Discussion of 7.20 "Touched" - Aired 5/06/03 (UPN-US)

[bespangeled]

No, not at all. I just think that Angelus would have staked William if he had tried anything, or if he had cooperated if Darla tried anything. William believed him, so, even if the situation presented itself, Spike would have run away rather than put Angelus to the test. Though, now that I think of it, right after Spike killed his first Slayer, Darla might have wanted to share in the bounty, or just to put newly ensouled Angel in his place as #4 on the pecking list by that time.

As for Dru, yes, I do believe that she let herself be controlled sexually by Angelus, at least to the extent that dhe was his, any time that he wanted her.

ANGELUS
(to Darla) Did he hurt ya?

DARLA
(writhes, smiles naughtily)
Not until I asked him to.
(stands, wrapped in a sheet)
Oh, come on. Have you seen him? With the eyes and the chest and the...
(sighs blissfully)
immortality.

WILLIAM
We're immortal.

DARLA
(in the corner dressing, putting on a robe)
Not like him. I mean, he's not some common vampire. He's—I don't know what he is. A giant. A titan straddling good and evil, serving no master but his own considerable desires.

ANGELUS
Darla—

DARLA
And spiritual. Did you know he spent 150 years in a Tibetan monastery? Which I guess explains all the desire.

ANGELUS
He's my arch-nemesis.

DARLA
Darling. It was just fornication.
(chuckles)
Really great fornication.

WILLIAM
(steps in for a closer look at Darla)
She's glowing, mate.

ANGELUS
(brushing him off)
She isn't.

DARLA
(nods)
Little bit.

WILLIAM
(to Angelus) Best fit you for a pair of antlers. Been made the right cuckold, you have.

DRUSILLA
(steps out from the next room wearing a lacy negligee)
Time for another pony ride?

WILLIAM
(sees Drusilla, gasps)
Son of a bitch!

ANGELUS
(points from Darla to Drusilla)
The both of ya?

DARLA
(shrugs, giggles)
He's insatiable.

Angelus really did not have any control over the sexuality of either woman. He couldn't even convince them to leave the Immortal's house and stop sleeping with his enemy.

 

[gite63]

Great episode.

Spike arrives and after knowing what happened, he gets mad; wise words he says. And when Faith answer with "the time for speech-giving is over" (Buffy really loves giving speeches), he gets even madder and punches her...

They kick Buffy out of the house without hearing what exactly she had to say, and then they reunite in chaos to decide that Caleb and The First are keeping something important from the Slayer, and that they should go and retrieve it. They only were too reliant on the source who told them where to look for it: a Bringer who used to do the First's biding...

Faith tells Kennedy to back off - and the girl really needed a good scold, she was out of line - but also later, she gives strengh to Willow, saying she will be her kite string; I think Will needed that.

Why do Xander and Anya don't get back together already?

Giles seems to be at easy with the absence of Buffy, giving orders and cutting throats, as well as Wood - he, who suggested to Buffy that the Potentials should be tested, now is saying that he "knows" that Faith is a good leader, siding with her and apparently expecting to be her wing man - but Faith quickly puts him in his place...

The First Evil is now just wasting its time; Faith isn't the one she used to be anymore; she's shaken, but not even for a second is tempted to switch sides.

And then, Spike finds Buffy and gives her the strength and confidence she was mostly in need at the moment. Not only his insightful speech, but also his presence, put her on track again - such a beautiful moment: "You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy."

So, Buffy figures it out: you can beat me to death - but for that, you have to catch me first. Simply as that.

 

[GoSpuffy]

It's a pretty fair guess that William was a virgin when he was turned, and given his sense of loyalty, almost as sure a bit that Dru was the only partner he ever had as a vampire prior to his time with Buffy.

He also "partnered" with Angel and Darla.
 
My problem with Giles backing Wood was that he knew he was trying to kill a souled being. Buffy explained eloquently to Xander and Dawn why warren couldn't be killed. I expected better from Giles. I loved this episode and how it brought Buffy and Spike closer and prepared Spike a little more for what he was going to have to do for Buffy in the hell mouth.

 

[bespangeled]

Giles seems to be at easy with the absence of Buffy, giving orders and cutting throats, as well as Wood - he, who suggested to Buffy that the Potentials should be tested, now is saying that he "knows" that Faith is a good leader, siding with her and apparently expecting to be her wing man - but Faith quickly puts him in his place...

