Discussion of 8.14 "Wolves at the Gate Part 3" - Releasesd 5/07/08 (Dark Horse)

[Allycat]

Can't believe nobody posted about this issue yet.


I also can't believe Buffy set fire to the captured vampire. I thought that that was a very un-heroic and un-Buffy thing to do. I can understand it in light of her new position of general of an army though.

My feelings about the Buffy/Satsu argument were as mixed as Satsu's. It was both endearing and annoying at some level. I hope Buffy/Joss is not gonna dump Satsu in Japan forever. That would be a pity. The sexy-line was hilarious btw.

I loved that Renee and Xander finally kissed. That whole scene was funny and endearing too. But then all of a sudden at the end of the issue :O:O:O:O

They killed Renee!!!!

 

[nerd4hire]

I laughed out loud when they teleported Dawn in as a distraction, and she goes "Oh hi...Uh, I mean ROAR".

Shock at the end much? This inappropriate line jumped into my head...

"Oh my God they killed Renee. You ***tards."

 

[Primal Slayer]

It was a good issue. I was totally into the Renee/Xander romance and then they went and killed her...such a Buffy thing to do. She was probably my favorite "new" charecter. I would rather have satsu die (I thought she was with the whole going against Buffys command and going in hot-headed).

Nice to see Dawn be active but cant wait for to go back to her normal heigth and become more central with the rest of the scoobies.

and I hope they start drawing her more S7ish and give Willow some pants to wear.

 

[goldenboy]

Goddard pulled a classic Whedon! Why didn't I see that coming from ten zillion miles away. So very Joss, and so very comic book, that last panel.

Ugh.

Dawn's "Roar?" is in my top 10 Buffy 8 quotes I do believe.

 

[Canon]

Poor poor Xander I know that we should always expect deaths like that (being a Joss creation and all), but to be honest I thought it was gonna be Satsu after she insisted on fighting, so I didn't expect Renee to get killed.

I can't wait to see how this ties up, roll on next month!

Oh, and I'm actually really enjoying the Batsu interaction. I'm with Allycat in saying that the sexy-line was great.

 

[Karl]

I think that killing characters in this way has become absolutely ridicelous in the Buffyverse. I wasn't shocked, I just sighed. By the end of season 8 all the lovers will be probably dead.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I hope Xander realises that he has the kiss of death...seriously, every girl he has seriously liked has died. Cordy/Anya/Renee/Buffy. Willow is the only one. Writing this, I now wonder: do the scoobies know that Cordelia is dead?

 

[white avenger]

I think that killing characters in this way has become absolutely ridicelous in the Buffyverse. I wasn't shocked, I just sighed. By the end of season 8 all the lovers will be probably dead.

I have to agree. The first couple of times it happened, it was a shock and a surprise. After that, though, it became almost boring. Jesse, Jenny Calendar, Joyce, Angel, Buffy, Spike, Doyle, Cordy, Wesley, Darla, Lilah, Lindsey, Book, Wash...Joss seems almost obsessed with the idea of killing off his actors. Okay, some of them have come back and certainly, in the real world, people die, and Joss' characters all pursue occupations that are hazardous to say the least, but DAMN! He's killed off more regulars than any other 5 creators I know of, and there's just no real reason for it.

Once or twice, for the shock factor, is maybe excusable. Beyond that is just killing to show the fans that he can, and it's downright inconsiderate, plus it's really a kind of lazy way to advance your story line. This is "Buffy," or "Angel," or "Serenity," for crying out loud, not "300," or "The Alamo." We expect to see our heroes survive.

 

[Allycat]

I think that killing characters in this way has become absolutely ridicelous in the Buffyverse. I wasn't shocked, I just sighed. By the end of season 8 all the lovers will be probably dead.

I sort of feel the same. It was a real "not again" moment. We've been here before so many times. It's not original any more. The only thing I'm glad about is that this furthers to inevitable Bander-plot I'm still expecting.

 

[Joyce Summers]

Originally posted white avenger
Once or twice, for the shock factor, is maybe excusable. Beyond that is just killing to show the fans that he can, and it's downright inconsiderate, plus it's really a kind of lazy way to advance your story line.

I think Joss has stated many times that he hates and/or fears people. Killing them off gives him a happy really. And as much as a Buffy/Angelverse death always saddens me greatly, I like it in the fact that the death in question always brings us crashing down to Earth. At the time we're riding on this high of action and supernatural kick-assness like we have been with season 8 and then boom! Suddenly someone we love or have grown attached to dies. It reminds us of the reality of the fiction so-to-speak. Yes, this is an action, fighting world but in such a world we can't ride on the high forever; people die and we lose people we/the characters love.

More depressing each time it happens, but it is the Jossian way. Clearly he corrupted all the writing staff with this warped idea/view when they were under his power. I mean working for him.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I liked this issue (except for the end). I was all, "la, la, la, Dracula's funny, oh look how cute giant Dawn is . . . EEP!!"

