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Discussion of Angel 11.12 - Released 12/20/17 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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#1
Angel, Fred, and Illyria, back in the present, find they've changed history . . . for the worse. Theres a crack in time, and something monstrous, growing beyond control, has become the fount of an insect plague--a harbinger of the end of days! As Dublin is overrun, the trio must figure out how to destroy it, before it destroys . . . everything.

Source: Dark Horse
 
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Black Thorn
#2
Mirror, mirror on the wall
Who’s the silliest of them all?

Me, for thinking we were going to get a big twist ending!

I guess I didn’t hate it but I don’t think it makes sense.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#3
Ok @Grace you we’re right. What a joke.

I am so incredibly disappointed. The mirror meant nothing. So it was a mistake then? If a mistake why didn’t they at least address the mistake in Slay the Critics?

@Grace you we’re right about the ring. If what about their past selves? Did they go travel in time after all?? What about all of the “we changed time” no consequences? Are they saving it for next Season, because I really don’t want anymore of this.

There was some confusion on my part:

- why did Illyria say “you aren’t a God, at least not anymore” huh? When was he a god?
- Angel asks “is it my fault” and Illyria says somewhat and says something about being in a time and place. But umm no it’s clearly not heir faults if at least on accident they brought back stuff with them that made the flower monsters grow. But we never get an answer to why the flower monsters were there to begin with do we? Or did I miss that? I mean the reason they left was because Angel got a vision that he needed to change something in his past... and then we just don’t resolve that?
- So at the end of the panel is Fred admitting she has feelings for Angel? With the “It’s complicated” statement?

And why doesn’t the slay the critics section have any emails? I know people have sent emails. People have been very upset about this season.

I guess the point of all of this is to get Angel to undertand that if he can accept fault he should learn to accept praise? That is the big lesson he is supposed to have learned? I didn’t see it.

Honestly truthfully I have read better fan fiction on ff.net than we got in this comic. I don’t know why I psyched myself into thinking they could redeem themselves by giving an big or exciting reveal. I did the same thing in thinking all these crazy twists about Buffy and at the end it ended with a big fat anticlimactic nothing. At least Buffy s11 made sense though. It had a theme and story and follow through.

I’m sorry I’m being so pessimistic. I am just upset.
 
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#4
This sounds like a big letdown but I didn’t expect much so I’m not surprised or too disppointed. Though this does bring some of the bitterness around Joss taking Gage away from the series back.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#5
I should clarify that I meant @Grace was right about the mirror not coming into play not that she said it was a joke. That second part is my opinion.
 
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#6
Ok @Grace you we’re right. What a joke.
Well, I wasn't really. I definitely began to believe something was coming. I'm the one who went back and read the whole season over, looking for clues! I even took notes! ::cry laugh emoji::

I am so incredibly disappointed. The mirror meant nothing. So it was a mistake then? If a mistake why didn’t they at least address the mistake in Slay the Critics?
I am kind of wondering if it was intentional, in the same way that Fred's shadow at the end looked like Old One Illyria. Fred is Illyria is Old One Illyria. Angel is Angelus is Liam. I don't know.

@Grace you we’re right about the ring. If what about their past selves? Did they go travel in time after all?? What about all of the “we changed time” no consequences? Are they saving it for next Season, because I really don’t want anymore of this.
So, unless we get evidence to the contrary, my head canon is going to be that killing the flower restored the timeline to its factory default settings. So Angel, Illyria and Fred remember their journey but all of the consequences were wiped out, so their past selves don't remember meeting their future selves. That's the only way I can make sense of it right now. I think the only thing that would contradict it is if Arev turns up in the future, and then my brain might explode. So we'll see.