I think Giles wanted a slayer who would look to him for approval - Buffy didn't need him anymore once he betrayed her so he actively helped to discard her in order to get a more cooperative weapon against the First. Without the bond that Buffy and Giles had that is the relationship that a slayer and watcher have. The watcher is in charge and the slayer is a weapon. He reassured Faith several times that she was doing a great job, but he also took control out of her hands without her resisting - cutting the throat being a good example.

As for Willow and Xander - no. Just no. I really believe that if Buffy had stayed to play a few hands of whatever card ame they wanted to play then they would have spoken up against kicking her out.

Just look at the dialogue in that scene - it's all about attacking Buffy and has nothing to do with her "plan" . Giles needed someone to be the general and make the hard choices and he only trusted himself. He used Buffy's faith in him against her, and when she felt betrayed he moved on to help install Faith in her position. And Faith just wasn't ready yet.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

They kick Buffy out of the house without hearing what exactly she had to say, and then they reunite in chaos to decide that Caleb and The First are keeping something important from the Slayer, and that they should go and retrieve it. They only were too reliant on the source who told them where to look for it: a Bringer who used to do the First's biding...

Not to put too finer a point on it but didn't Caleb say that he had something of Buffy's and Buffy believed him...and in the end it turned out that he did- the Scythe
So why is it bad when the Scoobies do the same as Buffy? Believe the baddies, because at least here they're been proactive and we see their reasoning and it makes sort of a sense, unlike Buffy's 'where the power is' leap.

Like Buffy says to the Potentials later- 'she's would've fallen for the trap as well', if fact she did fall for a trap in 'Dirty Girls'.

So, Buffy figures it out: you can beat me to death - but for that, you have to catch me first. Simply as that.

By far the worst moment of the episode imo. So silly.
The best parts are the Buffy/Spike conversation and the Mayor/Wood ones

 

[white avenger]

He also "partnered" with Angel and Darla.

Spike refers to "that one time..." with Angel, but I must have missed anything mentioned about him and Darla, though I wouldn't rule it out. She looked pretty much like a "if it feels good, do it" sort of lady.

My problem with Giles backing Wood was that he knew he was trying to kill a souled being.

Spike with a soul wouldn't be any more sacred to Giles than Ben at the end of Season 5. He knew then that Buffy wouldn't approve of killing Ben, even though he was sure that Ben would return as a threat later if left alive. Taking the life of a human, or an ensouled being, was Buffy's concern, especially back in Season 3, when it was Faith doing the killing, though not so much by Season 5, when she was killing Knights of Byzantium with both enthusiasm and efficiency.

I think Giles wanted a slayer who would look to him for approval - Buffy didn't need him anymore once he betrayed her so he actively helped to discard her in order to get a more cooperative weapon against the First.

This has been Giles' problem ever since he left Sunnydale, and Buffy, "for her own good," in Season 6. He wants Buffy to take charge, but to still defer to his wisdom and advice whenever he feels like giving it.

As for Willow and Xander - no. Just no. I really believe that if Buffy had stayed to play a few hands of whatever card game they wanted to play then they would have spoken up against kicking her out.

I try and be generous in Xander's case by saying that he was still somewhat under the influence of pain medication at the time of the mutiny. I can see no such excuse in Willow's case. Hers was just plain betrayal of someone who should have earned her unquestioned trust years earlier. Maybe that tongue stud of Kennedy's was already clouding her judgement by that time.

Just look at the dialogue in that scene - it's all about attacking Buffy and has nothing to do with her "plan" . Giles needed someone to be the general and make the hard choices and he only trusted himself.

As has been said before, Buffy's plan remains a total mystery to this day. "We're going back to the vineyard" is a destination, not a plan, in anything but the very broadest of interpretations. Faith had legitimate concerns about facing Caleb again without more intelligence (and possibly a tank) but those concerns might very well have been addressed if everything hadn't gotten out of hand at that point. One sane voice saying, "Let's all take a moment and hear Buffy out, then we can work this out," would have almost certainly diverted what followed. One single supporter taking Buffy's side could have averted what happened. That SHOULD have been Giles, the mentor, the father figure, the wise, experienced patriarch, the voice of wisdom, but he still had his ego damaged from Buffy's justified reaction to his part in the failed attempt to kill Spike. He didn't actually sit in the corner sulking, but the result was pretty much the same.

If there were an appropriate time to send the Wood and the Potentials to the Bronze while Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies worked out the details, that would have been it.

 

[bespangeled]

Spike refers to "that one time..." with Angel, but I must have missed anything mentioned about him and Darla, though I wouldn't rule it out. She looked pretty much like a "if it feels good, do it" sort of lady.