When the Buffy-Satsu interaction panels started, I was thinking, Oh, here we go again. Buffy does this every time. BUT Satsu didn't react the same way Angel and Riley and Spike did, so I have a bit more respect for her. I'm still kind of "eesh" on the whole relationship, but I don't dislike the way Satsu's handling it.

But Renee! I loved her! I was so happy for her and Xander! Which I guess should have tipped me off to the fact that she was going to DIE. Joss is all proud of the way he doesn't kill people for having sex, but he kills them for being happy, which is just as bad, if you ask me. It's as if he's miserable and alone, so all of his characters have to be just as miserable and alone just so he feels better about himself. Which is ridiculous considering he's married and has kids, so he SHOULDN'T be miserable and alone.

 

[Tranquillity]

I thought this was the best issue of the arc so far - but i have to say it's been my least favourite arc, hopefuly we'll be in for a big finish next month. I didn't mind Buffy burning the vamp, she has to fight fire with fire and if the vampires are going to go *poof* every time she tries to stake them then she has to have a workable plan B. Good for Buffy and her Zippo lighter! I wonder if they could kill Dracula this way...

Love how Dawn was magicked to Japan, love her line (as others ^ have observed) - but hate that she's drawn with the face of a 12 year old girl not a 17 or 18 year old (or whatever she is)! For me, she looks too baby-faced.

Loved Renee in this one, should have guessed she was about to die
I wonder how Xander will react. He must be getting mighty sick of his girlfriends dying in Buffy's ongoing war with evil. Will this make him more or less likely to be the traitor i wonder? Does it make the prospect of Bander more or less likely?

 

[nerd4hire]

Well, we know one thing for sure. Rene's not the traitor.

There may possibly have been an interesting clue in the letters page. People kept asking him if so and so was going to make an appearance, and he would answer with a definitive "NO". Then somebody asked him about Drusilla, and he was evasive.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I also can't believe Buffy set fire to the captured vampire. I thought that that was a very un-heroic and un-Buffy thing to do. I can understand it in light of her new position of general of an army though.

How come? He's a killer, a vampire and she's a *vampire slayer.* I don't have a problem with it, he didn't deserve any better.

 

[white avenger]

How come? He's a killer, a vampire and she's a *vampire slayer.* I don't have a problem with it, he didn't deserve any better.

Vampires have been incinerated before on both "Buffy," and "Angel." I don't see sny problem with Buffy doing it now. It's no worse than staking or beheading.

 

[Kean]

Vampires have been incinerated before on both "Buffy," and "Angel." I don't see sny problem with Buffy doing it now. It's no worse than staking or beheading.

Yeah as far back as Hemery High Buffy has been setting vamps on fire. They are just as dead if you stake them. I don't see the problem with it either.

 

[Canon]

Buffy obviously couldn't let the vamp go, so her only choices were to leave him in the box and let him starve or set him on fire, the latter being the most humane option. So I thought she did the right thing.

 

[Allycat]

My problem with Buffy burning the vampire is not about the modus operandi. That I'm fine with the burning; my problem is with killing the vampire to begin with.

One of the themes of the season seems to be the different interpretations of good. Buffy has her version, Twilight has his. Buffy thinks it's okay to rob a bank to fund the Slayer army. And appareantly she also thinks that it's okay to kill a prisoner of war after succesfuly questioning him.

What is even more unsettling is that the struggle between Twilight and the Slayers has been called a war time and again. And in war, the Geneva Convetions come into play, especially the third one, about treatment of Prisoners of War. Killing them is not allowed. If you think about it, Buffy's committed a war crime. I don't think that's very heroic.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I don't think that this war is quite the same thing. Leaving out that Buffy and her Slayers aren't a nation and haven't signed the Geneva Convention, they're fighting something way more sinister than enemy soldiers. If Buffy had treated the vampire like a traditional prisoner of war, he'd have killed them all (or at least tried to). A traditional POW can't really do that because they're weaponless and locked in a cell that's being guarded, or tied up, or something. The vampire was not any of those things.

 

[Allycat]

I don't think that this war is quite the same thing. Leaving out that Buffy and her Slayers aren't a nation and haven't signed the Geneva Convention, they're fighting something way more sinister than enemy soldiers. If Buffy had treated the vampire like a traditional prisoner of war, he'd have killed them all (or at least tried to). A traditional POW can't really do that because they're weaponless and locked in a cell that's being guarded, or tied up, or something. The vampire was not any of those things.

Carolina's Grasp seemed to be able to hold him pretty well.

And obviously, the comparison doesn't work a 100%. In most human conflicts, soldiers only kill other soldiers and not civilians. Although all too often that's not true either. Anyway, the vampire obviously wouldn't only try to kill Slayers, but also humans. Furthermore, as you pointed out, the vampire is armed at all times. So I realise that it's a difficult multi-faceted moral dillema.

But you can't deny that killing a defenceless prisoner is a little bit wrong.