- why did Illyria say “you aren’t a God, at least not anymore” huh? When was he a god?
That's a Twilight reference. But I think Twilight was actually a sentient reality, right? I don't expect Illyria to get that right, though. She doesn't even remember that she's a genderless god-king and not a goddess. :)

- Angel asks “is it my fault” and Illyria says somewhat and says something about being in a time and place. But umm no it’s clearly not heir faults if at least on accident they brought back stuff with them that made the flower monsters grow. But we never get an answer to why the flower monsters were there to begin with do we? Or did I miss that? I mean the reason they left was because Angel got a vision that he needed to change something in his past... and then we just don’t resolve that?
It is *super* unclear, and I welcome other thoughts on this, please! But my initial take is that Angel going back to Ireland, where he also lived as Liam and Angelus, somehow cracked reality/time, as Fred said in #11, and that allowed the flower monster to creep in. I'm not sure if they could have killed the flower when it was a bud (as Fred originally suggested, I think?), or how they could have otherwise healed the crack in time. Illyria was the one who made the decision to travel back in time, but that seems to have been motivated by her own guilt over the volcano eruption more than anything. And I guess the swashbuckling arc was actually about healing the problems they created by stopping the volcano erupting in Illyria's kingdom and letting off the pressure with a different eruption? But it was all ultimately a mistake, since meeting up with Angelus especially made things worse? I have no idea what the bugs were all about.

It does seem like they needed to visit Angel's past as Liam and get Kathy's ring to ultimately destroy the flower monster. As in, Angel had to make peace with the other parts of himself to like unify himself and ultimately heal the crack? Maybe?

- So at the end of the panel is Fred admitting she has feelings for Angel? With the “It’s complicated” statement?
I definitely took it as a thrupley ending, yes. That Fred could have but didn't stop things with Angel and Illyria because she wasn't really opposed to it.
 
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#7
I haven't got my copy yet, but this all sounds really depressing. So Angel's reflection was a mistake? Nothing happened and nothing changed :mad: I actually feel like a fool for getting excited for something big to happen. What the hell was this season about then? :oops:
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#8
That's a Twilight reference. But I think Twilight was actually a sentient reality, right? I don't expect Illyria to get that right, though. She doesn't even remember that she's a genderless god-king and not a goddess. :)
Yeah I don't remember Twilight ever being referred to as a god but it has been a while. It was a universe/entity/reality. "The universe is correcting itself" that is what comes to mind. And he was not Twilight, he was possessed by Twilight so I would take issue if Illyria was making a Twilight reference.

You make some overall good points, your head canons do seem to tie in a few things together but I have to say that it would have been nice to see more of that on the pages themselves. We shouldn't have to color in so much in between the lines should we?

I definitely took it as a thrupley ending, yes. That Fred could have but didn't stop things with Angel and Illyria because she wasn't really opposed to it.
So does Angel have feeling for one or both of them? We seem to have only got one perspective. I guess they wanted to leave it open ended?
 
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Black Thorn
#9
Yeah I don't remember Twilight ever being referred to as a god but it has been a while. It was a universe/entity/reality. "The universe is correcting itself" that is what comes to mind. And he was not Twilight, he was possessed by Twilight so I would take issue if Illyria was making a Twilight reference.
Illyria said this back in #1:


So maybe she meant more having the powers of a god than actually being a god.

You make some overall good points, your head canons do seem to tie in a few things together but I have to say that it would have been nice to see more of that on the pages themselves. We shouldn't have to color in so much in between the lines should we?
The problem with my head canons is that the more I think about them, the more holes I come up with. I have no idea if I'm even close to what they were going for. Also, @Priceless, has Spike been to London since getting his soul back? Because that would mess up my theory.

I think not giving us a solid reason that time cracked in the first place is crappy and unfair to people who stuck with the whole season. Pretending like the time travel caused the problem without addressing that the flower had already begun to invade their reality is just...UGH. Hopefully someone else can crack the code for me.