Nooo - personal pet peeve. He said "just that one....." It could be that one weekend or that one decade. Or that one time...after the soul because before then.... It could even be "Just that one time...rest of the time we just shagged."

One single supporter taking Buffy's side could have averted what happened. That SHOULD have been Giles, the mentor, the father figure, the wise, experienced patriarch, the voice of wisdom, but he still had his ego damaged from Buffy's justified reaction to his part in the failed attempt to kill Spike. He didn't actually sit in the corner sulking, but the result was pretty much the same.

BUFFY
(grinning nervously, looks around) I—I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this— exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what— suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?

GILES
Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed.

Buffy never said she couldn't trust them. She said sometimes it felt like Spike was the only one who had her back - in a private conversation, after having her ass beat, to the person who had tried to kill Spike once and then sent him away. He escalates and directs the mutiny. I have to say that I do see the work of the First here, though.

Everyone always talks about how out of character they all act - and this is what the First does. It is the only weapon that the First has - to affect the feelings and actions of people. Giles is acting like Quentin Travers.

If there were an appropriate time to send the Wood and the Potentials to the Bronze while Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies worked out the details, that would have been it.

I love this!

 

[gite63]

Not to put too finer a point on it but didn't Caleb say that he had something of Buffy's and Buffy believed him...and in the end it turned out that he did- the Scythe
So why is it bad when the Scoobies do the same as Buffy? Believe the baddies, because at least here they're been proactive and we see their reasoning and it makes sort of a sense, unlike Buffy's 'where the power is' leap.

It wasn't bad, or even wrong - it just happened to be the same thing Buffy said, and she had reached that conclusion by her own:

ANDREW: So, it turned out that all these stone tablets basically said the same thing. The First and Caleb are protecting something, and—and we don't know exactly what it is, but it's something powerful, and they don't want the slayers to get it. I'm thinking it could be a weapon, and if we're looking for an arsenal—

And if before, they had fallen into a trap (at the vineyard), they should be more careful this time and not rush, if they thought that Buffy was so wrong to the point to having kicked her out from the house.

By far the worst moment of the episode imo. So silly.

The problem with making a villain so much stronger than the Slayer, is that she can be beaten by him once, twice, but eventually she had to overpower him in some way... I liked it.

As for Willow and Xander - no. Just no. I really believe that if Buffy had stayed to play a few hands of whatever card ame they wanted to play then they would have spoken up against kicking her out.

Maybe - but Buffy didn't stay because she couldn't deal with it, not because she was a callous... person. But Will and Xander were in so much pain, too, so they couldn't think, figure out and understand Buffy's feelings. It's not a question of who were right or wrong, it was an awful situation.

Spike with a soul wouldn't be any more sacred to Giles than Ben at the end of Season 5.

What he did to Spike matters less then what he did to Buffy.

That SHOULD have been Giles, the mentor, the father figure, the wise, experienced patriarch, the voice of wisdom, but he still had his ego damaged from Buffy's justified reaction to his part in the failed attempt to kill Spike.

Yep.

Everyone always talks about how out of character they all act - and this is what the First does. It is the only weapon that the First has - to affect the feelings and actions of people. Giles is acting like Quentin Travers.

And I believe in that, too - although the seeds were inside everyone of them.

 

[white avenger]

Nooo - personal pet peeve. He said "just that one....." It could be that one weekend or that one decade. Or that one time...after the soul because before then.... It could even be "Just that one time...rest of the time we just shagged."

No intention to peeve your pet. My point was, we know, or assume, that Spike and Angelus did something on some occasion, regardless of length of duration (my theory is that Angelus raped Spike, something like what the alpha wolf will do to other males in his pack in order to enforce his dominance, but with no more details that we are actually given, either your view, mine, or something entirely different from both could be the actual fact) but I don't recall there ever being any definite mention of Darla doing anything with Spike. There could have been every kind of coupling shared by any or all members of the pack, regardless of gender and "normal" coupling on a regular basis, for all we know. That would seem to actually in character for most soulless, totally amoral beings such as vampires.

 

[GoSpuffy]

No intention to peeve your pet. My point was, we know, or assume, that Spike and Angelus did something on some occasion, regardless of length of duration (my theory is that Angelus raped Spike, something like what the alpha wolf will do to other males in his pack in order to enforce his dominance, but with no more details that we are actually given, either your view, mine, or something entirely different from both could be the actual fact) but I don't recall there ever being any definite mention of Darla doing anything with Spike. There could have been every kind of coupling shared by any or all members of the pack, regardless of gender and "normal" coupling on a regular basis, for all we know. That would seem to actually in character for most soulless, totally amoral beings such as vampires.

