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Discussion of Angel 11.06 - Released 6/21/17 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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#1
Aboard a ship in the middle of the ocean, Angel has not succeeded in avoiding his past self, Angelus. He must escape Angelus, keep Fred safe, and also determine what must be done with the jewel-like beetle that has ties to the future. When the beetle turns out to be something stranger than anyone could have imagined, Angel’s focus turns to survival rather than saving the future . . .

Source: Dark Horse
 
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#2
Happy to say I enjoyed this issue :)

Angel fights Angelus, which is fun. Fred talks about finding another cave and Angel tells her he's seen worse talents. Angel is finally getting some memory changes, so we know the future has been changed, though we're still not sure how. There are some nice panels of beetles bursting out of people's heads which are pretty cool.

It's still not great and I still have no idea where the story is leading, but at least this issues was exciting, there were battles with pirates and Illyria makes an appearance and could end up killing Angelus. The issue ends with the tag line 'Next week; vampires and zombies and priates, oh my!' which was cheesy but I liked it.
 
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#3
What have they indicated has changed in Angel's memories? I'm not sure if it makes sense that he is aware of the change changing. If his history alters his current then it will have always been thus for him, if you see what I mean. The issues of how they are handling the ripples from this time travel jaunt is a key problem for me with this plotline.

I definitely will get the trades when they come out, it is canon so I want to be fully up to date with it and that's why I'm following people's comments. Mostly people seem pretty uncertain or dislike it. It was the poor voicing/writing that had me stop buying the digitals.
 
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#4
What have they indicated has changed in Angel's memories? I'm not sure if it makes sense that he is aware of the change changing. If his history alters his current then it will have always been thus for him, if you see what I mean. The issues of how they are handling the ripples from this time travel jaunt is a key problem for me with this plotline.

I definitely will get the trades when they come out, it is canon so I want to be fully up to date with it and that's why I'm following people's comments. Mostly people seem pretty uncertain or dislike it. It was the poor voicing/writing that had me stop buying the digitals.
I'm not sure what has changed in Angel's memories, though he tells Fred he can feel a change :confused: They don't flash forward to Angel at another time to show the changes, so the audience is never shown what's been changed.

I haven't been sure what's actually going on here since the first issue and I'm not sure the writers do either. There is no sense of purpose or through line. Nothing that happend on Illyria's world in the first few issues seemed to be related to Angel at all. At least now he and Fred are on a boat with Angelus and Darla it feels that it has some connection to Angel himself.

If I'm being honest, it's a pretty oddly written and badly drawn comic, with a few interesting happenings. I am slightly worried that the publishers are running the comic into the ground, especially since Faith was taken off the title.
 
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#5
The title definitely hasn't done well since Gage/Isaacs left, although Gischler was miles better than this. It feels as if they are just trying to space fill with Angel/Fred/Illyria here and separating from Faith for this adds to that sense of it being disjointed/random this season. But there must be some intention driving it for some purpose/value to be gained. Discovering something new about Angel from his past doesn't seem to be the point in it all, so I have to assume that changing something accidentally or intentionally is going to be. I can't see how they could stomp through the past and not influence the present. But Angel 'knowing' that some change is occurring makes no logical sense to me, I'm struggling with that.

Wasn't it Fred that Angel had that Irish jaunt with in S10 too? I don't like the way they have opted to return Fred to be honest, so I'm not an easy sell on her stories since which isn't helping me. But there are too many characters to just have one title, so I'm not sure they would be intentionally slowing this one. It does feel odd though, the choices they've made here combined with Faith's lack of season (although I liked her popping up in BtVS, I can't see her staying there easily).
 
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#6
The title definitely hasn't done well since Gage/Isaacs left, although Gischler was miles better than this. It feels as if they are just trying to space fill with Angel/Fred/Illyria here and separating from Faith for this adds to that sense of it being disjointed/random this season. But there must be some intention driving it for some purpose/value to be gained. Discovering something new about Angel from his past doesn't seem to be the point in it all, so I have to assume that changing something accidentally or intentionally is going to be. I can't see how they could stomp through the past and not influence the present. But Angel 'knowing' that some change is occurring makes no logical sense to me, I'm struggling with that.
I'm not sure what the value is. I think it's just that the publishers know the die-hard fans will keep buying it, no matter what, because it doesn't feel like any effort has been put into the story. Unless there will be one big reveal in the last issue that somehow changes everything?

Angel actually clutches his head (imagine Spike when his chip fires), Fred asks if he's okay and he replies 'It's just that I can feel my memories . . . changing. It's like I have two sets now, side by side. Weird sensation. But I'm okay, really'

Wasn't it Fred that Angel had that Irish jaunt with in S10 too? I don't like the way they have opted to return Fred to be honest, so I'm not an easy sell on her stories since which isn't helping me. But there are too many characters to just have one title, so I'm not sure they would be intentionally slowing this one. It does feel odd though, the choices they've made here combined with Faith's lack of season (although I liked her popping up in BtVS, I can't see her staying there easily).
Yes Fred and Angel went to Ireland in season 10. I'm not a big fan of Fred's return. I'd rather he was travelling with Faith, but maybe they thought Faith was a better fit with the Buffy story and the Slayers losing their powers? I agree, they can't keep Faith on the Buffy title, she's a much better fit with Angel. I loved their joint title, they worked so well together.