So does Angel have feeling for one or both of them? We seem to have only got one perspective. I guess they wanted to leave it open ended?
He seemed to be pretty receptive to both, to me. It seemed to me like he was kind of blushing at what Fred said. But it also seems like they could totally drop it. I will say that Frangyria is more interesting to me than Illangel or Frangel, but it's hard to see them going that route.
 
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#10
The problem with my head canons is that the more I think about them, the more holes I come up with. I have no idea if I'm even close to what they were going for. Also, @Priceless, has Spike been to London since getting his soul back? Because that would mess up my theory.
Yes Spike came to help Faith and Angel resurrect Giles in Season 9
 
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#12
I’m personally very much against both ships. Angel/Illyria because it’s so out of nowhere and I don’t like what it represents. Angel/Fred because it bores me so much... and I’m also not a fan of their dynamic. I’d say the last 2 seasons have made me annoyed with Fred’s character when I used to just be indifferent to her. It’s probably irrational but I hate that this is the relationship for Angel that they decided to focus on. Angel/Faith was so interesting and meaningful but this? I just don’t care and I am bored out of my mind. They never should have brought back Fred.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#13
I'm going to go ahead and say it - Angel Season 11 is the worst Season that has ever been produced by a Buffyverse creative team, hands down. Fight me. lol. Even if I disagreed with stories the comics did on the past (Twilight) or hated the directions characters were headed (Buffy and Spike) I could at least appreciate that I was being told a clear and cohesive story. I do not understand anything they did in this season. I don’t understand what if any weight or impact it had for Angel or the verse. They cannot open endless numbers of “cans of worms” (i.e. why the flower was there to begin with, how Illyria’s changing the volcano impacted the present, what happened to Angelus/Darla, how else they changed the future, who sent Angel he vision???, what it meant that Angel was visible in the mirror? etc etc) without resolving them. It is an insult to your readers. We pay close attention to these things because being in the verse we have learned that metaphors pay off. There appears to be no pay off here.
 

GraceK

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#14
Honestly I was turned off by the Angel comics as soon I read about Daddy Issues. Angel deciding to kill that demon and re traumatize Drusilla just because he didn’t agree made me really angry and I haven’t been able to forgive him. He has no right to decide for everyone in the world how they should deal with their own traumas and him taking away the choice for people to heal themselves enrAged me. Angel seems to feel that everyone HAS to suffer and feel horrible just because he does . So hearing what I am hearing about this season doesn’t even surprise me. I rather keep the memory I have of Angel through the shows. Almost everything i have read about the comics seem to have turned Angel into a real asshole.sorry if this was off topic, I just needed to vent.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#15
They never should have brought back Fred.
And you know, that’s another thing. I love Fred. I really do. But have we really had a good explanation as to how Fred is back? I mean it’s not her soul right it’s memories that sorda made Illyria more Fred like?

And I agree that neither of those relationships are my favorite. But Angel and Illyria bothers me the most. She is cold and distant and I want more for him.
 
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Black Thorn
#17
Start thinking of your questions, because Corinna Bechko is going to do a Q&A over at ********* (you know what I mean) next week. I don't know if I can even bother with submitting a question but I will read her answers.

Also, just in case anyone was curious, this was the Frangyria-ish panel:


(Also, if someone can explain why mentions of that forum get censored, I would like to know. That's where the comics writers interact with fans, so there's a legitimate reason to refer to it.)
 

Buffy Summers

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#18
Because they have asked that we do not link to their forum or repost things here from there. Also that board was built by ripping off this one (copying and pasting our forum titles and descriptions), continues to rip off our ideas, and has staff which comes to our board and chat to harass our members, and so we do not feel comfortable sending our members there.
 
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Black Thorn
#19
Because they have asked that we do not link to their forum or repost things here from there. Also that board was built by ripping off this one (copying and pasting our forum titles and descriptions), continues to rip off our ideas, and has staff which comes to our board and chat to harass our members, and so we do not feel comfortable sending our members there.
Thanks for the answer. I'm sorry to hear that.