I think a lot of people feel the fanged four had relationships because of the flashback in season 5 AtS where the immortal was with dru and darla at the same time and spike and angelus complained you never let us do that, the way it is said makes it appear they did everything but that, consecutively was okay - concurrently was not.

 

[bespangeled]

No intention to peeve your pet. My point was, we know, or assume, that Spike and Angelus did something on some occasion, regardless of length of duration (my theory is that Angelus raped Spike, something like what the alpha wolf will do to other males in his pack in order to enforce his dominance, but with no more details that we are actually given, either your view, mine, or something entirely different from both could be the actual fact) but I don't recall there ever being any definite mention of Darla doing anything with Spike. There could have been every kind of coupling shared by any or all members of the pack, regardless of gender and "normal" coupling on a regular basis, for all we know. That would seem to actually in character for most soulless, totally amoral beings such as vampires.

I am very sure he raped Spike - and taught Spike to enjoy pain with his pleasure. Yes, Angelus was the alpha, and he wasn't going to let Spike live without acknowledging that. I also agree with you on the rest - no mention but assumptions. They have the entire day to play - I assume that sex was a big part of it. We also know that Angelus had no real control over the choices Darla made, and limited control over the choices Dru made - because he couldn't even get them to leave the Immortal, his enemy. All we know is that both girls didn't allow one guy to sleep with them (concurrently).

Pet peeve is only saying one time instead of one...

 

[GoSpuffy]

Pet peeve is only saying one time instead of one...

Didn't he say he and Angel just that one time? I thought it was one time for Angel but countless times for Angelus?

 

[bespangeled]

Didn't he say he and Angel just that one time? I thought it was one time for Angel but countless times for Angelus?

ILLYRIA
You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

Which could mean so much. I tend to think it might be just that one time, the rest of the time we just shagged. Because I can't imagine Spike thinking he and harmony had ever been intimate. I think that the night he spent holding Buffy was being intimate but shagging her was not, as he later realized.

However it could be Angel vs Angelus I assume that he and Angelus did it pretty often - as Joss said. He and Angel , not so much.

 

[GoSpuffy]

ILLYRIA
You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

Which could mean so much. I tend to think it might be just that one time, the rest of the time we just shagged. Because I can't imagine Spike thinking he and harmony had ever been intimate. I think that the night he spent holding Buffy was being intimate but shagging her was not, as he later realized.

However it could be Angel vs Angelus I assume that he and Angelus did it pretty often - as Joss said. He and Angel , not so much.

that's what I took it to mean. Angel and he were intimate one time. He and Angelus were like bunnies.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

It wasn't bad, or even wrong - it just happened to be the same thing Buffy said, and she had reached that conclusion by her own:

I think the key diiference is that, similar or not- the Scoobies are talking amongst themselves instead of just been given orders.
Also their deductive reasoning doesn't rely on Caleb being totally dense and telling the truth about his hidden base ('I've got something of yours'), it gives the appearance that the villain is actually sneaky and deceptive. Which is better writing imv.

I don't blame Buffy for falling into the first trap and I don't really blame any of the others for falling into the second.

The problem with making a villain so much stronger than the Slayer, is that she can be beaten by him once, twice, but eventually she had to overpower him in some way... I liked it.

It wasn't the tactics (those made sense), the was the tone of the whole scene.
Caleb flailing around stupidly, The First sighing in irritation and Buffy's lame quips 'woman hating jerk?' made it all cringe-worthy imv- the fight in the next episode is much better because Caleb is treated like a threat again.

 

[white avenger]

It wasn't the tactics (those made sense), the was the tone of the whole scene.
Caleb flailing around stupidly, The First sighing in irritation and Buffy's lame quips 'woman hating jerk?' made it all cringe-worthy

I saw Caleb "flailing around stupidly" as an indication that Buffy finally had found his weakness. As powerful as he was, he was, by comparison to herself, slow and somewhat clumsy. (His fighting style seemed to consist of walking around slowly, breaking necks and gouging out eyes. We never saw him actually demonstrate anything like speed or balance. He was pure brute force, nothing more) The quips and taunts just helped to keep him too angry to realize what she was doing to him. If Buffy had ever let up, allowed him to actually see what was going on, Caleb would have simply stood over the entrance to the Scythe chamber and Buffy wouldn't have been able to get past him.

