both on about the same intellectual level, before Buffy.
 
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#16
Yeah, Spike was a monster alright in his pre souled days and I suspect he'd raped just like Angelus and every other vampire out there.
And Spangel is canon - Dru was not the only one Spike had consensual sex with. Well, it may not have been consensual with Angel all the time. Sexually dominating Spike would be the best way to make sure he knew his place. Hey - vampires are about unleashed appetite - no restrictions. Sex is a very strong appetite. Once Angelus left, and the two left Darla, I would imagine that Spike was faithful to Dru.
 

white avenger

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#17
Which would mean his only partners were Dru, Angel, and possibly Darla:D

But don't forget Harmony, and possibly wedding skank.
I seriously doubt that Angel would have let Spike survive sleeping with Darla> She considered his, exclusively. He probably felt that he was being extremely gracious by even sharing Dru. Harm, maybe. His wedding date? I doubt it. By then, he was totally under Buffy's thumb, whether she wanted him there or not.

Yeah, Spike was a monster alright in his pre souled days and I suspect he'd raped just like Angelus and every other vampire out there.
He said at some point that, unlike Angel, he was "all about the kill," which I took to mean that, while Angel enjoyed the torture and rape of the innocents, he, himself, never bothered with anything but the blood, which seemed to tie in with his statement about knowing just how much blood to drain, and let his victims cry before finally killing them.
 
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#18
But he did hint as much in season seven did he not?

I can't believe he didn't. He was a souless vamp at that part of his life after all.
 
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#19
I seriously doubt that Angel would have let Spike survive sleeping with Darla> She considered his, exclusively. He probably felt that he was being extremely gracious by even sharing Dru. Harm, maybe. His wedding date? I doubt it. By then, he was totally under Buffy's thumb, whether she wanted him there or not.
And I am equally sure that Angelus would not have survived preventing Darla from sleeping with Spike if she wanted to - out of curiosity, desire or spite.. Keep in mind that Angelus belonged to Darla - not the other way around. They were vampires - they nested. Do you really think that Dru and Darla let themselves be controlled sexually?

ANGELUS
Just don't get it now, do you?
Well, you're new... and a little dim. So let me explain to you how things are now. There's no belonging or deserving anymore. You can take what you want, have what you want... but nothing is yours.
(Drusilla walks out into the doorway)
Not even her.

Spike can take and have anything he wants. And Angel can take it from him. I think that right there explains their entire relationship. But Angelus would need to employ chastity devices and constant surveillance to keep anyone from screwing against his wishes. He had far more important urges to attend to.


He said at some point that, unlike Angel, he was "all about the kill," which I took to mean that, while Angel enjoyed the torture and rape of the innocents, he, himself, never bothered with anything but the blood, which seemed to tie in with his statement about knowing just how much blood to drain, and let his victims cry before finally killing them.
Uhm, I thought he wanted the victim to be able to cry while they were being raped.
 

white avenger

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#20
Do you really think that Dru and Darla let themselves be controlled sexually?
.
No, not at all. I just think that Angelus would have staked William if he had tried anything, or if he had cooperated if Darla tried anything. William believed him, so, even if the situation presented itself, Spike would have run away rather than put Angelus to the test. Though, now that I think of it, right after Spike killed his first Slayer, Darla might have wanted to share in the bounty, or just to put newly ensouled Angel in his place as #4 on the pecking list by that time.

As for Dru, yes, I do believe that she let herself be controlled sexually by Angelus, at least to the extent that dhe was his, any time that he wanted her.
 
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