By the way, the art in the Angel comic is terrible. At first I could barely recognise anyone :(
 
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#7
Yeah I agree the art isn't good at all on the likenesses. I quite liked the detail in the dream sequence spread in the first issue though. But I thought Fred was an odd Faith at first glance, very curvy and not at all like AA.

I suppose I can see the argument that both sets of memories could be present. I doubt a lot of general ones would necessarily stand out as alternate even, unless you were certain for some reason on specific dates/places/events. How much different experiences would have to veer onto a different course to change your personality, to change you fundamentally I suppose is debateable. If they want to ignore that they can just decree nothing substantial enough differed. It is a little more ropey on that front with the way they changed Illyria's past though I'd have thought. Time will tell on whether there will be any character development achieved from all this. :s
 
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#8
Just read this one.

Angel's memories changing is interesting... also, I laughed at that ending!
 

Mrs Gordo

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#9
But we never find out how they changed! :( Where is the follow through?
 
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#10
But we never find out how they changed! :( Where is the follow through?
I mean... I haven’t read the rest yet so I just thought it was interesting... bummed that there isn’t any follow through though...

Also, today is the big day right? Not that I’m setting myself up for disappointment. I know there’s a 95% chance it’ll be lame.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#11
lso, today is the big day right? Not that I’m setting myself up for disappointment. I know there’s a 95% chance it’ll be lame.
Is it coming out today? I thought I had to wait till 21st. @Grace have you got the digital copy yet?
 

Grace

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#14
As @Mylie noted, one of the big developments here is that Angel says his memories are changing. He says he has two sets now, side by side. (Which makes zero sense if they're literally changing history, but again, I'm not letting silly things like "making sense" bother me with this season!)

A little later, Angel tells Fred what happened the first time with the pirate attack, which included the ship sinking. Fred, of course, reacts to that and says they need to get everyone off the ship. That leads Angel to say: "Right, because this isn't just the past. It matters now... I have to stop using my memories as a guide and start treating this like--"

Also, the ending, with Illyria impulsively doing something that might kill Angel's past self, echoes her impulsive decision to kill her own past self in the first arc.

One small note re: the original vision. Angel holds Fred against him to prevent the beetles from lodging in her forehead in this issue, so that's one possible moment that could be the hug in the vision. But Angel's facial expression makes me think it's the hug in the final arc
with his sister
that we're seeing there.

But we never find out how they changed! :( Where is the follow through?
There was a Q&A with Corinna Bechko on The Forum That Cannot Be Named around the time of issue #5, and she had this to say, which is really annoying:

2. Vampire in Rug: Will it be explained how changes in the timeline affect the present? For instance now Illyria has known Angel and Fred since before the Deeper Well. Wouldn't that change how Season 5 plays out? Angelus and Darla have now met Fred, surely they would recognize her as that girl on the boat hundreds of years ago when they meet her in the show?

CSB: A lot of that will be handled in the last arc, but there's a good argument to be made that there are changes that have happened like that. Of course, depending on what you believe about time travel, it could change the future, or it could create a branching future. Since I can't personally go back and change episodes of the show, I leave it to the reader to decide which of these things is true.
 
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#15
Yes it was a very frustrating answer. Of course we wouldn't expect to see what ripple effects happened to the past, the original paths taken, for the individual episodes and could assume nothing of significance altered from the story we had already seen unless told otherwise. But it is ridiculous to try and wave away them having previously met as not clearly going to have had noticeable impact. Trying to just shrug it away as 'possibly branching off' is all well and good if it wasn't also showing how it is affecting the here and now of the universe we are following. Not only in the repercussions after they return but, I've been led to believe, one of the aunts is now dating a demon that was a previously extinct species which they saved early on. So the changes are unquestionably affecting the reality of the universe they are in, not creating an alternate elsewhere. o_O
 

Grace

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#16
Not only in the repercussions after they return but, I've been led to believe, one of the aunts is now dating a demon that was a previously extinct species which they saved early on. So the changes are unquestionably affecting the reality of the universe they are in, not creating an alternate elsewhere. o_O
Yes, exactly! And the entire point of going to the past to "fix" it would be moot if all they could do was create branching timelines instead of affecting their own universe.
 

thetopher

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#17
Well, this was a mess, but at least it was kind of a fun, interesting mess. Angel facing off against Darla and Angelus whilst pirates and forehead-hatching bugs zip about. Plus the boat being on fire. The writers are just throwing everything out there, which is another way to treat time-travel I guess, liker a merry romp through various cool, historical settings.

We've known that the future can be altered since the last arc where Angel discovers that one of Giles' aunts is dating a distant relative of the tribe he saved, so I figured that the question 'can we alter the present' has been definitively answered.

Anyway so far this is flowing better than the Illria arc, I'm just not sure where itsa going. A lot of my enjoyment of the season will probably hinge on what this is all leading up to.
 
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#18
Yeah I agree the art isn't good at all on the likenesses. I quite liked the detail in the dream sequence spread in the first issue though. But I thought Fred was an odd Faith at first glance, very curvy and not at all like AA. :s
In the previous season I got very confused between Faith and Fred, I thought actors had some sort of clause that they had to agree when their image was used, AA must be very kind and generous
 
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