 

[gite63]

I think the key diiference is that, similar or not- the Scoobies are talking amongst themselves instead of just been given orders.

Which led them to more death and injured people - it was war, not a school committee for the annual dance. So, their "rebellion" caused still more damage, not their plan itself.

If they had listening to what Buffy had to say, had allowed her to "talk strategies", respecting her leadership, maybe Buffy (or somebody else) would have reached the same conclusion she reached by her own - how to overpower Caleb without being beaten to death. He would have been bonkers with two Slayers mocking him and avoiding his deadly punches...

 

[bespangeled]

Buffy gave orders throughout the entire series - she's right that this was what she had always done. And the others took them - because she kept them alive:

Spiral:

BUFFY
(increasingly frazzled)
We can't stay here. Glory will kill us
off one by one until there's nobody
standing between her and Dawn.

GILES
Buffy, we all understand the severity
of the situation, but there must be another --

BUFFY
(on the edge)
No! We stay -- we die! Show of
hands for that option?
Uneasy glances around the room.

BUFFY (cont'd)
All right. Nobody goes home,
nobody tells anyone we're leaving.
We grab whatever supplies we can
and that's it -- we're gone.

DAWN
(rattled, trying not to show it)
Cool. Won't have to study for that
geometry test.

XANDER
What about wheels? I don't think
everybody's gonna fit in the Xan-mobile.

BUFFY
Just get your stuff together.
I'll take care of it.

*****


GILES
What's he doing here?

SPIKE
(dryly)
Just out for a jaunt. Thought I'd
swing by and say howdy.

GILES
Out.
Giles takes a step towards Spike. Buffy stops him.

BUFFY
He's here because we need him.

XANDER
The hell we do.

BUFFY
If Glory finds us, he's the only one
besides me that has a chance of
protecting Dawn.

XANDER
Buffy, come on, he --

Buffy explodes -- she so doesn't need this right now.

BUFFY
This isn't a discussion! He stays.
Get over it.

Now compare this to the Empty Places dialogue, and you can see that Buffy was being Buffy!

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Every time I see this episode I think of the poor Potentials stuck in the living room listening to the 'acapella concert of people moaning and groaning'.

BTW, where the hell was Andrew staying? They never seemed to imply that he slept in the living room with the Potentials, and all the other rooms were occupied...

I can totally imagine him walking into the kitchen for a midnight snack and noticing Xander and Anya doing it on the floor, completely oblivious as Andrew fixes himself a sandwich.

that's what I took it to mean. Angel and he were intimate one time. He and Angelus were like bunnies.

I'm sure they were, but for me the visual that comes to mind is them stuck in a cabin in the middle of nowhere during a snowstorm. The girls aren't going to be back for a couple weeks (they're probably with the Immortal anyway), and there isn't enough wood to sustain a fire for more than a day...

 

[Iwearthecheese]

I saw Caleb "flailing around stupidly" as an indication that Buffy finally had found his weakness. As powerful as he was, he was, by comparison to herself, slow and somewhat clumsy. (His fighting style seemed to consist of walking around slowly, breaking necks and gouging out eyes. We never saw him actually demonstrate anything like speed or balance. He was pure brute force, nothing more)

Caleb fought Spike and Faith pretty effectively. I know that Buffy is faster than both those two in most situations but the way it was depicted was silly.
I wouldn't have minded her using some Aikido- using Caleb's strength against him a couple of time- to thrown him about and keep him off balance until she found what she was looking for.

The quips and taunts just helped to keep him too angry to realize what she was doing to him.

I just thinik Buffy's quip and taunts were incredibly lame and had been for seasons now.

If they had listening to what Buffy had to say, had allowed her to "talk strategies", respecting her leadership, maybe Buffy (or somebody else) would have reached the same conclusion she reached by her own - how to overpower Caleb without being beaten to death. He would have been bonkers with two Slayers mocking him and avoiding his deadly punches...

And again, Buffy's strategy relied on getting out of the way of Caleb- hard to do if there's more than one of you running about.

Besdies that's a big maybe.
I'm not saying the mutiny was great or anything, only that their plan wasn't inherently bad- from what we saw of it. We can judge it, and from what we heard of Buffy's hers wouldn't have worked.

Buffy gave orders throughout the entire series - she's right that this was what she had always done. And the others took them - because she kept them alive:
Spiral:

And 'Spiral' didn't end so well because they all followed Buffy's orders without question. Disaster and catatonic Buffy.

Then in 'The Gift' every contribute and plays a part in the plan- victory.

There's the moral right there.